Ouch - I'd suggest that the installer take responsibility for the damage to the stone, he is acknowledging it was damaged while he was drilling out the opening for the sink. If you're able to get a replacement stone out of it, you could cut the opening with an overlap over the sink - it will hide any discrepencies in that gap between the sink and countertop as well as any caulk or epoxy.

Looking at your image again, you would probably need to alter the cabinet to drop the sink down to be flush with the top of the cabinet to allow for this overhang.

Here's a shot of the way we handled the sink mounting - I did the countertop myself, and knew that a precision solution would be impossible, so just left approx. 1/2" overhang (fudge-factor) on all sides. You can see a bit of waviness in the cut on the right side of the sink, I might sand that out at some point.

I haven't done a huge amount of research on the sink mounting, but I don't think I've seen that mounting method before where the countertop stone is coped to the profile of the sink, it seems really tricky.

I wouldn't stress about the 1.5" reveal on the countertop, especially if its not something that you could fix. You'll probably get used to very quickly and from the image its not evident there's anything out-of-spec.

I'm not sure about the epoxy and hope it can be resolved okay but the edge thickness looks really really good. I like the thin edges too but this works out especially well with your cabinets pictured. Learn to love it because it's GOOD!

Caulking on the sink will be okay--it's a tradeoff for the handmade look, and it's expected with the handmade look. It emphasizes the handmadeness! It's it's it's...well, it won't be that bad.

This is not a solution, just a consolation, may-be. Our Shaw's is also a little off. The first one dipped down on one side and you could see the space between the sink and the counter. The marble installer cracked that one. The second one is more even but the water does not drain well. I think if you get one of these sinks you're going to have some idiosyncracies to deal with. As far as that gap at the corners-- I agree, that's not a fault of the sink and it should get properly addressed.

I agree on the caulk/handmade sink issues and the edge looking good. The chip is something that can happen with any piece of stone due to natural cracks and weaknesses in the stone. Before I made a decision on having the piece replaced, I'd find out if another slab from the same batch (or remnant from your slabs) is available so you know it will match the rest of what you have and I'd let them try with the epoxy again. marble is tough because it isn't white, isn't beige and isn't grey. The best seam or repair work is done with a marbling of the epoxy colors, and it requires an artistic touch to mimic nature when most of the installers are the big, strong types rather than detail types.

Good luck with it.

In your question about addressing the sink dip on one corner, you mention possibly addressing it with epoxy. I think caulk would be the way to go to even the counter with the handmade uneveness of the sink. I think that using epoxy would be a huge mistake, but I am not an installer.

As far as the chip in the other corner that is now an epoxy patch, I would expect better. It is too bad that happened. How long is that stretch of counter and could they just replace that section?

I can't say much about the other stuff, but the thickness of the counter looks lovely. I am not sure why that bothers you, but it might help to know that others like it the way it is. Your cabs and counters are lovely and I hope they fix the issues by the sink satisfactorily.

contact Stone Inspections.com - they can help you

Here is a link that might be useful: Stone Inspections.com Website

When you have a built up edge on a counter, either stone or laminate, you need to have a subtop or build up strips for it to rest on so that the edge doesn't overhang the cabinet box below when the unbuilt up portion is resting on the cabinet box. That is a GC issue, as the subtop or cabinet buildup could be installed by your cabinet guy or your counter guy. This is something that your countertop guy should know. 2cm stone needs a plywood subtop, so how did it get installed without it? That's a 100% redo right there.

Sorry, I can't understand people telling you that looks fine. No. Bad install.

thanks all for your replies. it is not an option to replace the stone, will have to see what kind of solutions there are with epoxy patching. i purchased this sink and had custom cabinetry built around it before i learned about the shaw sink issues that are posted on this site. in retrospect if i were to do it again i would have gone with a stainless undermount. oh well, i am here today and will need to find a solution and i do love the sink!

The fabricator (and by extension, the GC) screwed up royally here on more than one thing---and not just aesthetic issues. Structural ones. I don't understand why it isn't an option to make them replace the job. It's what a reputable fabricator---or GC would do. Put their feet to the fire and get loud and insist on replacement. You are owed no less for the wholesale issues that you have here. And this time make sure that they use a subtop for the counters and know how to color match epoxy.

