You can check what the codes are by going to the Planning Dept in your City. If you don't have a permit for something, you most likely will be hit with a penalty when you decide to sell. When I moved into the house in 2000, the previous owner had extended 3 feet of space into the garage area for the fridgerator. He needed to correct this. Also, he had an electrical cord running beneath the tiles into the island which he had to remove. He also had renovations such as installing a new patio door which he had to pay a penalty to obtain the permit.
Each city is different.

Technically, the codes affect any part of the house you do work on, regardless of whether it's new or being remodeled. Beyond that, your question is essentially unanswerable. Codes are primarily meant to make your house safe, not just for you but for future occupants too. They are enforced by building inspectors, who do inspections of completed work. Of course, the inspector isn't knocking on doors regularly; he comes and does inspections as part of a process that's set in motion when you apply for a permit to do the work. It sounds as if you never got a permit, so no inspections. Your local government probably doesn't know that you're doing such work. This is common, but a violation of the law.

Basically you have two major issues to look at. First, is your house safe? This depends on the competence and trustworthiness of the people who did the work. Obviously, no one here can answer that question. Second, will you get in trouble when you sell your house? This depends on where you live and the local political situation. In some places there's no mechanism for the local inspector to ever learn that you did unauthorized work. Some inspectors will notice but not care unless something is obviously unsafe, and some will nail you to the wall. So many variables...

How important is Code? Very!!! (depending on where you are)

In So. Cal. a zillion things about making premanent improvements/changes or renovating a space require Code compliance via building permits and inspections. Your state/city/locale may not have similar requirements. Check with the Building department in your area. Building Code compliance is for your safety and protection (not, as thought by some, just ANOTHER source of additional tax revenue).

Homeowners here sometimes take shortcuts and circumvent the process to save money. (Building permits cost money and work done by licensed contractors may cost more than an unlicensed handy handyman's work.

In our end of So. Cal. you may have to provide permit numbers when selling a house if, for instance, you added a patio overhang that attaches to your house.

Additionally, if your house should burn down and the cause was from an non-permitted electrical upgrade for instance, it's unlikely your homeowner's insurance would pay the claim.

Be protected, get permits when they are needed.

All great points mentioned...

Would like to add just one more thing.
In some states like CA, at the time of sale, the homeowner will have to sign to fact whether work was done to the house under their ownership. So, one cannot really claim "ignorance". This is more to protect the new homeowner. If any mishap occurs while a new resident occupies it, the previous owner can get nailed for it, if the cause relates to the work done by the previous owner, especially without permits.

I've noticed this very often, even in our litigious society - folks "think" the permit process is expensive and cumbersome and avoid it like the plague - never understood it. It's like insurance, there to protect the current and future owner - at least to a certain extent... It is quite reassuring when an unbiased 3rd-party examines things, and indicates things are generally ok... no human inspection is perfect, but... more the better.

I can tell from experience - we added a window to a wall in out 50yr house - and so required plywood-based shear mitigation. When we opened the wall we saw that almost all 2x4s on two adjacent walls were termite-damaged - hollow 2x4s. The fix costed us unbudgeted $$... Inspection caught it ! It cost us engg time, permit time and $S... but after strapping those 2 walls down to the foundation, I feel a lot more safe in the earthquake CA country, with a cpl lil kids ;!). What is peace of mind worth ;?) Luckily for us, our 20% extra budgetting came to our rescue... We had to save for 10yrs before we could even dream of a remodel.

And in the grand scheme of things, the permit expense is miniscule... Never understood the logic where one would be willing to pay 10/15k for cabs for example, but hesitate to spend a 1~2k for permits ;!)

While some codes are idiotic, most codes are arrived at from past accidents and experiences - case and point - egress codes for bedroom windows necessitated by fire accidents...

/venkat

Where I am you cannot use a "handy man" to do plumbing or electric because they cannot pull the permit. It must be done by a licensed plumber or electrician, or the homeowner. Either way, there are inspections and you won't pass unless it passes code.

