hmmm...having difficulty attaching my layout (which are in adobe reader). Will try to read through instructions again!

aha! So the layout below is shown with the option of a 3 ft across, 4 foot wide island, no seating. Keeping the kitchen table. Not sure how to enlarge it so you can see the measurements though!

here is what the island is blocking in the photos...

Turn the table 45 degrees and attach it to the island. Add a prep sink to the island. Move the hulking fridge and pantry onto the wall to the right of the entrance. The corner by the fridge is a cave otherwise, and you've only added to the looming skyscraper feeling by putting the pantry across from it. If you need a "bar" area, put that in the family room where it belongs. Otherwise make the current fridge space you coffee and snack area with the MW located there.

I do like the idea of moving my "hulking" fridge over (and indeed it is hulking)...would love to swap it out for a cabinet depth, but it is only 3 years old...maybe). I just wonder if it is then too far out of my "work triangle"?

So, I am going to have the KD play with the fridge/pantry layout, but here is another idea for the island... The dining room is directly behind the island, but up 2 steps. Sliding glass doors look out to backyard.

one more...
view into kitchen from dining room:

Good design for a family is understanding how to create an environment that complements and helps the family be the best it can be as a family.

Regarding the dining room usage: as long as you have a kitchen table, you will not use the DR much. This is how people operate. The kitchen table is the nearest area you can eat as a family together from where the food comes, so that is what people do. You will have be committed to making the usage of DR important in your life.

If you can get rid of the kitchen table, put in a large island with seating, you will be forced to use the dining room by necessity. Is this an option for you? Just asking...

In my house we do not have a kitchen table. We eat on the dining table every night because I feel that it is important that we eat on the table, not at the kitchen island. Our island seats our family of 4 very comfortably and we eat breakfast on the island every week day. We have for years. We eat breakfast in the DR on weekends. When the kids were in a high chair, they sat next to us on the island at breakfast.

You also have to be realistic about your family's hours: does your husband (or you) not come home early enough to eat together as a family with small children? If so, you probably won't feed your kids in the DR no matter how the kitchen/DR is set up. Most of us are too harrowed for that...

As your kids get older, you can push the dinner time somewhat later. My kids are 12 and 9, and we eat around 7:00 or even later now. That may help you with the dinner together. When they were younger, they ate without one of the parents at times. But then, as they get older, sports schedule messes up the dinner schedule!

Good luck. Just reminding you that things change significantly. Don't design your kitchen/house for now. I am giving you some inkling of how things change.....

My 12 yo will not do his homework in his room. We offered to make a huge homework area in the daylight basement in front of a large window (lots of natural light). He said no. he prefers to be in the common room and the kitchen island with everyone else.... Other kids may prefer the privacy. It will be nice if there is space for both; ie kitchen island/table or a private desk in their room for homework.

You are right, I know things will change over the years to come. Already, I am getting a taste of sports schedules getting in the way of a family dinner (who is in charge of scheduling soccer practice for 6 year olds from 6-7pm, anyway!?).
In our previous house we didn't have space for an eat-in kitchen, so we always used the dining room and I didn't miss what I didn't have.
Right now we don't have island seating and it is appealing to me, also I would love to have a reason to use our dining room! I think I would be fine without a kitchen table, but my KD is trying to convince me otherwise.

Food for thought, I guess.

Why do you need 3 places to eat? That would be my basic question. A large island with seating and a dining room is more than most people ever use. Your DR is close. Maybe widen the door a bit if you want it to seem more a part of the social kitchen area, or make it easier to get in and out with serving pieces, but USE it for regular meals. A pocket door or a french door would be able to be closed when you wanted a more formal feeling of separation.

Then make the kitchen/breakfast area actually work as a large kitchen, which perhaps means rethinking the space as a whole rather than as two separate kitchen and breakfast areas. The box just got bigger, and thinking outside of it became a smidge more important. Anyone can do a check the boxes off kitchen. It takes a creative mind to reinterpret the entire space.

FWIW here is are some photos of my current space...

