Obviously, Angie's list companies and reliability vary from area to area. The Angie's list kitchen contractor we contacted wanted you to "buy" a plan and discount for the cabinets -- i.e., once you have paid them that money, you have some commitment to use them. I did not pay, but provided them with a plan/specifications and asked for their estimate. I did not get drawings (unlike the 3 other places I contacted), which was OK, since I didn't pay. However, it took them forever to get back with a quote, they were vague about whether they could actually provide the cabinet style/color I wanted, and their estimate was DOUBLE that of the other three. Although they had great Angie's list reviews, their "offer" seems more like a marketing ploy to me, rather than a genuine "deal." Hopefully yours is better, but I would go into any such deal with eyes wide open!

I can't answer your question properly (and I'll be interested in the responses from better informed people than me.)

But one point to consider: we've been talking with a contractor who has phenomenal feedback on Angie's List, and they also steered us to Panda. I visited the Panda showroom, and to be frank, it was awful. And I say that as someone who considered Cliq (6square) which is also made in China. The Panda salespeople didn't have time to speak with me, so perhaps I am judging unfairly, but in any case, I'd strongly encourage you to review their products closely.

BTW, when I expressed some doubt about Chinese-made cabinets (even before seeing them), the same contractor encouraged me to visit to another cabinet shop, which had only reputable, well-known brands, including the high-end custom stuff that is way beyond my budget. They showed me a product that (I think) was great. (Cabico Espresso, a semi-custom version of a custom cabinet line - other posters please re-educate me if I'm wrong.) The contractor has assured me that this would fit my budget.

I've not even attempted the "packages" offered by some Angies List firms that @legallin mentioned - they seem too good to be true, and in any case my small kitchen needs a lot of more structural work than the average home.

After several well-publicized issues with products from China, I'm a little leery of Panda also. Never heard of them til this contractor came to do the estimate. Though he said he'll go to any showroom with us that we want to visit.

We're thinking maybe we need to pay someone to do a design and then shop it around for estimates (including the two we've already spoken with). That way, we'd have specifics on materials.

In general, I am not in favor of any bid that includes allowances - IMHO those tend to favor the contractor, and homeowners often feel obliged to stay within those allowances, even when they really want something different. Sometimes the contractors even require you to use certain brands and/or retailers. This also seems to happen a lot on new builds where owners end up complaining that they're limited to appliances they don't want or have to pay a huge upgrade charge.

In my case, I used a custom cabinet maker/contractor who actually encouraged me to buy all the appliances and countertops on my own. Worked out very well that way.

Mary_md7, you don't happen to be in MD do you? I wonder if we are talking to the same contractor. Our proposed "allowances" were the same figures. Hmm.

Yes, in Maryland, kind of near DC.

Small world. We're right outside DC. I bet it's the same firm. They've now upped the allowance and will write Cabico into the contract. My kitchen is quite small (a very narrow galley in an awkwardly expanded but still small house). I need my sink moved on a slab and a load-bearing wall opened up, plus lots of electrical work. This firm has been the most responsive although the quote is higher than I'd like. Fwiw the other cabinet shop I visited with them is Montgomery Kitchen & Bath in Gaithersburg which carries everything from Plain & Fancy and other high-end brands - no Chinese junk (again, with apologies on that point, since I'm sure that there some decent Chinese brands). I liked MK&B m a lot and they had good things to say about the contractor.

Your quote may be higher than you like, but your guideline should be around 10-20% of your home's value for a kitchen redo. In an expensive metro area like DC, 6-10% for a redo, 15% for adding structural changes like moving walls and cutting up a slab. And yes, I've never found any Chinese cabinets that were worth putting in a home. Even a low budget flip deserves better.

@hollysprings - I get your point, although those percentages don't really work in a crazy real estate environment like this (in my zip code, teardowns go from 500k to apparently as high as $1m for the right spot.) Few few houses here would meet those percentages.

My point about the quote being high is that it is much higher than the contractor affiliated with the local Ikea for a similar proposal. But the Ikea contractor has no track record that I can find and is a local affiliate of a larger Ikea installer, Traemand, that seems to have a mixed feedback, plus it's taken a month and six emails/phone calls to even get the proposal. The other contractor has great reviews and has been in touch constantly, so I'm more inclined to go that route now that we've gotten past the initial push for a Chinese product. Fwiw, I've talked to 4 or 5 other kitchen firms over the past 2 years as I've been thinking about this and they have mostly not been keen to take on a project that entails slab work or a structural engineer.

I went with a contractor who billed me for labor only. In my area, this is unconventional. However, the more I thought about it, the more it made sense to me. The contractor wants to make a certain wage, regardless of customer choices. Likewise, I did not want to be locked into any contractors preferred (aka kick back) purchases.

I priced most materials with multiple quotes and my contractor gave me quotes from places he often uses and I selected what I wanted. I did this for cabinets, granite, plumbing fixtures, tile, windows, doors, plumber and electrician. I bought my own light fixtures. I went to a few showrooms to look at roof and siding options and got quotes for the 'square' cost (different from sq foot cost) and compared to my contractors price. Material were billed to me and delivered / picked up by my contractor the same day in most cases. I never paid money for materials I didn't have (except cabinetry and granite deposits). An added bonus was that I got frequent flier miles on my credit card for all my material purchases. And I so need a vacation after this renovation.

To me, this business model is fair for the contractor who does not have to worry about the bottom line profit margin on a daily basis and also did not have to write up charge orders.

Good luck to you mary_md7. Finding the right person for the job is never easy. Do you know of anyone who used either of these contractors? Personal referrals speak much louder to me than any online, anonymous review.

You should line up the bids so that you are comparing like-for-like items, so you can see which is more cost-effective. Make estimates where one contractor is bidding in a different way than the other.

Given your budget, I think it would be better to have a contractor who only charged for labor, or who didn't do any markup on material costs. That way you will have more transparancy on everything that you pay for.

If the second contractor gives an allowance for an item, but doesn't charge any mark-up, then it doesn't really matter -- I assume he'd just pass on any additional cost if you picked something that cost more than the allowance.

I did not read all your follow up posts, but it sounds like you could use an independent kitchen designer with 2020 design software and access to several pricing catalogues. That's what I do. If you do a search for Independent Kitchen Designer, you may find someone local (although local is not mandatory)
It's by far the best way to 'shop' a kitchen without commitments, design fees or multiple in home visits... "Here's my kitchen, price this please"
Allowances might be lowballed.