Hi...I'll leave the workflow pros to answer that question.

My one suggestion is, could you put a pocket door in the kitchen entry to the pantry? Having 2 door swings take up so much space seems like a lot. I'm assuming the 2nd entry is from the garage or entry?

I'll be keeping up on your progress...looks like your kitchen will be quite nice. Like your workflow arrows. :)

I'm not sure if you're working to scale...If so, will the ovens crowd the sink and cooktop when pulled out so the face is even with the cabinet faces on the adjacent walls? I know it's probably not drawn to size, but will you have space beside the prep sink for any prep work? Will you have room to store your dishes near the dishwasher?

Otherwise, the general work and food/dishes flow seems good to me. If you can get more workspace on the island if you do standard counters instead of the 30", I think I'd prefer it.

Thanks for the comments.

Melaska, I should have noted that I was going to use a pocket door on the kitchen side. I didn't have a little symbol for it! On the other side, it will be a swing door.

rhome410, I was trying to work to scale, but not all of it is correct. I didn't have exact dimensions for my sinks, the ovens, or the cooktop, so those are educated guesses. I was concerned about the ovens crowding the cleanup sink, but I thought I could move it down a little bit towards the other window on the same wall. The island is a question. I was trying to keep it small enough so that the aisle space around it was adequate. Right now, the way the island is drawn, the aisle space is 42". I was thinking that to keep the aisle wide, I might need to move the prep sink to one of the sides. The dishes are a problem. It is possible that the 30" counters won't work with the given space.

Can you move the pantry door around the corner, facing the FR? If so, then you could move the ovens next to the fridge, eliminating the crowding you have near the clean-up sink.

I also question the prep sink in that small island. Using the whole surface as prep space/landing space might be a better solution. No sink also opens up the possibility of adding dish drawers to the island.

Is there any reason why you can't a small cabinet to the left of the DW? It looks like you'd have room to extend the cabinet/counter to the window (or is that a door?), which would gain you more storage and more work space near your clean-up sink.

What is the 2nd plan you posted above all about? Are you eliminating the kitchen table and expanding the kitchen through that whole space? If so, then you have a lot more possibilities for lay-out.

I have a some questions...
Is this a new build or a remodel?
In the first pic, you show both a Dining Room & Kitchen Table...are they two separate table areas or are you eliminating one as the second pic suggests? I recommend eliminating one as they are so close to each other.
Are you going with "standard sized" appliances? 30" range/cooktop, 36" refrigerator (CD or standard-depth), etc.
Have you decided on whether you'll be getting a range or an induction cooktop?
It looks like you also want an oven stack...is that a double oven or a single oven + MW?
I'm curious...what is the "chapel"? When I think of a chapel, I think of church...

Finally, what is your family composition & how do you plan to use your kitchen? Here are some questions to answer to help us help you... (from the "Read Me" thread)

• What are your goals? E.g., more counter space, more storage, seating in the kitchen (island? peninsula? table?), etc.

What is your family composition? Adults? Children? Age ranges of children? Current? Future?
How many kitchen workers are there? Cook(s)? Cleanup? Helpers? Now? Future? (E.g., if you have young children, plan for them as teens for both "sizing" of seating as well as helping in the kitchen in general)
How do you see your kitchen used? Just for cooking/cleaning up? Children doing homework while you cook?
Do you entertain a lot? Formal? Informal?
Do you want your kitchen to be a "hang out" place? Parties only? Everyday?
Do you have a separate DR? Do you use it frequently? Infrequently? If infrequently, do you want to begin using it more frequently?
Would you like to open up the kitchen to adjacent areas? Close it up?
Do you plan to merge two rooms/areas (e.g., Nook and Kitchen into a Kitchen only)
Where are you flexible?

• Can windows or doorways change size?

• Can they be moved?

• Can windows be raised/lowered?

• Can any walls come down?

• Does the sink have to be centered under a window?

• Does it have to be under a window at all?

Note: The more constaints you put on a space (e.g., sink centered under a window, not willing to move plumbing, electric, or gas lines), the fewer options there are. So, be sure any limitations/constraints you mention are true constarints. You could say you'd like something to not be moved/changed or placed in a certain location, but if it's not a must or truly impossible, then mention it's a preference but that you would consider something different.
Do you bake? Do you want a coffee/tea/beverage center?
What appliances do you plan on having (helps to figure out work flow, work zones, and types of cabinets...upper/lower vs full height, etc.)

