What a charming kitchen!

Just some thoughts - GC will always say gut it. My mother would always say live with it first awhile. You get to pick based on your own priorities. The compromise might be to work on one section.

The aisle looks wide enough as long as you aren't standing there lots. So maybe move the cooktop instead of the brick. Is there any gas in the kitchen now? in the house? Where?

Do you want to save the old brick BBQ? That could be the microwave coffee center.

It would feel less narrow if you could put another window in, but you would lose storage. You could put a freestanding hutch in the top left corner of the breakfast nook. Maybe hang the bigger pots on the walls back there. Or a solatube for light?

And that bath - can we steal floorspace? Can it be a shower instead of a tub, or just a powder room? Maybe a refrigerator alcove and a shower in the tub space?

I would also make the dutch door into a window with a base cabinet. Can you find matching/coordinating cabinets?

I agree that living with it is the best way to know the room - its good points and bad points.

Funny, this reminded me of my mother's response to just about anything I wanted was "and people in he++ want icewater". It had the opposite effect intended - I always try for the best possible result and then see what I can implement given the money I have.

Your desired style is called mission or California mission or mission revival. The "adobe that ate the room" is kinda troubling on the inside for a couple of reasons.

The brick competes with the ceiling(which is flat out gorgeous) which competes with the counter tile and makes the entire picture so busy, the eye can't find a place to land. The other reason is much further down - after the screaming starts.

Consider plastering over the bricks. It was often done to provide hygienic, smooth surface, easily cleaned and could be whitewashed. It will create some lightness and opens up many different possibilities for backsplash - including talavera tile, an element of mission style.

The other form of lightness is to add light. So consider a variety of lighting and add a lot of it. Undercabinet, possibly led strips or led tape on the beams, even a little discrete surface wire to more ceiling fixtures - get someone to decoratively paint it into the ceiling.

Ok, I see two possibilities for spending BIG money. And the caveat is - I know nothing about adobe so please bear that in mind.

One: Destroy some of the "adobe that ate the room" (after checking it's just decorative). Redesign it so it functions the way you want. It's not clear to me whether the stuff inside matches the bricks outside, but if it does, recycle it by...

Two: kill the dutch door!

Done screaming ohhhh noooo yet?

Ref where the dutch door was, move the cooktop and hood (maybe with a new liner?) onto the outside wall. Lower the entire run on the outside wall. The cleanup area becomes the cooking area.

Possibly shift cleanup and dish storage to where the ref used to be? Your bit of marble beside the ovens? Or even better, it could be on a pull out table under that section - so it ends up near your ideal 32" height for kneading or rolling plus its closer to the prep area and gets the working edge away from the taller ovens.

Thanks for your feedback.

lyvia -> I really agree with your point about focusing on our priorities. We really want to make the aisle near the breakfast nook wider as this will be a high traffic (multiple butts) area for us as my DH and I rush in the morning with breakfasts, lunch packing etc. And also when we have people over. Also, there is no landing zone to speak off near the cooktop (There is maybe 9 inches on the right in the area that juts out for the cooktop). We kind of like the dutch door as it seems to help the traffic flow. We need to figure out what will go there before we consider blocking it off. Free standing hutch is a great idea - will have to find something quite narrow as this is the only eating area in the house. As you see in the layout, this is around 9'6" and we are considering either putting in a window (window seat or a banquette maybe?)

bmorepanic --> It is not an option to move the cooking zone to the other wall as all of the venting is on this wall (the other wall is brick with no option to add venting). Adobe is not cosmetic. It is structural but it could be plastered and whitewashed to make it lighter.. The brick around the cooktop and oven and BBQ is not Adobe. It is cosmetic and can be gotten rid off!

I like the concept of Pantry instead of cooktop where the living room fireplace juts in. I wonder if we could somehow reduce the depth of the fireplace to make the kitchen wider there. Would a narrow pantry be useful? I love the idea of 'bit of marble'..not sure I can imagine what a pullout table is? The thing is, We still need to fit the cooking zone this side of the wall.. therefore the prepsink and possibly the refrigerator as well. I do like the idea of borrowing space from the hall bath to fit in a refrigerator. If we can somehow keep the refrigerator, microwave and the plates/ silverware closer to the eating area (near french doors), that would help avoid traffic as DH and Child can get to milk/ snacks, make tea without walking around Mommy.

We do have gas in the house (Actually close to the brick wall with the cook top for the furnace which is in the hallway off the kitchen). So we can do a combination of a couple of gas burners, a gas wok and a couple of induction (If we can fit it all in :)

Great idea bout lighting.. There are already 2 solar tubes near the french door area. I don't know anything about LED strips but I will look it up.

Keep the ideas coming!

WHY can't you vent through the exterior wall?

The exterior wall is solid Adobe brick (14 " thick). It would be major structural work to get new setup here for cooktop, venting, gas etc. So we are stuck with keeping cooking area near the existing interior wall. BTW, I noticed something called deepfry in the layout - Is that for the wok?

Lalitha

You can get a wok area in a few 36" wide induction setups, but not a deep fry unit - which I thought you wanted. So, I'm thinking induction, not gas out on the exterior wall - meaning electricity, not gas. The interior wall should already have gas at the bbq.