Codes help prevent fire (ie, grounded outlets, wires inside walls must have intact insulation), are for other safety reasons (GFI outlets prevent shock, distances between outlets to prevent the use of extension cords, height of stair railings), are for health reasons (venting of water and sewer pipes), and are for energy reasons (fluorescent light requirements in CA), etc.

How do you plan to add the outlet to the island later? Remove the counter? I would add it now, it doesn't cost much compared to the hassle later.

Will the house not being up to code cause a problem in the future? Probably. Most people have an inspection done when they buy. Things that are caught will have to be fixed. I would be more worried about the problem it could cause for you now. How do you know the work with done safely with no inspections, using someone unlicensed?

Most of the time there are state minimum codes and then some towns get more (but not less) stringent. For example, when we built railings had to be 36" high, the adjoining town has a 42" high requirement. But some things are very consistent between towns, like the required distance between outlets, the amperage of outlets, the number of GFI outlets and their locations, etc.

Since you haven't mentioned a building permit or inspection, and the work is being done by someone unlicensed, I would bet there will be numerous code violations. Personally, I take this seriously. My BIL is a licensed inspector and knows more about electrical than anyone I have ever met (he's worked in all trades, including plumbing, HVAC, finish work). He found numerous code violations when he checked out our electrical (done by someone licensed in 3 states). We fired the electrician. I know someone whose house burned down after a remodel and I didn't want that to happen to me.

I agree with Jon. And if your work was done properly, you probably needn't worry. If you decide to sell your house, you will only be penalized if the city inspectors are required to inspect your house. This could happen if a buyer insists on it (some might. Where I live, a buyer probably never would.) Or if you live in an area where the city actually requires such an inspection when a property changes hand (ours doesn't).

And suppose you did have such an inspection? You have an older house. Who is to say what work was done before you even bought it? Our 80 year old house is out of code from top to bottom (but is "safe" in all important respects). No inspector would know which work we did, and which work was done before we took possession of the house.

And ultimately, if you are penalized, well, it is only money. And not that much money. Not to sound flip about money (we don't have much of it!). But we'd still come out ahead if we ever had to pay any penalties compared to the cost of doing everything "by the book." (This wouldn't be the case if our house burned down from an electrical fire, and was uncovered by insurance. But the chances of that happening to us are nil.)

So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I would just suggest that you be aware of the local codes, and make sure you comply with everything that you can comply with (primarily where safety is concerned). For example, only use the appropriate type of pipe for a new gas line, but if you can't install outlets according to code b/c it wrecks your kitchen design, then don't install them.

:-)

Francy

As already said the codes are for safety but also in some cases energy efficiency. One of the major problems I have seen at least in California is when you go to sell your home. If the work required a permit and one was not obtained at the time then that must be disclosed. Typically lenders will require that the work be permitted and home inspectors will often pick up on this immediately. Work that may have been done to code 10 years previously may not be to todays code. Had it been permitted at that time it is not a problem, but now to get a permit the work would need to meet current code. This can be fairly simple or be really messy. Inspectors can also require that the work be completely torn out. Not all work requires a permit however it would be wise to check first. Since this is a kitchen forum for example in my area one does not need a permit to simply tear out and replace cabinets and counter tops. That will change if there are structural changes being made for instance. Even if a permit is not required the work should at least meet the codes for safety purposes. The legal issues of this could be huge. Personally I have found the local building department to very helpful in answering such questions for homeowners. Much of the information can also be found online in most areas nowdays.

We live in California, and we have both bought, and sold homes here (and have done work on them without permits--all work done to code to the extent that we could while maintaining historical preservation). Our homes were out of compliance when we bought them, and out of compliance when we sold them. We've had no problems.

We did lots of work on the kitchen in our previous 100 yr old home. When it came time to sell, we stated in the disclosure that we did this work, and that we did not obtain any permits. The buyers had a private (not city) inspector come in. He saw that pretty much everything was done to code (not everything--we didn't install cf-only lighting fixtures), and said "good job!." And that was the end of it.

There are just so many variables involved, that it is hard to answer your initial question.

When you research your own city rules, I would suggest doing so online, rather than by phone. That is, anonymously.