• Range or Cooktop?

• Single or Double or no Wall Oven?

• Warming Drawer?

• MW? (Advantium, MW Drawer, OTR MW/Hood, countertop, built-in, shelf?)

• DW? Standard or drawers? If drawers, 1 or 2?

• Refrigerator (Top/bottom freezer, SxS, or all-fridge/freezer? Counter-depth (CD),...

Ok, buehl, here are the answers to most of your questions.

Q: Is this a new build or a remodel?
A: New

Q: In the first pic, you show both a Dining Room & Kitchen Table...are they two separate table areas or are you eliminating one as the second pic suggests? I recommend eliminating one as they are so close to each other.
A: They are two separate areas.

Q: Are you going with "standard sized" appliances? 30" range/cooktop, 36" refrigerator (CD or standard-depth), etc.
A: Undecided.

Q: Have you decided on whether you'll be getting a range or an induction cooktop?
A: Cooktop, no range.

Q: It looks like you also want an oven stack...is that a double oven or a single oven + MW?
A: I was thinking of a convection and speed oven, or convection
and steam combo oven.

Q: I'm curious...what is the "chapel"? When I think of a chapel, I think of church...
A: The chapel is a worship space inside the home.

Q: What are your goals? E.g., more counter space, more storage, seating in the kitchen (island? peninsula? table?), etc.
A: I would like deeper counters if possible with seating at an island
or table.

Q: What is your family composition? Adults? Children? Age ranges of children? Current? Future?
A: 2 adults, one teenager. Frequent visitors.

Q: How many kitchen workers are there? Cook(s)? Cleanup? Helpers? Now? Future? (E.g., if you have young children, plan for them as teens for both "sizing" of seating as well as helping in the kitchen in general)
A: 2 adult cooks, one aspiring teen cook.

Q: How do you see your kitchen used? Just for cooking/cleaning up? Children doing homework while you cook?
A: Cooking, eating, visiting.

Q: Do you entertain a lot? Formal? Informal?
A: I am not sure what the definition of 'a lot' is, but I would say, a couple times a month.

Q: Do you want your kitchen to be a "hang out" place? Parties only? Everyday?
A: Yes, we hang out in the kitchen, everyday.

Q: Do you have a separate DR? Do you use it frequently? Infrequently? If infrequently, do you want to begin using it more frequently?
A: See above. Dining room is used infrequently now because it is an awkward space.

Q: Would you like to open up the kitchen to adjacent areas? Close it up?
A: It is an open floor plan.

Q: Do you plan to merge two rooms/areas (e.g., Nook and Kitchen into a Kitchen only)
A: The floor plan shows the kitchen opening up to a family room and an eating area adjacent to the kitchen.

Q: Where are you flexible?
Q: Can windows or doorways change size?
A:Yes
Q: Can they be moved?
A: Yes
Q: Can windows be raised/lowered?
A: Yes
Q: Can any walls come down?
A: Â.I like my walls.
Q: Does the sink have to be centered under a window?
A: I guess not.
Q: Does it have to be under a window at all?
A: Not really.

Q: Do you bake? Do you want a coffee/tea/beverage center?
A: Yes, we bake frequently. Not sure what a coffee center is.

Q: What appliances do you plan on having (helps to...

constantinople, it's great that you answered buehl's questions because this will help the kitchen gurus help you with your kitchen.

I'm assuming that one of your answers to buehl's questions applies to my question about the pantry door (perhaps you missed my post above buehl's long post?). It sounds like that door can be moved to the wall facing the FR. Is this something you'd consider? As I wrote above, doing so opens up the possibility of relocating the oven stack from the (crowded) corner between cooktop and sink to the fridge wall. btw, where does that other pantry door lead to? Does it really need to be a pass-through pantry? Two doors does cut down on storage.

You didn't, however, answer my other questions. What is the purpose of the 2nd plan you posted? And why did you not add a cabinet to the left of the DW?