I agree with GreenDesigns.

sorry green designs i forgot to reply to you earlier, thanks for the reminder. the cabs were made with an integrated plywood top so the GC said i did not need a plywood substrait on top of the top that was already there. are you saying even with the integrated top one was needed on top of that? is it to support the edges so they do not get banged off?

the marble that i selected is no longer available, if i asked for a replacement it would have to be something else and i am not crazy about that idea.

also, forgot to ask about grout. would you recommend white or clear?

sorry for the multiple posts, think i understand grees question now. yes the 1.5 edges are overhanging and there is no wood behind them, there is a gap of approx 1/4 from the back of the edge to where the faceframe of the cabinetbox. could they remedy this by glueing in wood slats in that gap now?

The plywood top that your cabinets have isn't a countertop sub top. I'll see if I can explain this better. A counter with a built up edge is like the capital letter P on it's side. Unless you put a piece of plywood under the the portion of the top that isn't built up (so that's it's more like a B) so that the whole counter installs at the same thickness, then you have the leg of the P resting on the cabinet frame and the bubble of the P hanging over the cabinet frame in the way. Your drawers wouldn't even open if you had frameless cabinets because the bubble of the P would be blocking the top of the drawer. Your inset cabinets have the beautiful details blocked by the overhanging P, when they should be installed on top of plywood, raising them up so that the detail on your cabinets were visible. This is a fundamental flaw in your counter install and is completely unacceptable.

I understand that the local supplier may not have additional slabs of the marble that you chose, but there have to be slabs of that marble somewhere in the country. Your fabricator needs to get on the phone and locate those slabs. Or, if he is dragging his feet, he needs to refund you entirely so you can choose a fabricator that has a clue. I'd choose option B, as I would have no confidence in someone who could make so many basic errors.

OK, I found a diagram to help with visualization here.

The top diagrams show what edging on 3cm stone looks like. The stone itself is solid, so once it's edged, it merely rests on top of the cabinet boxes, no problem.

When you have a laminated edge, like in the lower diagrams, you have an issue because the edge is thicker than the body. If you just put that top onto a cabinet, as is, then the built up portion hangs over the front portion of the cabinet frame. As I said, with frameless cabinets, you wouldn't even be able to open the drawers if it were installed like that. On framed cabinets, you can get away with installing it like that, because you have a frame before the drawer starts. That doesn't mean that is the correct way to install the counter. It's just that it won't cause any access issues. It still looks wrong, and IS wrong.

The correct way to install counters with built up edges is to first place plywood over the cabinet box that is the depth of the "hangdown" portion of the built up edge (usually 3/4".) That way, the counters install with their lower edge level with the top of the cabinet box, just as 3cm stone does.

Your installer and GC did not perform this step. Your counter is installed incorrectly. In addition, you have issues with blow outs, poor color matching epoxy, and an installer who seems to be feeling his way through the install like it's his first time.

It isn't an acceptable situation, and your GC should be all over the counter installer to correct this for you. He IS the GC, and it's ultimately his responsibility to handle issues like this---especially when the error was allowed to occur because of his ignorance. He should be horribly embarrassed and be assuring you that he will correct the issue, and thanks to you will never make that mistake again.

Stick to your guns and demand a redo and let him do his job of sourcing where to find the marble and a new fabricator. It's what you're paying him to do. He needs to step up and do his job. Or he needs to be discharged for cause.