:-)

Francy

A lot depends on your local building dept. Ours is not very helpful, nor is the one in my brothers town next to ours. Some on this forum have very helpful building depts and inspectors. Around here they will almost NEVER say you don't need a permit, even when local licensed contractors say you don't not. Ask and you will get vague answers like "well, we recommend you always get a permit", which I found means no, you don't HAVE to get one for that. They will tell you if one is required, though. So I guess if you want to know if it is required and if you learn how to interpret the vague answers, you will figure it out like I did. Around here, you can call and ask what the code is for a particular project and they will likely refuse to tell you, and tell you to call a contractor and if you don't already know, you shouldn't be doing the work. That happened to my brother, he was building a deck and called to ask about spacing of the rails on the deck fence and they refused to tell him, then failed him for inspection, and would only tell him then why it did not meet code and he had to tear it out and redo it, and then have it reinspected. Many permits are pulled around here and the work never inspected. How does that increase safety? The always inspect additions, decks and roofs, for example, but not much else, esp if you tell them a licenced contractor is doing it. So they assume the contractor will do it right, and if he doesn't, you won't know UNLESS your house burns down.

Other people have very forthright and helpful building depts and inspectors, and if I lived in a town like that, I would definitely use them. You might consider having an electrician come out and give you an estimate on what it would take to bring everything up to code. He could tell you what if anything if a safety issue, what doesn't meet code and what it would cost to make any needed changes. Then you could just address any issues that were safety related, and put less important stuff on your "to do" list to take care of as you have the time and money to put into it. That way, you also wouldn't be blowing the whistle on yourself, so to speak.

Sue

About your island. I don't know where you live and what applies there, but here where I live the Code requires that......

An island above a certain size HAS TO HAVE an electrical outlet on it. Here's one reason why.

Everybody knows how handy extra counter space is and what a neato place an island is to set that crockpot and let it cook dinner for several hours -- it is attached to an extension cord draped across the aisle and plugged into a sink-wall outlet. Nobody will run into that draped cord...yeh, sure.

I think an island without inadequate outlets is especially dangerous. It's only a matter of time before chords are strung over adjacent walkways and someone pulls a hot appliance off.

In a buyers market, you are likely to get a buyer like my son, whose close took months because he kept insisting they fix everything his very good inspector found. I think the seller really wished they had done it right the first time.

To be really harsh, I suspect houses built outside the rules cost us all in extra fire and health service costs. If a person can't afford to do the basics right, perhaps they should wait and save up until they can. This might not apply to the original poster, I don't know.

If you don't have a permit for something, you most likely will be hit with a penalty when you decide to sell.

That is heavily dependent upon where you are. I have no idea how such a penalty would be assessed; DH and I bought a house that was built in 1922 and sold one built in 1945. In neither case did any question about codes come up, either on work done by us or work done by former owners, and both sales involved inspections. (Not inspections by the city, but by inspectors hired by the buyers in each case.) I have bought and sold two houses before these transactions, and no one ever asked about permits. There are no "permit police" looking over house sales, looking for infractions.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. But I've never known anyone who's gotten into that kind of bind.

Given that you stated, "I have no idea what the codes are and no idea if we are even close to compliance", and you did much of the work yourselves, I am going to go out on a very SHORT limb here, and assume that you are out of compliance in lots of areas.

My DH who was looking over my shoulder, said to tell you that building/electrical/plumbing, etc. codes are just the MINIMUM standard you should follow. MINIMUM!!! Did I mention that those standards are the MINIMUM? We are renovating our whole home, two kitchens, three bathrooms, five bedrooms, etc. etc.... We are doing most of the work ourselves, and I am the GC. Luckily, my DH is an electrical engineer and perhaps the most capable and educated person I know. I went to our local library and took out the Electrical code book for our province (I would assume each US State also has one). That information is invaluable and there for your protection. It is NOT Them against US.