Taken from dining room, looking in (actually there is a hallway between the dining room and kitchen, which is where this was taken from):

I also hate how much our huge pantry bumps out into the kitchen (although I do love all of the space that the pantry provides).

Thanks for the ideas, would love other thoughts! Maybe we just need to suck it up and sell our current fridge, and buy an integrated one...but that of course eats into our already tight budget.

Treating the space as one, with the added additional cabinetry, are you sure you even need a pantry? Could you put some storage in the DR? What about an adjacent laundry area? Can you draw out the hall/DR/adjacent rooms/closets area?

I think putting a counter depth (not built in!) where the pantry is now and creating a MW snack zone next to it would get The Hulk out of the corner domination. The large island/table seating gives you a gathering center for homework and family breakfasts. I like the idea of enlarging the doorway a bit to the DR and using a french door to close it off when needed. That would make the "trek" from the kitchen area to the DR seem more natural.

But, there's always the other side where you take that DR and turn it into a study with a fireplace and bookshelves. If you never use it now, are you going to be able to force yourself to use it post remodel? The only way to know is to start using it NOW for daily meals and decide if that does work for you. It may not. Then you'd be back to the idea of a small work island and kitchen table.

Time to to a time/motion study. Try using the DR for a week as your exclusive meal spot. And, time to clean out your closet or DR buffet and your current cabs. Purge anything you haven't used in a year's time, and for the stuff that you've only used once or twice in that year (like a fondue set), find some place out of the kitchen to store it. Repurpose what you have and see how that lives before spending money to create a space that only works in your head rather than in how you live your real life.

You have great space and you can do alot. I think you have to decide on your "musts / needs" vs. your "wants." If you are a family of 5, I think you want 5 seats at the island. I am facing this decision too as my current design only has 3 stools at island and we are a family of 4. I am also rethinking all the stols lined up in a row.

Maybe you would consider integrating your family room and kitchen a bit more by arranging FR furniture in a different way (so couch is not such a divider). Maybe look at some "great room" layouts for ideas.

My kids are a bit older than yours and I want an island and kitchen table (and I have a separate small DR, seldom used, but I like the formal area). I know I want a desk in the room where we plan to put our family computer.

If you want to keep the fridge where it is, then an option is to just switch up the pantry and the drinks/buffet set-up.
I noticed on the drawings that there are a lot of lower cabinets. This may be just the program you're using but whereever you can use drawers, drawers are the best thing for lower storage. So, except for a lazy susan corner (and even there people have come up with ingenious ideas for drawers) and trash pull-out put in drawers.

Quote: "We don't have enough storage currently" In the drawings I see a lot of cabinets with doors. Replace these with full-extension, soft-close drawers everywhere you can. The amount of stuff drawers hold is enormous and the greatest thing is: it will all come to you (instead of you having to root through the back of a cabinet)! Maybe keep one cabinet for tall items, but drawers are the way to go! I have an all-drawer kitchen, even a pull-out under the sink for garbage and going with drawers was the best decision I made in designing the kitchen.

HTH, Petra

While trying out your DRM, get rid of the table in the kitchen. Is your DRM furniture a bit too "nice" for feeding time at the zoo? If it is, maybe put the kitchen stuff in there for the trial? Frame a couple of the children's artworks and hang them in there?

Greendesigns- here is the layout of our first floor. The only thing that has changed since this was drawn is that our deck now expands 10 feet across the back (middle) of the house. And instead of a single door, we now have a slider as shown in our kitchen designs, above.

Because our mudroom/hallway runs in between the kitchen and dining room, I'm not sure that expanding that doorway is an option? We are planning to put a built in (wooden locker type cabinet) along the wall that buts up to the kitchen...goodness knows we need as much organization as we can get in the mudroom, and it's a small space to begin with!
Sadly, out laundry "room" is housed in our powder room...why the previous owners thought that was a great idea, I am not sure. We have a curtain closing the washer and dryer off right now because doors don't fit. It doesn't look as bad as it sounds, but it's a little tacky. My only other option seems to be moving the laundry down to the basement, but I'm not thrilled with that idea either.
I can store kitchen items that I use only once or twice a year in the basement though.
We use our formal living room as more of a study...fireplace, desk with computer, bookshelves.

