I am not one of the layout experts, but here's my opinion.

1) I would not open the walk in pantry to the kitchen. I think by doing that you are cutting off a very usable portion of your kitchen that could be used for counter space, double ovens, dish storage, small appliance appliance storage, or something.

2) I wouldn't build your kitchen in a way to block of the hallway to the garage and master (or make you go around something to get to it). Seems like an awkward pattern and anyone who came in through the garage would be walking right through your workspace

3) I like your first proposed design. The only change that I would make is to maybe make the bottom run of cabinets a U shape instead of an L shape. Would give you a little more counter and storage space and a place to use as a landing place for serving and clearing from your kitchen table.

4) I'm not sure about the baking area near the kitchen table. Would you really bake here? Its far from your sink, oven, etc. Maybe this would be better served as storage for serving dishes, placemats, special occasion items, etc.

I hope this helps!

Rachel

What about something like this?

This opens things up without encroaching too much into your traffic lanes or breakfast area. I know you said you didn't want to move appliances, but you could have a substantially better flow if you did. As for a reason for moving the pantry door, I think it gives you more usable storage space, especially if the new door is a pocket door. I like the idea of a base cab in the pantry to give you a counter for a MW or toaster oven, but I would put open shelving above it.

If you post the pictures in your thread, you're likely to get more responses. (Plus, it's a weekend, the Forum is usually slower on the weekend.)

Have you had a chance to read the "Read Me" thread? It has a lot of good information. One of the posts discusses information that is helpful to us when working on a layout. The "Read Me" thread is linked below. In it, scroll down to the post about layouts.

Don't worry so much about the "triangle". Try to focus on "Zones" instead...the primary ones are: Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and Cleanup Zone and work flows in that order. Ideally, you want to keep the Prep & Cooking Zones close together and the Cleanup Zone separated from them. What you do need, though, in the Prep Zone, is easy access to a water source and trash/recycle. Depending on the layout, this may mean two sinks...a Cleanup Sink & a Prep Sink, which is often useful when you have a crowd over (or if you have a family in the future). (# of sinks is not necessarily driven by kitchen size, rather by layout and functionality.)

(See the "Read Me" thread for some brief descriptions of each and what goes in them--I think it's in the "Storage" post.)

Here are your pictures/ideas. (I've numbered them so they can be easily referenced if/when discussed.)

Layout #1:

Layout #2:

Layout #3:

Layout #4:

Layout #5:

[BTW...if you turn on your email option in your Profile, you can ask to have followups emailed to you for future threads. It's too late for this one, but it's very useful. See the "Read Me" thread & scroll down to the "Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process" post.]

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

I actually think the general idea of your current layout isn't bad...and it does add some "interest" to the kitchen.

How about something like this?

• It separates the Prep & Cooking Zones from the Cleanup Zone

• Puts the Prep & Cooking Zones near each other

• Protects the Cooking Zone from through traffic and casual traffic (a big plus, btw)

• Puts the refrigerator next to the DR as well as a straight shot from the Nook w/o getting in the way of someone prepping or cooking

• The MW is on the periphery so a snacker using it will not get too much in the way of someone prepping or cooking

• Gives you a pantry cabinet in the kitchen in case you think the Pantry is too far to walk. This pantry would hold things used every day like cereal, etc.

• Keeps the walk-in Pantry where it is, but makes takes out the bump on top...but you could put it back in/leave it if you prefer. I didn't know if you could use it for something else since I don't know what the layout of that part of the house is.

• Does not infringe on any of the walkways or the Nook

• Gives you 3 seats on the angled peninsula

• I wasn't sure if there was a wall on the "bottom" of the kitchen, but if so, you could take it down and open the kitchen up to the Great Room as well as the Nook. Now you can prep & cook while watching TV or visiting with others.

• Assuming no wall, the 27" wide cabinet "below" the range is turned 90 degrees so it faces the Great Room. This is a better use of storage than a corner susan and far, far better than a blind corner cabinet.

I know you wanted to leave the sink, range, and refrigerator where they were...but then you really cannot fix the workflow and traffic problems in the kitchen as those items are part of the primary Zones.

You did also say you were willing to see other options...!

One of the issues I saw w/the current layout is the range location...unprotected and very little landing & work space on both sides. Other issues, of course, are the separation of the Prep & Cooking Zones and the zone-crossing that has to occur just to prepare & cook a meal. I don't see these issues fixed in your layout options...which may be why you aren't happy with them.

Thank you so much for the help, guys! This is why I love gardenweb. Everyone is so helpful.

Buehl--Thanks for posting the floorplans. I wasn't quite sure how to post the pics. I'd read through the "Read Me If You're New" post and tried posting them from the site they're on, but failed miserably and gave up. I've now posted some pictures on flicker and embedded them at the end of this post.