Lisa,
Sorry, I missed your comments. I could move the pantry door, though I wonder if it makes sense 'around the corner'? The other pantry door faces the foyer to create a sensible workflow from the garage. If I lose that door, you have to walk all the way around to get into the kitchen.

I am not sure which 2nd plan you are referring to. I had posted a plan previously where I tried to use Ikea's website to create the kitchen plan, but it didn't work out well and there is no way to delete old threads.

Cabinets could be added to the left of the DW, but the cabinet maker was trying to dissuade me from doing so. I had thought it was a good idea, but he claimed it would make my kitchen sprawl too much. I am not sure if anyone has an opinion about that.

Thanks

Thanks for answering my questions.

In the first post in this thread, you posted a kitchen layout, showing sink, appliances, etc. Right below it is another plan, showing what looks to be 30" deep counters throughout the space (eliminating space for kitchen table) but without appliances or sink. This is what confused me. What is the purpose of posting this 2nd plan? If it's to give us dimensions of the space, then why show counter wrapped all around the room with a dimension of distance between counter on far right and counter on far left?

I understand the reason for the 2nd pantry door now, thanks. It sounds like you're okay with giving up pantry storage for a more direct path from garage to kitchen (understandable). The door I'm suggested you move is the pantry door that leads into the kitchen. If you move it so that it opens facing the FR not the kitchen, then you create a longer wall next to the fridge, which allows you to move the oven stack from its proposed crowded location.

I'd also line the pantry doors up, too, so it's a straight shot through the pantry - should make planning the shelving much easier if the space is symmetrical. Not sure I understand what you mean by "have to walk all the way around to get into the kitchen." We're talking a very slight additional distance. Instead of opening into the kitchen at the left end of the bottom pantry wall, it will open at the bottom end of the left pantry wall. Does this make sense?

Sprawl too much? I don't see that at all. The working part of the kitchen is roughly 15'6" x 10' (if I'm reading the dimensions in your 2nd drawing correctly). That's not sprawling. I'd add a cabinet - more storage and counter space would be useful - but that's just me.

I agree with buehl that since you have two seating areas so close to each other, one should be eliminated. If not that, then play one up and play one down. But I'm a bit confused about how you plan to use these spaces, especially since you wrote above "Dining room is used infrequently now because it is an awkward space." Are you talking about the DR in this house or in your previous home? If in this house, then how is your plan addressing that awkwardness?

Is one eating space intended for breakfast/casual use and the other for company? In other words, the former won't need to seat as many people at a time and might be used as overflow seating when company's over? If so, are you open to swapping out a kitchen table for seating at a peninsula or island or perhaps a banquette?

Lisa,

The second plan was just to show the dimensions. Sorry for the confusion.

I agree with extending the cabinetry to the left towards the other window, and have decided to do that.

The infrequent use of dining room refers to my current house. This is a new build, so it does not yet exist! :)

It was intended that one space would be formal, the other informal. I am open to island / peninsula seating.

bump...where did buehl go?

Sorry! Lost track of the thread! I'll look it over some more Sunday & Monday...lots planned w/the family, so it'll be on & off.

One way to minimize kitchen sprawl is to change cabinetry styles. Multi-style cabinetry is currently in style, even in an enclosed kitchen.

If you keep the working part of the kitchen contained inside the line of the left of page pantry wall, and make dish storage and miscellaneous storage in the window/seating area. The area between the two windows, for instance, is just crying for a dish hutch, which can be a built-in (usually a better use of space than free standing), in a different style and color than the kitchen proper. There can be a matching sideboard under the second window too, either built in or free standing.

I notice that you've eliminated all fenestration from the left of page wall by where the kitchen table is marked. I understand eliminating the extra door, but you should at least have a window. You'll be wishing there were a window there when it's built. Besides allowing a view of the terrace (arcade), the window would allow you to pass dishes in and out if you're dining al fresco.

Having a kitchen table right next to a formal dining table doesn't make much sense. You can "shorten" a big table when only two or three will be eating by putting a large centerpiece in the middle, and all sitting at one end. Add in island seating, and it becomes an awful lot of seating unless you're having dozens to sit down meals weekly and it's really just two company tables because you really do need that much seating.

What are the following dimensions for A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H?