good advice to start using the dining room now. My husband took a leaf out of the table to make it more manageable (It is BIG at it's full extension...can seat 12), and now it looks more homey, with seating for 8. I think if I remove the chandelier and put in a pendant drum, perhaps I can cut some of the formality.

chily ny-
Unforunatley I tried and failed to rearrange the furniture in the great room. One wall has large french doors, another has windows, and third wall houses our entertainment center with flat screen TV. It's a shame, because I would love the sectional to face the windows, but then we would block the french doors.

blfenton and Petra- Changing the lower cabinets to all drawers in on my list of things to go over with the KD this week...I am in complete agreement!

rosie- that's a great idea to give it a trial run. The dining room is a bit too nice for my little monkeys, but I think I can work it out. Our kitchen table is tiny for the space (3x5 feet in a dining room that is 16x12), so I think I will just make the current set a bit more kid friendly!

oh, and our china is kept in a hutch in the dining room.

I am not liking the direction you are moving in through these later designs, putting an Atlantis-sized continent in the middle of your kitchen. I'd keep the traffic lanes a little more open.

I hear you, Marcolo. Atlantis is definitely not the look I am after. I do have a minimum of 42" is all aisles (48" between island and sink as well as island and stove), but Maybe I can make the island smaller. Just need to figure out how to get seating in there for 4 or 5.

If you want to keep casual family meals in this area, I'm thinking of a all work smaller island with only one or two "perching" seats for the cook and a helper, while you create a counter height table with stools as a "sofa table" behind your current sofa. That gives you a bit more snack/breakfast area but doesn't interfere with traffic patterns too badly. And it keeps you focused on using your DR as the main family location to eat meals.

Hi all,
So I have gone through yet another round of ideas with the kitchen designer, but I am still not feeling it. I know I need to somehow change the configuration of the island and make it smaller....definitely still feels like "Atlantis", as Marcolo mentioned.
The Kitchen Designer did try and remedy the "skyscraper" issue, and I love the more open feel of getting rid of our current pantry and replacing it with the beverage center/ glass upper cabinetry. The question is, where to put the new pantry?!

Also, our gigantor fridge sticks out from the wall 31". We definitely feel it's worth it to buy a new counter depth, which should save us about 5 inches (am I right? A counter depth will be 24" plus the doors?).

Is the "U" shape that we are trying to create just to much for this space? We do need more storage, but I want the kitchen to feel light and airy, clean, uncluttered. I'm afraid I am creating a cramped space here.

Help! I am totally open to complete reconfiguration, I just don't know where to go from here, I have a hard time visualizing things and I think I am pretty spatially challenged.

The latest idea, with Pantry moved (picture the fridge moved in about 5"):
{{!gwi}}
{{!gwi}}
{{!gwi}}
{{!gwi}}

I am still really struggling with layout options.

A few decisions have been made since I last posted:
- we will be getting rid of our kitchen table altogether.
- we would really like a square shaped island- thinking approx. 4 feet across, 5 feet deep. seating for 2 on the end that backs up to the family room, with one seat on each of the sides that back up to the sliding glass door and the current pantry wall.
-We are thinking that the front half of island will be storage (sink side), the back half will be overhang with nice legs.
- we have been eating in (and ENJOYING eating in) our dining room. This is where we will eat anytime all 5 of us are together, so no need for 5 seats in kitchen.
- we will be buying a counter depth fridge to give us a few more inches of aisle space along that wall (or wherever we decide to put the fridge).
- although I would really like a 36" range, I am open to a 30" if it makes a big difference in layout.
- although we can not change doorways, we are open to moving the window.
- I believe that all appliances and sink can be moved (need to confirm with contractor, but we are willing to put forth the $$ in order to get a layout we love).
-would be open to getting rid of the upper corner cabinets (the layouts she has given me all have FOUR lazy susans, one in each corner. No thanks).

