It'd be nice to be able to see the kitchen a little closer up so we can see dimensions and details. At first glance I'd say that I would consider swapping the stove and sink. It would solve your hood vent issue (vent straight outside) and if you're going to have little ones at the bar on the dining room side, I'd rather have them over a sink than the range. You could put windows to either side of the range.

Which side is South facing in your drawing? And what's that square thing between the LR and DR, a fireplace?

It looks like your kitchen + eat-in area is really only about 15' x 23.5' (accounting for the walls...outside walls, IIRC, are 6" deep & that's what they look like in your layout).

Item 3...did you mean to say that you are willing to sacrifice storage for south-facing windows or are not willing to sacrifice storage?

As RHome410 suggested, definitely move the range/cooktop to the exterior wall!

How would you feel about eliminating the knee wall b/w the eating area & the kitchen and putting in an island w/seating instead...assuming it would work with traffic flow & aisle clearances?

If you do a "U" shaped kitchen, the cooking, prepping, and cleaning up zones are protected from most traffic:

An island setup is more open, but that also means less protection of the cooking zone in particular. If you keep it close to the corner, it's protected somewhat:

Both of the above layouts have:

• Two 30" windows flanking the refrigerator

• A pantry 8'6" wide by 18" deep (this could solve the dilemma of deciding b/w windows and storage on the south wall) It could hold not just food but also small appliances.

• Aisles wide enough to allow 2 or more cooks

• Plenty of counterspace...especially the first layout ("U")

• MW could go in the corner or could be installed under one of the upper cabinets. If it's in the budget, you might consider a MW drawer...but they're pricey for a MW.

• For both, dish storage is on the east wall.

• The 12" cabinets to the left of the sink in both layouts could be tray storage (cookie sheets, cooling racks, muffin tins, etc.)

Here's an alternate South wall w/one 30" window and one 42" window:

In the first LO you could also put the stove in the corner area (by DR).

I see someone has added cabinets on the back wall (by deck door) - how about running cabinets from refridge and on around to the door? tho that will give you yet another corner cab area...

I do like the island LO better - gives you easy access to sink / stove from the table. I'd get tired of walking all the way around by the end of the first week of doing it.

could you add a shallow depth pantry along the wall above the deck door (by the 'whatever' boxed in in the DR)? It could be floor to ceiling and even be part hutch for dishes and special items. Then the storage area in the back corner could remain counter height below windows.

a window on each side of the stove would be nice also.

you could move the sink to the back corner area (right of fridge) with corner windows... but then your back would be to anyone at island or table.

or you could keep a 'stubby' peninsula by the DR and put the sink in corner area there. just 'stubby' enough to allow for sink/DW. and should be able to still fit in a smaller island?

Wow, thanks for the great ideas!

rhome - I'll have to post a better detail tonight when I get home. I like the idea of swapping the sink and range, but I'm concerned about losing either windows or storage. I guess it's always a trade off...

sara_m - South facing is down. The box thing in the DR is a woodstove. This can be moved. So could everything else in the large room, except the stairs and north windows. The woodstove needs clear access to the front door for hauling wood. Also, it needs to be in the addition part of the room or right along the joint between the two halves because of where the stove pipe will run through the upstairs.

buehl - I really like the island plan you laid out. The flow of traffic looks MUCH better to me. I'll play with the layout some more tonight... THANK YOU! BTW, we won't have a microwave, so it's not a consideration. But, I guess our toaster over will take the same space... I've seen in other posts that you've thought about "beverage (coffee) centers." Do you have any thoughts about where such a center might go in this layout?

desertsteph - I'm intrigued by your ideas of putting the stove/sink in the corners. I guess I haven't really seen that layout in anyone's house. Any opinions about how that works and uses space?

Thanks evryone!

Aaren

FYI - here's the tentative upstairs of the house. Bedroom at top left and office/playroom/den at the top of the drawing.

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I like the Island plan too, but I'd like to see a version of that with the fridge next to the dining room table, and the range centered on the south wall.
Then move the sink to the east wall to the right of the fridge.

What do you think about this crazy idea? Moving the whole kitchen to the north side? It gives us the walk in pantry? Is it ridiculously wide between the stove and sink?

Arrrgh! I should just decide and be done...

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OK, I put together your suggestions and I love the layout! It does seem to make the LR and DR a bit more cramped than the layout above. But, as DH says, your layout is more kitchen focused and the "north kitchen" layout is more LR focused. We spend LOTS of time in the kitchen, not so much lounging on the couch.

So let me know what you think of this plan...

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Your space is very, very similar to mine, and the island layouts pictured are very close to what I did. You have a little more width to work with, which would allow for a bigger island or wider aisles. I find this layout to be extremely functional.

And here's what it looks like in 3-D, looking from the dining area into the kitchen...