Holligator--Thank you for that wonderful floorplan! I am seriously considering moving the fridge to that wall because it makes so much more sense near the pantry. However, there are 2 things holding me back: creating a new vent for new range placement (we're going to get an estimate on this) and the fact that (if you look at the pics posted below you will see) the wall with the stove seems to be the "focal" wall of the kitchen and i tend to think of a stove with a great backsplash as more "focal" than a fridge. Beauty or function and saving a few steps between fridge and pantry? I can't decide!

I'm curious as to why everyone suggests leaving the kitchen within its current boundaries. It is much smaller than I would like. I am a multi-dish cook and I like to spread out--nasty habit I can't kick. However, I'm usually the only cook (boyfriend doesn't even understand salt) and so a prep-sink just seems like an excessive luxury to me. I clean dishes as I cook, so my main sink is seldom full. I'd rather have the extra countertop. Now, I understand not wanting to block the traffic flow through the hallway--that is my biggest concern in wanting to expand the kitchen. However, the breakfast nook area will be totally unused. We will not be putting any kind of breakfast-nooky thing there. It's not our style and so the entire space will simply go to waste. My concern is still making these two areas feel unified so that the kitchen "feels" bigger. Maybe I should do this via some kind of decorating trick rather than by extending countertops or an island across the walkway? While my boyfriend doesn't see a problem with the pantry's current location (across from the master bedroom), he seems to think there's nothing wrong with blocking this path. But like I said, he doesn't really do the cooking.

Here are some pictures of the current kitchen.

we are getting rid of the hanging soffit to make the kitchen feel more open. by putting some open shelves and probably shaker or square cabinets, we hope to add some of the architectural-feeling back to the space.

here you can kind of see the awkward message nook and immediately next to is the walk-in pantry. past the pantry, on the left, is the laundry room which leads to the garage. at the bottom of the hall will be our office. the door to the master bedroom isn't visible from this angle, but it is on the right across from the pantry door.

the walk-in pantry is only as deep as about to the end of the cabinets on the stove wall....

What if the "breakfast nook" space became the pantry, and the current pantry was added to the laundry area?

Personally I don't care much for the angle: since it is not reiterated anywhere else in the general space, I don't think it adds much architecturally. However, it may add to to function.

Without the pantry eating up space in #5, you could slide that whole complex to the left and get the range in a more reasonable location along that run. I would leave a bit of room to recess the fridge. I think I would like #5 better if it were modified.

Is there any way to move the MBR door further down the hall without messing up the circulation in the bedroom? I don't like being able to look right into bedrooms from public areas. That is one of the things that bothers me about the plan. If it doesn't bother you, don't worry about it :)

So you have no plans for "casual kitchen table" type of dining? OK... This is not meant to be nosy or too personal, but if you're buying a house together, are you planning on starting a family anytime soon? Anytime while you're in this house? If so, then you need to plan for (1) more than one person in the kitchen since you'll probably have children wanting to "help" and (2) a place for them to eat breakfast or lunch or do crafts nearby while you're working in the kitchen...without getting in the way of possibly dangerous activities (knife use, carrying boil pot of water to the sink from the range, etc.).

You need to decide which is more important to you...form or function? It sounds like what you really want is a bigger kitchen...not necessarily a more functional one...

It's OK if form is more important to you than function, after all, it's your kitchen. But be honest w/yourself about it and accept that you might have a somewhat dysfunctional kitchen if form trumps function. We all have different needs/wants...that's what makes the world so interesting!

Also note that if you insist on leaving the existing appliances & fixtures where they are, one of the consequences is that you may have to do a lot of walking and shooing people out of the way while working. (It's our "job" to point out negatives as well as positives!)

Would you be willing to close up the current DR door and move it down? That would make a huge difference and I think you just may be able to get what you want...both functionally & aesthetically...

Here are a couple that essentially leave the range, sink, and refrigerator in-place. The difference and what makes it work, is the move of the DR doorway I mentioned in a previous post.

* The 30" deep base cabinet in the Beverage/Snack Center could also be a standard 24" deep but brought out 6" from the wall. The counter then covers the entire depth & it looks like you have 30" deep cabinets. This gives you a lot of counter room for snacks, etc. You could even store a toaster or toaster oven here b/c there's plenty of work space...width (75") and depth (31.5")...counting overhangs & filler against the wall.

As I was making another layout, Buehl posted her Layout B, which I love. It also probably makes a lot more sense than mine. That one is very functional, would look wonderful, and wouldn't be as drastic (i.e., costly) as the one I made. Still, I'll post this anyway, just to help you think outside the box.