-Kitchen is 187 1/4" wide (sink wall) x about 177" long (it is one big kitchen/family room, so the 177 could gain or lose a few inches depending on design). If I we do the 4'x5' island, and I am adding this up correctly, that should give me 42+" of clearance between the counters and Island, and also between fridge (in it's current space, but counter depth) and island. I will have 48" between island and sink (in it's current location). I will have 6'1" between island and back of sofa (not including seating).

Any ideas would be so appreciated. I feel like my KD is being quite patient with me, but she is not great at thinking out of the box. I wish I had the skills to come up with some great ideas on my own, but I am clearly lacking in that department!

Do you have a bigger/clearer pic of the layout that has all your measurements (wall/door/window widths and the distance b/w each of the walls/doors/windows)?

Buehl,
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. A friend of mine (who is an interior designer, NOT a KD) actually emailed me this idea last night. She has a good eye for clean, simple lines (which is one of my goals). It gets rid of the sky scraper effect that I currently have going, and I am thrilled with that.

Hopefully you can read all of my measurements on this plan...I had to scan it in and they kept getting cut off!

I was thinking about a few tweaks to this plan;
If I move DW to left of sink, and put an 18" Trash pullout to the right of sink, maybe I can expand the skinny little pantry (full height cab)?

also, now that there are no cabinets or appliances on former fridge wall I can expand the doorway between the kitchen and mudroom by 6-12". Thoughts?

FYI all of those bulky shapes on the left side are various types of furniture that she just used as "filler" until we decide on what save/ what to buy new.
Any other thoughts on this are greatly appreciated!

FWIW, I had emailed her some photos of the Brooklyn Limestone kitchen as some inspiration (even though I had been thinking about more of a square shaped island).

Here is a link that might be useful: Brooklyn Limestone Kitchen

Nice! Sounds like you're making some great progress. I can't tell--are the doorways on that last version able to line up to give you a nice clean "enfillade" from DRM to doors to back garden?

Thanks Rosie! I am feeling MUCH better about this layout, though it may still need a little tweaking and I am ion to suggestions!

The doorways don't line up perfectly, but there will definitely be a nice wide walkway between the island and sofa.

My only real concern now is that our pantry will only be 18" wide. I have 3 kids, so we go through a lot of cereal/snacks/dried goods. We do have space for overflow in the basement though. Not sure it is possible to get a wider one in and maintain the cleaned up space I now have going.

Does anyone have any advice on how I should set up my island? I don't want the island to be as long as shown in the drawing above, especially because the designer didn't factor in the fact that there is a step down from the mudroom into kitchen (10"). Do you think a 42" walkway would be enough clearance there?
Maybe I should make the island more like 5 1/2' long?

If you moved over the doorway to the DR as well as the door to the kitchen, you could use the hallway space between the entrances and the bathroom as a sort of "walk through" pantry. Is there any other space at all on the ground floor that could contain a powder room? Without the powder room in the way there, that could be a very nice sized laundry/pantry/mudroom area. I'm not getting those stairs by the closet/garage area. Where do they go? How do you get into the house from the garage? I'm also wondering about that closet area there and if it could be tweaked to be a powder room.

Thanks for your response, Live wire oak.
So those weird stairs are actually from the backyard, down into the basement. We can't get into our house from the garage. It is attached, but there is no door From the garage into the house (you have to come out of the garage and go in through the side entryway).
I would certainly be open to moving the powder room, I just don't know where we could put one?
And I cant quite visualize how/ where to move the doorways?
Also, this may not be our forever house. It is in a great neighborhood, but on a busy street. We don't want to put so much money into the house that we lose a lot if/when we decide to sell.

Good points about not trying to fix everything. Pick your best battles. So, I take it the garage floor is several steps below the mud room floor, that you have steps on the front of the house going up to the mudroom door? Making adding a direct door in out of the question?

This last design is more compact, but a couple that came before that gave me the idea you might be trying use the island to fill space left empty by not having a table. If that were the case, I just wanted to suggest doing that by rethinking furniture arrangement in and use of the family room part, for instance adding four comfy upholstered armchairs gathered around a coffee table. Or?