OK, I've decided I definitely like the layout that's similar to holligator's. In part because it was pointed out to me that the stove is a primary fire risk and by having the stove by the stairs, we'd be blocking our main fire escape!

Two questions:

1. Should I have the refrigerator in its current location, or swap places with the stove?

2. We currently have no hood vent. Above the stove we have a lovely hanging copper pot rack. Does anyone see a good place to put such a rack? It seems like it would be a big visual obstruction over the island...

Thanks for all your help!!!

Aaren

With 2 avid cooks, I'd suggest the addition of a prep sink, as in Holligator's plan, and more of a zone plan instead of the work triangle. I know it'd be nice to have the fridge near the table, but I'd rather have it nearer the stove end of the kitchen. Where it is now, it takes the best dish storage location and is kind of a tall visual block between the kitchen and the rest of the house. An attractive dish storage unit would be much nicer.

This would be my suggestion:

Or this, which leaves the fridge where you have it above, but gives you more window on the south:

I really like both of rhome's latest suggestions and can see the benefits of each. I had only two reasons that we didn't swap the refrigerator and stove, and only one of them was a decent reason. The opening that's directly across from the end of our table goes into our living room, and the wall where I put my stove is very visible. I simply didn't want to look at the big stainless blob of a fridge from the living room. The stove and hood is more attractive, in my opinion, so they got the visible spot.

The other reason is that it seemed odd to me to have the narrow end of my island opposite my stove, given that the main purpose of the island is for prepping. I've since seen many kitchens here that have that setup and seem to work beautifully, so it doesn't seem odd at all to me now.

It would be kind of nice to have the fridge more accessible from the table, but as rhome said, it would create a visual barrier to the rest of the kitchen (could be a good or bad thing, depending on what you're going for). Plus, I have never once thought that the distance from my table to the fridge posed a problem. We often get up during meals to get something from the fridge, and it has never seemed like a hike.

The one suggestion I would make is to shorten the kitchen part of the area a bit. Although, as I pointed out, your space is more than a foot wider than mine, it is also almost a foot shorter than mine (24' vs. 24'10"). My dining area takes up significantly more of the space than what you have allocated on your plans, and I really can't imagine it being any less--especially if you need to angle the table. Plus, we have a separate formal dining area, so we don't even do much entertaining in there besides extended family.

I think you would be better served to have a shorter and slightly wider island and a shorter run of cabinets and appliances on the right wall. Then, use more of the left wall, as in rhome's plans. That is, focus more of the kitchen into the bottom portion of your space and leave more room for table and chairs at the other end, especially since it looks like this is your only dining area. The wall just below your wood stove could have a hutch or some other dish storage unit, which would further define that space as dining area versus kitchen.

Thanks so much for your advice! Of course now we've reconsidered some things. The current deck that we have is mostly rotten and has been half removed. When we rebuild it, we'd put it in a sunnier location, rather than its current location. So... I've moved the door to the other side of the building. What do you think?

I like your previous layout much better. Seating at that table seems quite cramped and I don't care at all for the angled island. I'm probably biased, though, because your previous layout is almost exactly like mine, except that your space is wider, giving you the option of putting your fridge closer to your stove.

I've seen a number of kitchens with the stove in a corner area and with the sink in a corner area. they are most often such awkward areas in a kitchen. with the stove in one it utilizes the space above with the hood/vent. then a regular straight stretch of wall can be used for cabinets instead of the stove hood/vent. and the stove fills in that big corner area quite nicely.
My sister had a sink corner area a few yrs ago w/ a window on the left side (to her land out back; the other side backed up to a bathroom) - if both sides of the corner are outside walls you could have a great corner window around the sink. Again the plumbing underneath in the corner area is a better use for that awkward space - leaving another straight stretch of cabinets along a wall for other storage - with easier access to it. If I get some time I'll see if I can find a few online...
Not knowing how you work in the kitchen or how your family functions a consideration would be that at back corners your back would often be to the DR/LR area - and family/friends? The corner by the table/peninsula tho would have you facing toward that area.

Another good use of corner areas is for one of those floor to ceiling cabinet pantries - with pull out shelves inside. One could be for food storage and one for dish/pot/pan storage. Or those upper cabs that come down to the counter - and give you a 'hidden counter area' for things like the toaster, stand mixer etc. So easy and accessible to just pull out of there and use. some people have even had sockets wired inside of that area. A gf of mine had a socket wired into her wall pantry - she keeps her toaster in there and she just slide that shelf out, plugs the toaster in there for use (never taking it off it's shelf). when done, she unplugs it and slides the shelf back in and closes the door.

It looks like your kitchen could be arranged in a number of ways all giving you a lot of storage!

If most of the light there comes from the south you probably want as many windows a possible and practical on your south wall and / or SE / SW walls.