hi green -

the issue of the plywood top came up as we prepped for templating. the GC was concerned on how to deal with the edge detail of the shaw sink. if they put down a sheet of ply for the counter, then dealing with the reveal on the sink would have been problematic, they could not miter the edges of the ply around the sink given the curve and laminating would have been problematic on the curves as well. it was decided that the approach of foregoing a ply top for counter would resolve the sink reveal issue and would be acceptable for the cabs given they already had the integrated top. what was missed by all of us was the edge thickness issue. i did not catch they would make it 1.5" in length and indeed it does hang too low and covers some of the inset detail. when they showed up to install this past friday and it was discovered, they gave me the opportunity to fix it at a cost of $1000 by taking it back and cutting down all the edges, with increased risk of breakage. i had 20 minutes to decide and determined i could not afford it and they proceeded to glue it down. in retrospect i should have stopped everything, called the GC PM and made an issue of it to get him pay for the fix but that did not occur to me, i could not even remember the plywood discussion until later. i found the whole situation very stressful - they kept telling me 1.5" is standard and feeling pressured to make a decision in 20 minutes is not a situation i deal well with. because i did not call this out in the specs i think it is partially my fault. they should have explained the implications to me of not having the ply top and where the edge would fall but i should have also understood the final specs and what i was purchasing and clearly i didn't.

given all that, at this point it is too late. if it is pulled up now, i will need to incur all costs and i am not in a position to do so. i could not afford the $1000, would cost much more now since it is installed.

is there a structural issue with the edges the way they are now that i need to ask them to remedy? ie: do they need to insert boards under the edge to be sure the edges do not snap off over time?

With a full plywood cabinet top, no there isn't a structural issue for the counter support. The edge itself will remain a slightly weaker point, as it is relying on epoxy alone for it to remain solid. It does have a higher risk of breaking without the correct support.

But, I'm puzzled here. You want help with your install issues, and several here, including pros, have told you that you have an unacceptable install that should be completely redone, preferably by a more qualified fabricator. That is not your fault.

I have to insist that this is your contractor's issue, and there should be zero cost to you to fix this, despite the reprehensible intimidation tactics used by the countertop installer. You pay him to know what he's doing and to engage trades that are skilled. He has done neither.

Is there another issue here that we are unaware of? Is your GC or stone fabricator a family member or friend? Has he intimidated you on other issues and you don't want to deal with another confrontation? Why do you want to let him off the hook? I'm one of the last people to tell a homeowner to create conflict and demand a redo. Really. Very often there are issues of lack of understanding and communication that can lead homeowners to make errors that they blame the contractors for. sharing the blame and sharing the solution is absolutely the best solution for everyone 90% of the time. There are some cases where one party is clearly abdicating their responsibility for an issue that should be solely laid at their doorstep. This is one of those cases. The whole fiasco is your GC's fault, and you should be kicking him 9 ways to Sunday until he assumes responsibility and replaces these counters.

No one likes conflict and everyone wants to be thought of as nice, but being nice and compromising here is doing you an extreme disservice. I'm not trying to push you into a conflict that you don't feel comfortable engaging in, but as a pro, I feel somewhat ashamed that the guys you are dealing with here aren't living up to that label. Get your good friend Guido from the MMA gym to stand beside you when you have conversations with these guys! LOL! He can slam their heads together until they can better see their own incompetency and agree to rectify the problem at their expense. (It IS what should happen, including the head slamming.)

If I'm making you uncomfortable here, I apologize. I just hate to see anyone being taken advantage of.

Babushka- am I reading this right, the fabricator botched the job of the 1.5" hang down and expected you to pay an extra $1000 to fix it? I had a similar situation, and tried to politely word my concerns. When that didn't work, I spoke frankly with my GC. My GC immediately solved the situation to my satisfaction.
I also agree with GreenDesigns take on it.

hi all -

major development - need your opinion!!!

i checked the counters again to see if the marks showing through indicating the adhesive was still wet were showing. they were still showing so i tried to lift off the marble and i was able to pop both off both pieces on either side of the range with very little resistance. the thin set product they used has not yet dried!!! they said they could not use liquid nails given the transparency of the marble. i think because the integrated tops have some kind of laminated wood finish the product is not drying correctly or taking longer to dry and this could be my ticket to salvation!!! Questions now:

1. will it still be wet tomorrow AM when they show up? they did this install friday and it is still wet and i see wet stains on the big piece too so hope so. just shut off the AC to prevent any air from flowing. sweating a bit for 1" thickness is worth it!