How would you feel about consolidating the windows on one end or the other or in the middle? I was thinking you could put them on the seating end so you have a great view while eating...whether in the DR or Kitchen. Or, maybe have one big window in the Kitchen...

A coffee center (or beverage center) is a planned/designated location for a coffee machine that usually includes a nearby water source (for the coffeemaker if it's not plumbed directly) and the various items used for coffee (mugs, sugar, coffee, filters, etc.) Often there's also a small beverage refrigerator. It's usually on the periphery so someone getting coffee or another beverage or snack doesn't get in the way of those working in the kitchen. It's also usually located near everyday seating.

Is there any way to fiddle w/that DR?

Is there a reason the DR just sort of "hangs" there in the plans? It doesn't really seem to be located in a functional location b/c it's supposed to be formal but is in the middle of the house w/no walls, etc.. It's in the way of accessing both the LR & FR from the kitchen and seems to be more of an informal kitchen table space. (...It was intended that one space would be formal, the other informal...) It just seems very awkward.

Was the DR originally located where the Chapel is? That would explain the awkwardness...moving it elsewhere in a "make do" location.

Can you expand the plans at all to try and create a true DR?

PLLLOG,
Thanks for the idea, re sprawl. I think a dish hutch would be a great idea. Even though I don't show a window where the door used to be leading from the kitchen to the arcade, there is a window. I removed the door because I thought it was redundant -- maybe not?

BUEHL,
You and others find the DR / Kitchen relationship strange -- This is very likely the case. I am not sure what to do about it. The chapel was never the dining room. One thought was to make the family room the dining room and settle for just a Living Room.

The dimensions you requested are: A=5 1/2', B=4', C=5', D=4', E=4', G=9" (?), H=3'.

I am expanding the plans for further abuse!
Note that this is not the entire home. Also excuse some of the asymmetry, which will be corrected in the final plans.

{{gwi:2108622}}

Two Laundry Rooms?

Sorry, buehl, I should have explained. Yes, there are two laundry rooms. This is a generational home, designed to enable me to care for my aging parents in place. As such, there are two entire homes under a single roof (though attached in the interior).

I agree that the door where you took it out is redundant, though it could be nice depending on how you decide to arrange the furniture. If you can keep the paths to both doors clear, they're lovely. Otherwise windows would look better at one or the other location. BTW, are outswing doors allowed by code where you live? I'm guessing they are because you seem to have a competent architect, but since they're drawn in, I thought I'd ask.

Looking at the architect's plan again, I really do like the L with the island oriented this way better than the U. Since you liked the 30" counter idea, it would work well to put the fridge and oven stack together at one end of the L or the other, slide the cooktop nearer to the corner, and put the sink and dishwasher in the island. With dish storage in the dining area, and pantry and misc. storage in the pantry, that gives you a nice little working area. It was the location of the sink and that window that were making it difficult, but you've said you don't mind about those...

Two kitchens as well?

I'm going to suggest something here...feel free to say no since it's your home, but I would consider sharing the Laundry Room (the one on the far left) and merging the Laundry Room on the right w/the FR. Also take the Porch & part of the Arbor and make that part of the existing FR space. Then, create a DR and FR out of that.

If you stay with what you have, I think you're going to have to confine the kitchen to the space in your architect's plans and use the lower part up to the middle of the FR entrance as the DR.

Having the DR further up puts it in the way of one of the major traffic flows through the house...Kitchen to FR, Kitchen to LR, Kitchen to BR (not MBR), etc.

Did I read something on this forum that cabinets can't be mounted on a wall that houses a pocket door? Would that create a problem in this kitchen?

Buehl,

Let's stay focused! Ha ha. Great ideas if I wanted the entire house redesigned! :)

It's not too much of a change! (LOL!)

Here's one idea (with the same footprint, as requested).

I'm out the door for an anniversary dinner so I don't have time for an in-depth description...
It does, though... Separate your Cleanup Zone from the Prep & Cooking Zones
Provide seating both in the DR & in the kitchen
Create a DR that hopefully won't be too much of an obstruction
Put dish storage not only in the Cleanup Zone near the DW, but also near the eating areas (point of use)
Give you a great window to look out of from anywhere in the kitchen