Will it work as an URL?

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1926321}}

Okay, one more closer in.

I'm posting this in response to several posters who responded on my "inset cabinets" thread, suggesting that I had some clearance and traffic issues. Please feel free to make suggestions.

We wanted two separate areas where I would be between range and prep area while hubby would be between prep area and sink/dishwasher.

Thanks :)

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1926322}}

{{gwi:1926321}}
{{gwi:1926322}}

You always get more responses when you embed the image in the post.

Things I see right off are your aisles are too narrow. You want 42" at minimum between working sections of the kitchen and you want 60" behind any seated diners for traffic. 72" if that's a major traffic route through the home. The route to stairs is a major traffic route through the home.

You have a bi-level island, which decreases it's usefulness and makes it more difficult for small children or older adults to sit at. While I'm a big advocate of separating the cleanup area from the prep area, the cleanup area is best located to the side of the prep and cooking area, but within reach. Taking your dirty dishes from the stove to the DW is a LOT of work in this kitchen. You have to play ring around the rosy with the prep island to manage to put your poly cutting boards into the DW. Now, if the butler's pantry were designed as a true butler's pantry, that's where the cleanup station would go, and it's close enough to the cooking and prep areas to just toss the dirties into a large sink there. And, it's where the dish storage would logically go. But, where are you envisioning storing dishes in your current plan?

There is a LOT of wasted space, duplicate space in the entire layout, but specifically in the butler's pantry/kitchen/mudroom/laundry area. That whole area could be redesigned and shrink by at least 25% while still giving you the same function. I'm not talking about negative space here, which is open space that serves a design purpose. Your pantry is far from your garage and you have a butler's pantry sink, a cleanup sink, a prep sink, a laundry sink, 2 half baths with sinks, and a bunch of stairs everywhere. A better designed plan would eliminate one of those half baths as well as either the butler's pantry sink or the laundry sink. You'd do that by moving the "utility" spaces together instead of scattering them all over the home. You centralize the traffic patterns as well. And you regionalize the more public open spaces vs. the more closed in private spaces.

The first question I'd ask of you though is are you formal enough people to need a formal dining room? Do you ever get down the china and crystal and entertain 12? Or do you eat off of stoneware and paper plates even at Thanksgiving and Christmas? If you aren't someone who uses a formal dining room regularly, as in every week, then why are you dedicating space to it when you could have a more versatile everyday eating space instead? Access to it isn't great from the kitchen and it will be difficult to serve to, so it won't get used. Why pay to create a space, HVAC it 365 a year, only to not use it?

You should post the entire floorplan on the Building a Home forum to get additional suggestions as to how to tweak it to become more functional. Take a look at CamG's house while you are at it. It accomplishes relatively the same tasks in a much smaller footprint with less redundancy and better traffic patterns.

Hi hollysprings! Thanks for such a detailed response. I hope I can give coherent answers.

The first issue - 42" between aisles. Okay, I will see what we can do about that. It's just two more inches so hopefully we can make that happen. The second - 60" behind seated diners. Are you referring to the bi-level island? If so, I'm not sure that I understand what traffic route is behind seated diners. The stairs to the second floor are located in the foyer/entry. The stairs you see below the island are to a basement. I also don't really plan to have seating there, but I'll get to that on your next point.

I had originally not asked for a bi-level island. I don't know why I don't like them, I just don't. I don't need the seating, because as you mentioned, we have a large formal dining room, and in addition, a banquette and a huge covered porch where we eat a lot (I live in Florida). My architect told me that even if we don't eat there, I will want it that way so that it blocks the view of dishes. Any thoughts on this? I lived in my last home for four years and never had bar stools. It was the same size as this one with as many eating areas.

Need to clarify one thing before I continue. There is a mistake in this plan that I've already asked to be corrected. The middle island has 12 inch cabinets on the left side and 24 inch on the right, opposite how it looks now. The prep side is on the right so that my husband and son (who wants to be a chef) can prep and not be where I am cooking on the range side.

Regarding ring around the rosy to put dishes in the dishwasher. Boy did we spend hours on this, and clearly, never came up with the perfect solution. In my mind, the bulk of my dirty dishes are going to be coming from the middle island (for prep) and the banquette (from meals). I thought that I had a pretty staight shot for both of these to the sink/dishwasher. I may be spoiled because my husband always cleans up with me so I just picture myself handing the few pots and pans over the island for him to put in sink. But it could be a much bigger deal for resale.

The butler's pantry is going to serve as a bar for our dining room.

My "real" pantry had been in a different location, then I moved it because everything I read about how it should be protected from light and heat.

My dish storage will be in the drawers on right side of middle island, closest to the banquette where we will eat most of our meals. Or built-in to the banquette with a raisable back. Talking to cabinet guy about this.

I questioned two of the sinks myself, so it's great to know I'm not alone. I don't want a sink in the butler's pantry or the laundry room, but architect said to plumb for them because it would be a turnoff for prospective buyers not to have them. Two half baths- I guess I got spoiled there from my last house (which I didn't build.) I got to have one that kids could use and abuse and keep a nice fancy one for my guests. A perspective of the size of my family - I have twenty-two first cousins. All married with families! We have a lot of people at our house at one time and I really liked having two accessible bathrooms.