2. what is the risk of them taking out the big piece without breaking it? picture below. it is comprised of two pieces - the full left side up to to center of the sink. the second piece is the other side of center of sink and right side. it is a big piece and think there is major risk. The problem is the center seam behind the sink has been epoxyed so the full thing needs to come out, don't think they can separate the 2 pieces now. The counter to the right is plywood underneath for the dishwasher. perhaps they could unscrew it from below?

3. am i crazy to consider risk of breakage to try to remedy the edges?

if this seems do-able i am definately game to go to the mat with the GC and tell him to take this back and recut the edges correctly and fix the epoxy repairs. the question is if the marble breaks who is responsible. i am sure they will not take responsibily. let me know your thoughts ASAP. in the meantime i have an emergency call into the GC PM.

and my boy for good measure. he approves of the new quartersawn oak floor.

Kitty says be strong and get this done right so he can enjoy his new floors in peace. (Wonderful floors, by the way--nice choice!)

Evening update:

Spoke with GC PM. He acknowledged I had requested the smaller depth edge some time ago but that somewhere this request got lost. He also expressed frustration that I did not insist on this fix Friday and that the risks of trying to remedy it now are much higher. I told him about what happened with his fabricator and that I felt his worker who saw what was happening should have alerted him to this issue. I acknowledged it would have been better for all of us to have this dealt with friday but we have an additional issue of the thin set not setting and the counter may need to be pulled anyway to deal with it.

He has indicated there is great risk of getting the slab up without breakage (the two pieces have been epoxyed). The compicating factor is the piece to right of sink was applied to straight plywood so that side may be stuck down and the rest is not.

No agreement was made, we are both considering options. He is discussing it with his crew and we are meeting in the AM with the fabricator to discuss options. Not sure what to do.... will sleep on it.

Green -

I forgot to reply to you. No relation to GC, strictly business. Given the new development am investigating feasibility of a remedy, will keep you posted.

GC meeting this AM went pretty well given the circumstances. GC PM is investigating feasibility of getting slab up to make corrections at no charge to me, he wants to make this right. should know more later today or tomorrow. The unresolved part is if slab breaks, he is proposing I would have to replace. I do not think I should have to, this is not yet resolved. Called stone yard and of course the slabs of this lot are all sold out.

Thanks all for your replies, I really appreciate it, will keep you posted.

Of course you don't have to replace it. If the slab comes up in one piece, it saves him money, not you. If it breaks into a thousand pieces, it's out of his pocket book. No room for interpretation here. It's installed incorrectly.

Excuse me?!! If it breaks, **you** have to pay for it? Ummmm...not.

You've been through a lot during this reno. Keep fighting. I hope you don't have to worry about looking for more slabs because Babushka matches yours so perfectly.

Well, this thread has been a good education for me! It has reinforced my hesitation to install a farmhouse fireclay sink and will go instead with a farmhouse stainless or undermount sink. Thank you, GreenDesigns, for your good explanations on the different edge options and proper installation needed for either choice. I am going to cut and paste your 8/28/11 17:18 post for the future. I dislike conflict, so often end up gettting taken advantage of--especially when a job is being done by a friend. Good to hear, Babushka_cat, that your GC is just a business associate. Helps to keep feelings and friendship out of the equation. Good luck with your redo, and well-said advice, GreenDesigns.

Update: I went through my emails with the GC and found a 7 page communication including photos of what I wanted the edge detail to look like, sent by me some time ago. I did not forget to tell him the specs - they just didn't do it right! I printed a hard copy of that and he had it in his mailslot Monday AM. He gets that I am taking this on.

He has repeatedly stated he wants to make it right and I am pending a reply from them tomorrow. He freaked when I told him how much my slab cost (calacatta delicato).

I am stopping at another marble vendor tomorrow AM, their on line inventory looks like it may have a similar looking slab, to be confirmed.

After studying the current counter in detail I see a lot of flaws and am coming to the conclusion that cutting down the current counter edges may not be sufficient (not to mention it is fraught with risk and is it even feasible?), it needs to be redone with a new slab. ug. i know you guys have been telling me this but it is a shock to hear and to comprehend. and what a terrible waste of a beautiful natural resource. i have zero confidence in the fabricator. not sure what other fabricator in their right mind would take this mess on so think this one might be heading to the scrap heap. i am leaning towards a full credit for the slab, fabrication and installation, i remove it from the scope of work and find someone else who knows what they are doing. i see more tough emails and conversations ahead of me. i dread this. fortunately i still owe them a decent amount of money so they are still motivated to address this.