Someone mentioned the tremendously increased storage space switching to drawers will gain you. With that in mind, you might even consider keeping the same basic arrangement you have now, and improving within that L counter (so no need to move the door to the back yard), but changing your island to suit your needs. It could be excellent.

Yes, Rosie. You are correct about the garage being several steps lower than the mudroom. We actually don't even park in the garage. It is small, and we fill it up quite quickly with our snow blower, lawn mower, bikes, stollers, wagon etc. So we don't need direct access from the garage to the house. It would be LOVELY to have a large enough garage to park in and enter the house on those blustery days, but not realistic for us.

Yes, I have decided that we will use drawers wherever we can, and have given up the idea of of a U shape. I think the L will work, just not sure how to make the island functional with seating for 3 or 4. Perhaps more of a square shape? Also thinking about buying new family room furniture, our sectional is only 4 years old, but my taste has changed and to be honest, with 3 kids under the age of 7 it has seen some heavy duty wear and tear!

I'll take another look tomorrow (Friday!)...

Thanks, Buehl!
FYI the "furniture" that is shown in her drawing on the left side is all negotiable as far as layout, etc. We are going to invest in some new pieces after the kitchen has been completed, so I do have some flexibility in moving the sofa away from the island several inches.

Also, would love some feedback as to whether I can fit a shallow pantry and /or beverage area along the wall between the door openings to the mudroom and formal living room.

Thank you in advance!

Sorry I did not get to this...I was ill all weekend...and this was a 3-day weekend :-(

I will try to look at it in the next couple of days....

westtoeast, I like the plan your friend emailed you but may I suggest a few tweaks? Maybe someone already noted this but I didn't read through all the comments so please excuse if I'm repeating what someone already mentioned.

You're not allowing enough overhang for seating. A 3' wide island means 24" cabs with 1.5" overhang and only a 10.5 overhang, not 15" as recommended for a 36" high counter. It looks like you have enough aisle clearance to expand the island those measly 4.5" and it would make sitting at the counter more comfortable for you and your guests.

If you shrink the island to 5'6" long, you'll be able to seat 3, not 4 at the island to allow 24" per person. Now if you curve the island overhang - give it a generous curve - to eek out 72" in that 66" span, then you can seat 4.

Love your inspiration photo! Gorgeous kitchen.

I'm a little late to this party so please forgive if this has been covered. Looking at your whole house plan I kind of feel like you have an entire area of your home that is hardly ever used. You mentioned the D/R that you love is only use on holidays and I"m wondering about the living room. The french doors close it off so I wonder if you that sits unused as well? If so, I might consider making the Living with the fireplace your family room and have the current family room incorporate more kitchen to achieve what you want and still have room to include storage and some seating for a kids playroom area.

Buehl- No worries, I hope you feel better soon!

Lisa_a- Thank you for the input! I will definitely expand the island. Can't decide if I like the curve or not. What if I extend the overhang and put one chair on the side (the slide that my sliding glass doors are on) and 3 at the end?

remodelfla- i would be very open to that. Just not sure how to go about it!

Remodelfla's suggestion to consider the function of the whole is an excellent one IF a major part of your home is sitting gathering dust most of the time.

The kitchen is such as center that, if your living room is neglected now, you might be able to fix that simply by switching the kitchen and sitting sides of that back room so the kitchen communicates with the living room. But, which wall(s) gets SOUTH SUN in your house? East? West? People are drawn to sunshine, so it's a major asset to use and/or problem to deal with when trying to make a room come to life.

Your willingness to reconfigure changes and expands your options tremendously. When I have time I want to try and come up with some very rough ideas.

rough rough rough idea as I don't have layout software

Could you incorporate pantry into mudroom?

So kind of you to take the time to do that, remodelfla! Food for thought. My biggest concern, I think would still be how i would have to walk all the way around the island in order to get out to the deck (via the sliding glass door).
Unfortunately, there is no space in the mudroom for a pantry.