As happened to Venkatbo, we needed to get a building permit several years ago just to extend our deck. (At the time, we were pissed, cuz one of our neighbours 'turned us in', that really annoyed us) IN this case, we were ignorant, we really didn't know that we needed a permit- but the municipality was great- the inspector came to our door, told us what we had to do, and so we did it. (No penalty) In the process, we had to get our septic tank inspected (what has that got to do with our deck- we wondered?) It was a HUGE deal for DH to dig down several feet and expose the entire tank- but thank God he did! The concrete holding up the manhole had cracked and was in the process of falling into the tank- there had been some sort of lackadaisical repair job attempted with a wooden plank???

Anyhow, turns out there is a reason the municipality wants an older home inspected when a building permit is applied for- it is their way to help ensure that updated building codes get applied. It may seem like a nuisance and an unnecessary expense, but as stated before, if God forbid, you should ever have a fire, your insurance will not cover you, if they discover you have done electrical work without an inspection.

I would suggest, at the very minimum, that you get ahold of your state's electrical code book (you should be able to find it at a library), and go over the work you have done. If you feel you have done everything up to code (once you have educated yourselves as to what code is), then it's up to you whether or not you decide to apply for the proper permits. Wouldn't you be able to sleep better knowing that you were safe?

Where I live now, the city does its inspection within 1 business day of application. In my previous city it would take over a month, so you can imagine permits weren't as popular there. And to make it even better, the inspectors kept an eye out on their runs and if they saw anything suspicious (like a dumpster with no permit prominently displayed in a window), they'd check up on you.

So, yeah, permits can be a pain and I understand skipping those for smaller things. But code is pretty important so try to stick to it, especially for safety issues.

I am supposed to get a permit to change out a light fixture or faucet in my current location. I don't care if the inspection is instantaneous. I'm not getting a permit for that.

Well I am not very worried even with the harsh criticisms. I know what we did and unlike so many posters here our "remodel" was very much cosmetic. We didnÂt tear anything down or add anything on. We moved appliances, we put in new floors, new cabinets, new countertops, and rock veneered over a fireplace along with countless small cosmetic things. If permits are required to install cabinets or a new stove then perhaps we are in the wrong but otherwise I can't imagine what we would have even gotten a permit for. I don't think our area; a suburb of Atlanta, GA is that stringent. We live in an unincorporated part of the county-not sure if that matters, but we have a lot fewer restrictions on most everything than "in the city". We hired an independent inspector before buying our 40 year old home, but it isn't required. I searched the internet for hours looking for building codes but I found pretty much nothing that applied to us (and I am an excellent internet researcher if I do say so myself). We didn't add any electric but we moved electric and plumbing for the dishwasher and range (just a few inches each). My husband is quite handy-I just donÂt see the need to hire out what you can do yourself. I would never dream of putting an appliance on my island and letting a cord hang across (I have little children and I am a klutz for gosh sakes) but I guess some people would. We are finished by the way so in a way it is a moot point but I do appreciate the comments. My question was more out of curiosity than concern but thank you again for your frank responses.

Speaking of code--since I don't want to start up a new thread--we were just told by the business from where we are purchasing our windows, that we have to increase the size of our windows, if we replace them, because code is now 4" wider than when our house was built. This doesn't sound right to me. I could see that it would apply to new construction (like an addition), but we are just upgrading our 35 year old windows. We live in NJ.

We sold our home in CA last year. We did remodel over the years and obtained permits for everything, but even so by the time we sold the house, the stair railing width was no longer up to code. (We had upgraded it and brought it up to code 8 years earlier). The state allows certain items to be 'grandfathered' in, which is what happened with our stair railings!

Alisonn, Check with the building department on whether your window sizes would have to be changed and if you'll need permits and inspections. That will be more authoritative an answer than anyone else can give you. Replacing the glass, and probably even "restoring" the frames, should be allowable. It may be that if you're putting in new casings and frames it's considered enough of a new construction to require that you bring it up to current code. But it may not.

One other thing with "code"--which probably isn't likely to happen with kitchen, but anyway--where I live (Sacramento) if you DON"T get a permit, and the permitting police find out, they can come in and make you REMOVE all the unpermitted work. This happened to someone I know who built a porch, had a dispute with a neighbor (who had watched it being built), the neighbor out of spite reported her, and she got a notice to tear it down or they would come in and tear it down for her. Very costly.
Carla in Sac