Good for you for doing your research. I'm glad you found back-up for yourself. I agree with your line of thinking. I wouldn't trust that fabricator with a new slab, and you will have some tough conversations ahead. I don't enjoy that kind of conflict either. Someone told me recently to basically get my b!tch on when another reno problem came up for me. I recommend the same thing for you. Don't be snotty, but stand firm. You can do it. Give Babushka a snuggle and move forward.

Wow, I just read through all this. Snuggle B.C. and you go girl - good luck!

GreenDesigns, kudos to you for sharing your knowledge (and not even pushing products while doing it ;). Your presence here is much appreciated!

breezy got results and I'm sure you can too.

Your marble is beautiful (i remember the full slab shot and love that it matches your kitty (well, and my kitty too :)) but I'm sure you'll find its twin sitting in some stoneyard. What part of the country are you in?

Kitty says "mrrrwwww" (that noise they make when you touch them unexpectedly which is I'm sure cat for WTF")

My skinny old guy:

OMG, how darling!!! i love your old skinny guy! that serious expression is a crack up!

mine has turned into inspector general with all this activity going on... he is very intrigued.

i am in SF bay area. i am sure i will find something that will work. i have a second cat, perhaps i need to move to her coloring...

Marcy--I just about peed my pants laughing so hard at your WTF statement!!! How true! My orange Peanut, who died last July, gave me that sound all the time when I'd walk up behind him for a pet. My other cat Archie, who died last month, rarely did that. I firmly believe it's an orange cat attitude. My sweet Archie was black like velvet. Anywho....

Babushka--good news! I can see why you'd want to be open minded. Sticks with your instincts though. Here's to the leftover slab being even better than the one you had!

Ah! if you need a fab fabricator in the bay area (i'm in SF) i am in love with mine ;) Can you tell there is a seam right through the center of that edge?

Your kitty and mine may be related - they have the exact same side profile :) My guy is an SFSPCA 2003 model. yeah, he had that grumpy face through most of the construction. Now he doesn't even blink at strangers. Used to run for the closet of safety like we was under attack.

Oh, breezy, 2 in a year :( I hope you have kitties gracing your life again soon. Hobbes is such a vocal guy. We really do have long conversations (and he's got a very loud voice for someone formerly 11 pounds and now 8.5- darn thyroid). I'm hoping he is with us for a long time...

Just in case you do want to call someone for a second opinion in the a.m., Dimitri - link below. You can say Marcy from 15th ave :)

Here is a link that might be useful: yelp review for custom stone

Babushka I'm in San Jose and purchased thick honed carrara from Intertile http://www.intertile.com/index.html. It's wonderful and not too veiny - we love it! They made the template today. Plus it saved us a considerable amount that it came honed from Italy already, so we didn't have to pay the extra $7/square foot for honing

Babushka-I followed your link back to your Photobucket account trying to follow the ins and outs of what was going on here with your countertop. I'm glad you're making them do their job right; a badly done countertop in such a beautiful stone would forever spoil your kitchen. It kills me that this lovely piece of marble looks to be headed to the trash. Maybe you can salvage some of it for table tops and such even if that means donating it.

Anyway, in the course of pouring over your photos I found this cutest of all the kitty pictures. I hope you don't mind, but this is so worth sharing:

We are currently babysitting a 19-1/2 pound yellow cat, whose backside would not even fit in that bowl, for "3 months to 1 year." This is for the ex-girlfriend of our youngest who's gone to Germany to help take care of her new nephew. Her brother in the (U.S.) army is shipped off to wherever they shipped him this time leaving behind his wife and 2 week old son. As for Mr. Monster Cat: after quite some time hiding under the bed, Legolas (really-we didn't name him) has decided we're cool, our sweet Golden Retriever isn't going to eat him, and he's even made his peace with the water bed. I'll have to turf him out of my spot in the bed when I get there.