{{gwi:2108997}}

This plan would enlarge your kitchen area considerably. It makes the current walk-in pantry part of the hallway to the master bedroom. This would eliminate the traffic issues and makes the bedroom door more private.

On the other hand, all the appliances, plumbing, and venting move and the window would have to be altered to make the bottom counter height. It's hard to tell what kind of view you have out back, but having the window right there would brighten up the kitchen and make doing dishes or prepping near the sink much more pleasant. The cabinet in the breakfast area would be a tall cabinet pantry (15" or so deep).

Buehl- I don't mind answering the questions. After all, it's all very important to planning the kitchen. While my BF and I will likely remain childless, should we one day decide to sell the house, we don't want it to be a turn-off to potential buyers with kids.

I do not so much want a bigger kitchen as I want a bigger-feeling kitchen. Right now it is totally closed in by the angled counter and the hanging soffit, and with the window so far away (and those hideous oak cabinets) it feels incredibly dark and gloomy.

Function is, of course, my first priority, but any major changes have to be balanced against a budget that also covers new flooring for the whole house, full master bath remodel, and partial remodel of 2 additional baths. All before move-in in December (HAHAHHAHA... yeah, right!).

The whole thing is quite an undertaking for a young-ish couple who has been renting forever and seldom had to repair even a leaky sink, which is why I am so appreciate of everyone's comments and suggestions and taking *everything* into consideration.

I REALLY like the idea of moving the entry to the DR (not sure how BF will feel about it) because it gives you the much longer run which is what this kitchen so desperately needs.

Do you think the pantry in the corner by the window would block too much light from the window? I do like the idea of merging the existing walk-in pantry with the ever-so teeny laundry room. I'm going to play around with these two layouts. Thank you.

BTW, what software do you use for your floorplans? I was looking at SmartDraw, but found it too cumbersome with all the business extras. Then, I was about to enter my credit card info to purchase PUNCH!, but stopped to read some reviews and they were absolutely terrible.

Holligator-Thank you for the idea. I would LOVE a window over the sink. Every house I've ever lived in has had a window over the sink. This window looks out into the patio and the pool area, which sit under a screened enclosure because this is Florida and mosquitos are the size of antelope and more prolific than rabbits. The bushes and plants around the enclosure are overgrown and so you can't see past the enclosure into the rather gorgeous, large yard. Those bushes are deep, deep down on the list of projects. Anyways, I ramble... while I would love a window over my sink, I think I have to resign myself to the fact that that is not the house we bought. Rearranging everything to make it possible would mean skimping on the rest of the projects or even not doing them at all, and that's simply not an option.

We are visiting cabinet shops this weekend and hopefully we can decide on a floorplan. I will keep everyone posted.

Thanks again!

I don't use anything fancy...I use MS PowerPoint.

To start, I downloaded free graph paper from the web and copy & pasted it to a MS PowerPoint slide.

I resized it to the scale of 0.8" = 24". This means 1 grid box on the graph paper represents 6"x6".

Then I created "stock" appliances, doors, windows, etc. using the above scale (0.8" on the layout to represent 24" in real life) and saved it all as a template.

Now when I work on a layout, I make a copy of the template and work on it there. I save each slide/layout option as a separate "jpeg" file, crop/resize as necessary using MS Picture Manager, upload the results to Photobucket, and post here.

Note: I generally try to crop nonessentials out of the layout and then resize using %-ages so I don't distort the picture and try to make it no more than 400 pixels in each direction. (E.g., if its 4000x3000 to start, I'll resize it to 400x300 using "10%"...same proportions but the max dimension is 400.)

My remaining question is how important is a walk-in pantry to you? Could you live with a full-height pantry cabinet where Buehl has the beverage/snack center in the breakfast area?

The only other thing I would change with her Layout B is putting the pull-out trash in the island instead of next to the stove. I use mine mostly for prep and clean-up, both of which will likely take place at that sink, so having the trash there would be more convenient. I'd then combine the 12" base with that 18" space and put 30" drawers in that spot.

Being a Floridian myself, I certainly know that mosquito problem well!

I really like the B layout a lot. I think having room for a small table will matter to a lot of future buyers. And I love that the fridge isn't the main focal point when looking in to the kitchen. We're remodeling our kitchen in large part to get rid of that annoying layout. I would move the trash pullout either under the sink or next to it. A full height double trash pullout takes an 18" cabinet. The shorter one with drawer over the top takes a 15".

Because your entryway into the area is so wide I think you have room for the curved island to stick into the family room a bit and really be a nice feature. I'd be tempted to put a 12" deep row of cabinets on the seating side - you might be able to push it a little wider to make that work and get nice storage for things you don't use much plus a really eye catchingly big island.

Layout 3 is ok but it seems to me like the dishwasher is a long way from where the dishes will go and you don't have a work area on both sides of the sink.