I don't know how laundry cabinets will ultimately be configured, but I can tell you that it's purpose will be pet space for two dogs and three cats, aside from the parts used for actual laundry :)

Dining room - yep, I am one of those people that use theirs! Yep, I have formal china and crystal for 12! But I don't have it in lieu of an everyday space. I also have the banquette and the outdoor seating area. I wonder if the dining room is too large though and if I could add space to the kitchen. We calculated the area based on some article I found with clearance around your table with all of the leaves in, but I still think it's too long. Would love to hear some thoughts on a good size for dining rooms.

Don't understand about the stairs all over the place. The only staircase I know of is one continuous one that you enter in the foyer to go upstairs and enter by the island to go to an unfinished basement. Other than the exterior stairs because we are built up.

Hope I didn't miss anything. Thanks for giving me your eye :)

As one who's in (hopefully), the final stages of planning a new
build, two things struck me immediately:

The fridges are too far away from the banquette. Picture the
family has just sat down to dinner, and you realize you forgot
the butter for the corn, or the milk, or...Do you really want to
walk between the two islands, all the way to the other end of
the kitchen to get it/them? I think you'd be better served
putting the fridges where the desk w/base drawers is. They'll
still be handy to the island prep area, and stove.

Also, I'm not real fond of the 1/2 bath opening directly in
front of the banquette. When you dine out, would you
volunteer to sit facing the bathroom? As DH and I worked on
our house/kitchen plan, it was important that the bathroom
be very near the kitchen, but not open into it. It's not so much
the esthetics of the bathroom, but rather unappealing odors.

I'm confused. Where is your "pantry" pantry?

With the amount you entertain, I could see the need for a real butler's pantry, but then I'd put a DW in there that can handle china.

And with entertaining, have you considered the idea of two DWs? If I had the room in my kitchen and could match up the (almost new) existing one that we are moving into the remodel, I would consider a 2nd DW (and there's only two of us!)

Your 3'4" aisles are probably from cabinet to cabinet rather than from countertop to countertop, so this means that instead of having 40", you actually have 37" if you go with the standard countertop overhang of 1 1/2" over each), making you 5" short of 42" aisles rather than 2" short of it.

The trip from the garage to the pantry is pretty inconvenient. You would be well served moving the pantry closer to where you come in from the garage.

I also agree that the powder room is in an unfortunate location - opening directly into an eating area isn't terribly appealing.

I'm still not really seeing why you need the two islands. If it is to have seating for people while you are cooking, it appears that both the keeping room and the family would serve that purpose - you have an open floor plan, so there aren't barriers to those areas being used.

I know that the building side of this forum isn't quite as fast moving as the kitchen one, but there's some very good info to be had there and some people who would be well equipped to help you with a beautiful and very functional floorplan.

Remember, when we are making suggestions, it's to try to help you get a more livable home and minimize the regrets that you hear so many people mention after their build or renovation is finished.

Hi, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to give me your thoughts. Andrea, I do recognize the spirit in which the suggestions are given and I am honestly grateful to you guys.

I wish that I had more time today to respond but I'm working a lot. One issue in particular that has bothered me is the bath door into the banquette. We put the wall up between the toilet and sink so that if the door was inadvertently left open you would only see the sink. However, I have tried in the past to play with switching the laundry area and half bath but didn't get anywhere with it. I may post that under a separate thread for ideas since it isn't really a "double island" issue. I'll post more later.

Thanks again!

Thanks to all who gave advice. I've been gone for awhile walking some kitchens.

We are trying to incorporate some of the suggestions into our plans. Here's what we have so far. We have eliminated the half bath off the banquette. We have moved the desk into this space and made it a little office. We have separated the refrigerator and freezer and moved the pantry entrance into the kitchen.

Now I'm working on getting rid of one island. It was suggested to us to make the island orient horizontally to the plan to the plan (perpendicular to the range) since we had so much space to fill now. My issues with that are 1) you will have a view of the sink/dishwasher walking through the main traffic aisle, 2) it will block traffic pattern to fridge and pantry, and 3) not sure it will look right in scale - narrow side of island with 48 inch hood behind it. I'm sure I didn't explain that well.

However, if we leave the island oriented vertically, the way it is now but with one removed, I'd have to do a smaller island and lose more cabinets, and I think it will leave too much empty space between kitchen and family room.

Which would you pick?

Thanks :)
Maggie

Maggie
Your original links do not work for me. I cannot see your house plan or your floor plan.
The only images that show are GreenDesigns' analysis of traffic patterns.
Sandra

Bellsmom is right, the links are no longer active.

When you say " We have separated the refrigerator and freezer and moved the pantry entrance into the kitchen.", does that mean that the fridge
moved to the wall, and the entrance to the pantry is between the
fridge and freezer? Or, have you moved their location entirely? If so,
where are they now?

As for the surviving island, how about enlarging the width by 2', and
move it a foot toward the family room?

It would help if you would post new sketches.

Below is the current 1st floor plan

And a closer view of the kitchen area

This is the idea for the pantry entry. The refrigerator will be on the right side and the freezer on the left.

The picture was taken from the recent Kitchen & Bath Ideas magazine.