So I haven't looked at the dimensions completely, but I like the track you were on with the square island. I think you would have room to build in a corner pantry and move the sink and fridge down. The pantry would be in the corner by the mud room. We have a similar kitchen design we have been working on and we will basically have a corner walk in pantry with the fridge next to it, 24" between the stove and fridge. You will be amazed at how little of space is needed out of the corner to get a good sized pantry. Also for the island you may want to consider doing 30" deep base cabinets with pullouts. You would be amazed at how much more you can store with that. You have plenty of room between the island and family room so you can squeeze the overhang accordingly. I hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I can post a drawing.

Here's the latest... thoughts?

Not sure why the pantry/bar area is not centered on the wall...it will be. Also, doorway into kitchen (from mudroom) doesn't show the 7.5" expansion, which will happen.
Furniture layout can change too.

westtoeast, you're making progress! It looks nice but I have a hard time providing more feedback than that without dimension information. How wide are your aisles, how long is your island, etc? If this isn't the type of help you want, then never mind. ;-)

Thanks Lisa_a, and yes, I DO want that kind of help, please!

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Numbers written in pen on the above layout are for the grainte guys...they refer to counter tops only.
So the aisle between the sink/fridge wall and Island is 48", but there is only 39" between the slider wall and island and 39" between entrance from mudroom and Island, so a little tight (but no appliances on either of those sides). There is more than 5 feet between island and sofa, but that is adjustable (we will be buying new sofas).

I know the other measurements are hard to make out, so:
-Total dimensions of room (kitchen and fam room combined) are 187 1/2" x 366"
-sink wall to kitchen entrance will be 76"
-doorway from mudroom to kitchen will be 47" (I say "will be because we are expanding the doorway by 7.5")
-wall between kitchen entry and family room entry is 134 1/4", we are planning to put the pantry and bar area there (18" deep by 72" wide, combined)
-From the sink wall to the sliding glass door is 112 1/2".

Right now, the island is 56"x72", so maybe I can shave a few inches off the length? I am trying to fit a microwave as well as two 18" bases (one for recycling, one set of 18" drawers). My KD put in a 27" space for a MW, could I fit one in a 24" space? We only use the MW for small items/ reheating. Maybe I can even do a space saver? I am not picky when it comes to the MW at all, and quite frankly I hate the look of most trim kits...I would be fine with just a shelf, I think. I think the other few inches on the island are for panels?
I would LOVE to fit at least 4 seats...
This is my new inspiration for the island:

{{!gwi}}

What do you think...can I fit something similar? Feel free to be honest, everyone. I can handle it and I am only doing this once! I want to get it right!

Thanks so much for all of the help!

Hi all,
soo...I'm back. I realize that my elevations above are probably too hard to read, so I drew them out to the best of my ability on graph paper. Each square is 6".
we are hoping to decide on our GC and place a cabinet order in the next few weeks, so I would love some feedback on the following layout...
{{!gwi}}

My scanner consistently cuts stuff off, so here is what's missing:
-the range wall up until the slider is 112.5"
-the sink wall is 187.25"
-I made an error on the wall with the step from the mudroom to kitchen...space between counter edge and the step (where it says 41") is actually 32.5".

Here are my questions:
Will I hate having a blind upper corner? I had the KD put in an easy reach originally, but it looks much better with the symmetry shown above (27" uppers on either side of range)...thoughts?

Another option I have is to slide the fridge down, next to the wall (with a 3" filler) and put a 14.5" stack of drawers between the dishwasher and fridge. A 15" pantry wouldn't have given me much in terms of storage, would the extra countertop space be better?

I know my aisles are a little tight between the sides of the Island, should I shorten the island to 69" by 56"? mine is similar in size and shape to shanghaimom's. FWIW, We will be using backless stools, that will (I hope) slide under the overhang when not in use.

I didn't have room to show the full bar/hutch area that will also house small pantry items if we get rid of the 15" pantry, ...basically 72" long but only 18" deep (optional 21" bump out in center). It will be similar to the pictures of it that I posted above, but no final design has been decided upon yet...open to suggestions.

ahhh...too many decisions. I am sure I am forgetting something, but if you have any feedback on this, I would greatly appreciate it!
thanks!
Stacey