I'm really not trying to be an idiot - just comes naturally, I guess - but why is a hole in the side wall for a vent structural?

I would really prefer gas for wok burner instead of induction. In fact I was originally thinking all gas and then after reading on GW and trying it out at the appliance store, I can see how a induction surface would make everyday cooking much more efficient and faster. Hence the combo of induction + gas. I was thinking of either the wolf modular where I can get 15" units for induction, 2 gas burners and 1 wok burner.

The structural issue is because of how Adobe is constructed. Adobe is basically a unbaked clay bricks which are 14x10x4. They are held together by adobe mortar and the channeling for the electricity/ plumbing is planned and setup upfront and the brick structure was built around that. As there is no hollow space in the wall and Adobe literally has to be broken down, it is just too much effort - hence our structural engineer says to keep away from trying to move major utility access around. Not ideal I know..Thank you for pushing me on it. I understood this better today after I talked to our structural engineer.

Do you think fitting in a fridge, a cooktop, a oven and a prep sink will be too much for the inner wall?

I was thinking to keep all of the cooking surfaces together under the hood.

I like the adobe that forms the walls, although the parts around the cooking area are excessive, I guess. Its still charming in a busy, period kinda way.

In the new kitchen, I am assuming a more monolithic countertop/cabinets so I don't think the adobe walls will be "too much" with the ceiling if the new cabinets and counters are relatively simple. Its a particular style that should be honored even if it doesn't conform fully to current tastes. A drywalled or plastered room with a wooden ceiling would have a great wooden ceiling but not as much character.

I would also repurpose the scalloped range hood with a new fan insert ... its awesome.

I think you would be able to get most of what you want if you are willing to make some compromises one way or the other. There is 9-1/2 feet off to the side of the current fridge + another five over to the fireplace. Thats 14+ feet of continuous run. Granted it veers off into the area along the bathroom but it does not make it useless realestate by any means.

Palimpsest --> Turns out that the brick around the cooking area is not adobe and is just decorative (oh for the excesses of 50's :). So I will definitely be getting rid of that. You said it well "particular style should be honored" .. that is where I am struggling.. I definitely want to keep the hood and the copper backsplash (on a different wall) and the lovely deep window with mexical tiles. The knotty pine cabinets -> I would like to retain some but I would like drawers below the counter (more functional). I know what I want for appliances (more or less) but the look and layout is what I need some desperate help.
Where would I put the cooktop?
Where should prep sink go?
Can I do a 48" liebherr or does it need to be smaller. Whither Microwave?
2 ovens or just 1 (24 " should suffice).
Can I covert the broom closet into a pullout pantry?

DH is after me to stop dithering and just go with what the contracter is suggesting as we have 2 bath rooms to remodel and an entire mastersuite to build.

Lalitha

Can you move the gas, the electric or water around on the inner wall?

We "moved" the gas on the same wall by running black pipe though the cabinet toe kicks. Is that code where you are?

Unless something is totally broken, live there for a year and then decide what to do

I agree. Try to live with things as they are and see what it feels like. You never know how you will really want to change the layout until you determine what is really wrong *for you* -- or what you can live with, in this one.

I verified that cabinet toe kicks for routing gas is not legal here in california. Unfortunately, we have to remodel now (it can be minimal or not) as we are updating wiring and plumbing anyways, so it would be better to remodel now than to wait. This will also make the permit process much easier.

So trying to fit most of the major appliances on the inner wall, this is the rough math I come up with.

Total length - 30ft = 360"( (Total wall from door to the living room entrance)
Cooking zone - Rangetop (30") + Induction (15")
Prep sink - 26"
Refrigerator - 48"
Oven wall - 26"
-------Total: 145". That would leave us around 17" of potential counter and pantry/ storage space). It could be as much as 4-5 lessor if there is no way to get the counter on the wall where the living room fireplace juts in.

DW and Microwave/ breakfast prep station can be on the other wall to the left of the sink. As well as Trash near the dutch doors.

Please poke holes in this :)

Does this sound about right? Where would be the best layout that will accomodate this?

This is kinda the problem:

You have about a 42" aisle where the existing cooktop is and you want more.

The cooktop area backs up to a fireplace - immovable object.

If you destroy the cooktop-oven brick thing
--- you'll need to replace the floor, and
--- the decorative bits may be connected to the fireplace
--- you can move the ref and the oven, but if you can't move the cooktop, you can't get the aisle width.

If you are replacing the floor, can you move the gas at all?

If you use the existing hood, can you rely on its 60-year-old motor and is it powerful enough for the type of cooking you'll do? Does its vent piping need to be replaced? Is it straight up? Can a relocated vent still use the same roof exit?

Do you really need a 48" fridge?

The exterior of the hood could be used with a new power pack inside just like people do with mantle-style hoods. Since it is copper it is probably separate components already.

I'll reiterate, don't rush into any decisions. I hope your GC isn't rushing you. I love your kitchen and the brick and see huge potential. I am a talavera tile lover too!