I do like the table / chairs farther away for the kitchen work area. It seems that it would be nice by the woodstove AND the patio doors (good place to have coffee and look out at the beautiful nature and maybe animals?) It'd also be extra sitting near the LR area in case it's needed.

your 'new' house look like it will not only be lovely, but cozy and very workable!

The deck doesn't really change the kitchen layout, and I'm sorry to say I don't like this last one at all.

I really don't like an angled island...A lot of floor space used for not much work area and corners to run into.

The corner counter to the left of the fridge becomes fairly useless with the fridge so close...Dark and very difficult to access...even if it was a full-size lazy susan cabinet, which when I look at the rest of the kitchen, I don't think this one is. (The L shape on the front where the access doors are should be 12" in each direction)

I much prefer the island to the peninsula, which offers less seating space and crowds the table and the walkway. You really don't have enough room there for a table. The walkway is too small and the table is too close to the wall for people to get in and out of chairs. You have approx 1 ft where you should have almost 3 ft behind the table.

I would encourage a larger window by the sink and equally sized windows on either side of the range.

I am biased, I know, but I find so many things to like about the plans I drew over this one. Are there things about them that you don't like? If you could tell us your opinions (think out loud for us), we could all move from there with your wishes and reservations in mind.

Great suggestions! What do folks think about putting the stove/sink in the corners? I liked the old layout a lot, but we really do want the door on the east side. Does anyone see a good way to get rid of the penninsula and butcher block and add an island?

Thanks for all your fantistic feedback!

I found a thread here on gardenweb on corner stoves!

and a few pics of corner sinks, a few articles on corner sinks and pics of corner storage - site addresses listed.

I'm not sure I like the new sinks made just for corners tho. I do like a regular sink angled on the corner.

haven't looked at your new LO w/ corner stove/sink - will go look now!

http://www.kitchenplace.com/Temp/GANDY/gandy.html

http://kitchenbathideas.com/kitchen-design/storage/kitchen-corner-solutions/?page=7

http://www.ikeafans.com/forums/modifications/1407-angled-corner-sink.html

https://www.casaguru.com/a/-/j/66183/A-Stylish-Corner-Sink-Maximizes-Space-in-Your-Kitchen

http://www.kitchensinksetc.com/corner-kitchen-sink-undermount.php

http://www.diychatroom.com/f80/anybody-install-own-corner-kitchen-sink-also-rta-cabs-36728/

http://kitchenbathideas.com/kitchen-design/storage/kitchen-corner-solutions/?page=12

http://kitchenbathideas.com/kitchen-design/storage/kitchen-corner-solutions/?page=13

Here is a link that might be useful: corner stove

I sure like how some of you can make those LOs of the kitchen - and rearrange things like that! what program are you using? is there a cheap one available? and easy... I'm not really into figuring programs out anymore like i used to do. My brain just shuts down (I don't even use PSE).

would the fridge really look that bad on the end? what if there was a 'wall' at the end - continued from the cab over the fridge? I always like the fridge on an end - I think it's easier down the road if it needs replaced (and for pulling out to clean behind it). If you later want a bigger one etc you might not be able to get it because you're limited in space - it might be a 1/2 inch - inch too small for that next hot fridge you want in 5 yrs. lol!

what do you (and others) think of the corner uses? you may not even like it - everyone is different! I just don't like those corner areas for storage. A lot of people don't even use them much - consider them wasted space. Some of those pull out storage things cost a fortune. tho, I have seen where they are now making drawers to go in that area. They probably cost a bundle too.
I'm waffling on just letting my corner space (base area) just be a dead area unless I can angle it there and put drawers in it. I can't move my hood/vent area or I'd consider putting my stove in the corner.

Here is a link that might be useful: corner cabinet drawers

Personally, I think corner installations can be a good answer in layouts and rooms that don't have other answers, or in which it somehow offers something extra. The same with a movable butcher block...Only if it's the only way to get the workspace. I don't think that's the case with you. You have a fantastic amount of space in which to arrange things to optimum advantage. The corner plan has all sorts of counter space where you don't need it and little where you'd want plenty, plus more limited light/windows and traffic flow. You have so much room and other ways to get a better kitchen.

Sorry to keep being negative today. I'll shut up now.

OK, I really appreciate all your input! I think I like the corner sink, after reading all the glowing praise that folks had, but I ditched the corner stove and changed the peninsula for an island.

What do you think about this layout? Any strong objections to the corner sink? I've really the valued the input so far!

Thanks!

I think that last LO looks very good! you have your work triangle - out of the way of traffic. the fridge is on the outside - so someone can get into it w/o getting in the cook's way...there's nothing blocking your vision to the table or wood stove... you've got more windows/more light - and a view while at the sink. looks like a good amount of counter space to work on etc.

and you have 1 corner area for a LZ...

maybe someone else sees something I don't (that wouldn't be a surprise - those of you with so much experience see so much that I miss!)