Update: GC has agreed to refund the cost of slab, credit me for install and remove the old marble counter in prep for replacement counter. We are amending contract and I am contracting direct with a new fabricator for replacement counter and install. I feel sad as things are understandably tense with the GC and we will not be working together after this project based on what has happened. What a drag.

And the miracle of miracles: the place where I bought the original slab learned of a fabricator who had an extra slab from the order of three they had sold to them so they connected the two of us. See the new slab I have on hold, from same batch of stone as my orignial slab. The layout is not quite as good but will percolate over the weekend - I love that warm color and think I can work with the layout. I love the little island in the stone!

And to be sure she does not get short changed, here is Babushka Cat's sister (Jasmine - from same litter). She is a love but I decided I did not want a counter her color. :)

:) I like happy endings.... congrats; well done.

babushka cat, good for you! I have been following your post but didn't comment as others had said everything I would suggest. As I recall, you also had to part ways with a cabinet maker part way through. Perhaps there is something I am not understanding, but it does not seem that your GC picks his subs very well. A short period of "tense" is a small price to pay for a kitchen you will live with for years. Glad you stayed the course and looking forward to seeing your new slab in!

I don't think I can type......I'm too mesmerized by Jasmine's piercing eyes. ;) I'm so happy you found a mostly suitable replacement slab and that you're handling the fabrication yourself. The GC tension must be AWK--ward. Yuck.

And since we've been OT on kitties, the great vet tech at the vet's office called to tell me that the pregnant female she just rescued had her kittens last week. They'll be ready for adoption around Halloween. We do plan on getting two cats in the near future when we're settled back in our house, but do I want little kittens?!? Not sure I'm up for crazy, wild, out of control kittens.

Have you ever noticed how Jasmine looks like she's wearing eyeglasses?

thanks all! hopefully it will have a happy ending. this has worn me out, GC AWK-ward tension is right, hope to never remodel again. my bathroom is in dire need but out of money and given this experience would rather hook up an outside shower in the back yard and just keep the GC's portapottie in the front yard! :) i used to think i wanted to do a full house remodel, now i know why people want to buy move in ready! i have learned a lot, it has been a good experience, i have my earned my stripes. (hey, kitties already have their stripes, how is that?!?)

the GC has generally been good and actually rescued me when the cab maker screwed up so i have to keep a balanced view of the overall experience. the two cabmakers the GC uses did not have demonstrated inset cab experience so he OK'd that i find my own cab maker. so i made the bad choice on the cab maker, all my fault. it was actually the cab makers finishing sub who screwed up - so the sub to the sub. and when the GC learned of this, instead of chewing me out, his exact words were: "what can i do to get this back on track?" and they picked up the door reorder and cab install on short notice when they were not planning for it (of course there was a change order involved and it did not come cheap).

i thought the lesson learned was use only GC approved subs. but then the counter debacle happended. so now i think things can happen anywhere with anyone. not sure i could have done anything different - i did quiz the GC - did the fabricator have marble experience etc and was told yes. i have seen his work at my neighbors house (engineereed stone counter) and he did an excellent job and was told he does lots of natural stone. i have learned in my research that calacatta is very hard to work with and prone to chipping and you need specific equipment. what is troubling is the GC continued to defend him and the product, epoxy patches and all.

yes, my little jasmine has quite dramatic eyes. her nickname is elizabeth taylor. i never noticed she is wearing glasses but you are right!

i would TOTALLY recommend getting 2 kittens. kitten love is the best, it allows you to train them the way you want (as much as you can train a cat anyway) and the kitten stage does not last very long. really glad i got 2 from the same litter. they keep each other company when i am at work and they are good buddies. the orange one dominates little jasmine though, he runs the show. they were found at 5 days old, from a litter of 5 and were bottle fed from a foster and then put up for adoption.

here is a pic from last night, babushka cat lying on his matching stone... (lighting not very good, sorry)

Ah, Jasmine is just gorgeous!

And yay! on the new slab and fabricator. It sounds like this will be a happy ending after all!

breezy, i think the 2 kittens for Halloween would be a great idea!