My entire house has an adobe brick facade. However, for some reason the previous owner, who built the house, decided to stucco over it. There is one brick wall inside the house that I was determined to keep in the remodel. Here it is.

Adobe brick is partially made with something organic like straw and dung. This is what gives it the color variation. Mine has been sealed with something (I don't know what) and that really brought out the colors, which is what I love about it.

Hopefully, you can strategically decide which brick to keep and make it a beautiful feature.

Oh! Don't kill the dutch door! I wish I had one.

My GC is not rushing me but DH is.. primarily as we have a lot of other things to remodel as well.

bmorepanic --> I was thinking 42" as I run out of space in the doubledoor I had before - primarily freezer space. Maybe I can find a smaller fridge which has larger freezer capacity. I was thinking Liebherr. The floor is damaged and will anyway need to be replaced. I am thinking clay or saltillo tiles or talavera. The floor is tile on concrete slab .. so we are again talking pretty big jackhammering to move the cooktop. I also verified there is no venting mechanism under the copper hood. The living room fireplace, the old BBQ and the kitchen vent all connect to the same chimney. As long as we are within 3-4 feet of the current hood position, I beleive we should be able to add venting and move the hood (It is just attached by screws to the brick facade.) Would a shallow pantry work instead of a cooktop in this part of the counter?

Houseful --> Love your brick wall. I think I am getting convinced to at least save it as a feature in some locations.

Clg7067 - I hear ya about the Dutchdoor :)

Is this a single story? If so can't you just vent through the roof?

It is a single story. The chimney right on top of the stove/fireplace/ BBQ area

Could you do a basic set up for the upgrade of the electrical limited demo and things like that now, and hold off on the full reno?

I actually did selective demolition first (tore out the floor and did some other dirtywork) and set up the basis for new electrical (which was way underserviced for a current kitchen, I am sure yours is too). I did this somewhat prior to the kitchen renovation, and what I ended up doing was quite a bit different than my initial thoughts at move-in.

I have done two kitchens for myself and a number for other people and the first one I did for myself, while a great improvement over what I started with was Not what I would've done had I lived in the apartment a bit longer.
I also did a huge paradigm shift with a client who agreed to move the kitchen from one end of the house to the other after living in it for a while. (it was a bigger psychological hurdle and a rather minor addition to budget: about $1000 --to do this in her case, but she would not hear of it when I suggested it when she closed on the house.)

On a less theoretical note, have you considered a secondary freezer, even if it is in the kitchen somewhere? It may make sense to have a more typical size refrigerator (36") right at the best point of use, and have a small freezer out of the work triangle.

2 stage process - This is definitely something to consider.

I am thinking this would be updating electrical (currently the wholw house is only 80-100 amps), bringing in Gas. Maybe new appliances but hold of on other stuff. The GC tells me that we may have code issues where the aisle is narrow between BBQ/ Stove block and the other counter. I need to check with him.

I like your idea of 36" fridge and more of a point of use (Mise en place) refrigerator/ freezer.

I think the best advise here would be to start working on the bathrooms and master suite while pondering the kitchen. Bathrooms have a lot of decisions, but much fewer and for most folks much easier decisions than a well done kitchen. Then you will have a lovely new master suite for some peace and quiet, long soaks in the tub or a steamy shower for the days the kitchen overwhelms you.

Yes, the kitchen can be saved. You have some fun and unique things to work with. Your kitchen will not be cookie cutter design, so take some time to make it unique and wonderful.

Ya know, you're not allowed to vent into a chimney. Are you saying it doesn't have a fan?

Pam and I sorta both said the same thing - she with an external blower and myself with a "new liner". A liner is the sheet steel insert and in my case also has the blowers attached. A remote blower is the fan attached outside - it still has a liner down below. It sounds like you just have the decorative cover and none of the "guts"?

You can have the 42" aisle as far as I know. I believe code starts get persnickety at 36".

You might get an estimate for the plumbing bit early - sometimes its not as bad as you'd think.

For the record, I still want to kill the bricks and the 4x4's!

And I would live in the house a while first if the kitchen is working enough. I would NOT buy appliances until I knew what I sorta kinda could have the space for.

Yes it does not have a fan.. Just a pretty decorative cover. I never thought to look under the hood until this thread.

As you can see, I am more enthused about the kitchen stuff than the rest :)

We plan to move into a small in-law unit on the property while the remodeling goes on. I will spend more time in the kitchen and maybe even use it and see how it feels like you suggest.

I guess, I was thinking more along the lines of if I knew what was feasible in the space, then that would help me narrow down appliance choices. We hope to shop online and save some money on taxes and delivery (we live in Nor.cal near SF).

Thanks for all your help!

Since it is a 1 story you should be able to move the cooktop over to the other side as you can vent through the roof. You can also pull your gas line through the attic space.

Folks,

Just wanted to send a thank you email to you all for all the advice when I first posted this last year. We took your advice and waited a year to really get to know the house. We have a clearer idea of what to work with and what can be done structurally. We are now getting ready to remodel finally (you have probably seen some posts from me in the appliance and kitchen forums).

I will post layout drafts for review feedback in the next few days. You guys rock! I am grateful for all the information and guidance shared in this forum.

Lalitha