Or the reverse. I still haven't been able to figure out south. Plus what rhome said.

Plus have some concern about the wood stove clearance to the table - depends a bit on where groceries come into the house. Maybe do the entire eating area in non combustible flooring so it didn't look quite so cramped?

Plus the location of the sliding door behind the table? Imagine ferrying food platers and stuff. Can trade slider for triplet window.

Rhome gets to be Grumpy if I get to be Dopey.

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Grumpy says Dopey's plan seems to be an improved version of one of hers and likes it very much. :-)

The problem with the plan from yesterday (besides, again, the shortage of counter around stove and sink as they share, and fewer window when you expressed desire for more) is that you're trying for a work triangle, where, in this size kitchen, and most others, in fact, zones are much preferred and will be more efficient. Zones are basically a series of smaller triangles, using elements that are essential to each, without robbing from each other or creating traffic tie-ups. The separate zones are usually clean-up and cooking, with possibly snacking, dining, and/or baking, depending on the kitchen and the family's particular needs.

It would still be nice to have feedback on the plans the rest of us propose, instead of just a completely new idea, so we know what you like or don't like and can make changes or give opinion/advice/explanation.

One thing that may be happening is that you are thinking in terms of today...as a couple in a house without kids. When there are little ones, who later become big ones who help and bring in friends, the needs for a more flexible layout with better traffic patterns change and increase.

Really, I'm not trying to be Grumpy, but Helpful. :-) You have space for an amazing kitchen and we all want you to have one that will work amazingly for you through the next many and busy years.

I promise! Thanks for all your advice. I keep wandering around my existing house and trying to figure out lighting and views and spacing. So to get back to you on your comments...

desertsteph - I like this general idea of a layout too, but it does seem to need some tweaking. Thanks so much for the words of encouragement!

Dopey - To answer your questions (good ones!) South is towards the bottom of the image (out the sink window in your drawing). I totally agree about the cramped feeling, but we do spend most of our time in the kitchen area. The groceries will probably come in the front door (in image on May 17th). They'll have to travel all the way through the house. I've thought of that, but I like the kitchen on the south side for several reasons. The woodstove really can't move because of the layout of the upstairs and the chimney pass through and not wanting the stove at the far end from the stairs for heat transfer reasons. The sliding door will go to a deck and also will be the only access from the house to the garage/basement/shop. Our current parking is by the front door, and that will probably remain our primary entrance. But we can't get rid of the door. We may make it a glass French door or other style that's mostly glass. It is cramped to have it by the table, but it will also provide a good view...

After standing in my kitchen doing dishes and pondering the corner sink, I think I'm leaning away from the idea. If it were in the SW corner, I would have a lovely view of giant mossy trees and no neighbors. But the corner thing is a little weird.

My only real problem with your drawing is the lack of pantry/storage space. Why did you get rid of the pantry in exchange for the wider island?

Grumpy - I totally thought one of your previous drawings was fantastic. It was the basis for my last drawing. I basically mirrored it because I moved the door to the other side of the house.

I like your explanation of the problem of shared counters between the sink and stove. It makes a lot of sense to me! Is there a guide for how much space to leave between the two?

Thank you all for your help! It's really helping us to move in the right direction with this project!

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I don't know if a french door is really any better - it takes away space for the door swing and for open door storage. If you reverse the design, you get some flexibility on the door placement.

I didn't get rid of the pantry - I made it smaller and in two parts - one closer to the wood stove and the other wrapping the corner. In the reversed one above, added a small deep one on the far side of the ref and a slightly longer one on the wall with the slider.

As buehl said above, the interior space you'll have is a bit less than 15'. I don't know the exact finished width of your new addition, but if its built with 2x6" and drywall, it'll be something like 14.75 feet. A full depth counter is between 25 and 26"; both aisles should be at least 48" (yields minimum depth aisle for seating side and for about 42" clearance in front of the ref). 50" (both walls of cabinets) + 96" (both aisles) = 146".

In inches, the room is 177" - 146" of cabinets = 31" island width - and that's the finished top width. You might get an extra three inches or not depending on how its constructed.

When you have operating cabinets behind the stools, you should have about 5 feet of clearance to permit you to open the cabinet doors while people are seated. You aren't going to be able to have that and you might not be able to have enough counter overhang to support seating at all.

I think you tried to compensate with 18" deep pantry cabinets - which is ok. I'm showing you an alternate.

So, one wall of cabinets at full depth and the other at 12-15" depth (and not much of that) to account for the width of the room. It adds a bit of width to the island and adds more window for you to look out while prepping instead of facing a wall of closed cabinet doors.

If I was building this, I'd want open, bright and easy clearances. So, that's what I was thinking.