tashamh2

Small Kitchen Layout Help

Tasha Harris
8 years ago

I thankfully stumbled upon this site at the beginning of my kitchen remodel. What a magnificent source of great information! I need some layout suggestions for my tiny kitchen (10 x 10). I hate the current footprint but do not know what to do with the wall that is adjacent to the door leading to the back porch where the refrigerator now sits. I'm converting the back porch into a laundry room and the door will be removed, leaving an archway. I need suggestions for where to place the appliances and how to layout the cabinets near the walkway area. I'm concerned that if I put cabinets on both sides of the doorway, I will be left with a narrow path to the laundry room.

The other side of kitchen:

Comments (62)

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    A pocket door is a great space saver, but you only need a door if you'd use it. While it helps with heating costs (in case DC gets another winter like the last few), if you would always leave it open for light, and the view is uncluttered, you wouldn't need one.

    One issue that many people (including me) think can be a problem is a range sitting alone. Draining pasta requires you to cross the whole kitchen, including a traffic path in this case.

    It might work if you had room and funds to put a prep sink on the range side.

    Remember, the normal flow of cooking is range & pantry> sink > prep surface > range. So just keep that in mind as you plan.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    tashamh2 can you post the layout/dimensions of the whole foundation?
    I cannot figure out the views from the LR.
    I cannot figure out the stairs, powder room, closet, etc.

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  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I was thinking along the lines of what your KD proposed but I didn't have the fridge wall cabs extend as far to avoid crowding the laundry room door.

    I've played and played with your lay-out and each idea has issues. For instance, I reduced the opening into the kitchen and moved the fridge to the new longer wall against the powder room. Round the 36" corner Susan from it was the sink, then DW, then a blind corner cabinet, then the range, then a narrow cab. Not great. Open DW door blocks the range. And very little counter space.

    I have a possibly radical - and possibly too expensive for you to do but here it is anyway - idea. Would it be possible to remove the wall between kitchen and laundry room, move the kitchen into that space and either create a new laundry room next to the powder room or create a laundry space within the kitchen? That would eliminate a doorway and would free up more options for your space.

    Don't knock the last possibility. It is done in small homes quite often. Here's one done by Amoroso Designs, San Francisco for her own home.

    Doors closed:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cow-hollow-residence-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~43687)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco interior designer Amoroso Design

    Doors open:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cow-hollow-residence-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~43688)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco interior designer Amoroso Design

    Here's a long view of the space, which as you can see, is narrow like yours.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cow-hollow-residence-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~43683)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco interior designer Amoroso Design

    I'm also curious to see your first floor.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I am super appreciative for the help you all are providing me. After finding this forum, I no longer feel like a lone soldier. Thank you!

    I've toyed with the idea of knocking down the back wall and extending the kitchen onto the back porch. But if I stay within budget, I could use the savings to build an extra bathroom upstairs. Only 1 bathroom in the house, which is a pain when my family visits from out of town...and I'm hosting X-Mas next year. So, that's why I'm sorta tied to the existing footprint.

    Here's a rough draft of the first floor layout. It goes Front Door -> Living Room -> Dining Room -> Kitchen -> Back Door.

    Here's a view of the first floor from the front door:

    This is the living room:

    Dining Room:

    Stairs leading to the 2nd floor:

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Looking at your first picture, do you see what I mean about the need to shorten that perspective to the back door? I don't think it requires seriously closing off the kitchen, just visual cues that give your eyes a place to stop and give the dining room more of a sense of place and presence.

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Sorry to double post but I've changed my mind. Rather than deal with the other passageway, I'd shrink the opening from the DR to the hall where the powder room is. Case it out to match the other door in the DR. As before, it doesn't really need to be a lot smaller an opening, just something to increase the psychological separation. The continuity of (uneven) ceiling isn't doing you any favors, either, so a lower opening would help there. And if possible, lose or shorten that jog of the wall between the powder room and kitchen, unless it's structural.

    Now you can make that hallway across from the powder room into a "butler's pantry" with all sorts of storage.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hi Marcolo,

    Can you provide a little sketch? I'm having a hard time picturing what you have in mind. The area between the dining room and kitchen used to be all walled up with 2 doors - one door leading to the kitchen and the other door to a hallway leading to the basement stairs. I'll try to find old pictures of that layout.

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I can't entirely understand your space from your plan and photos, but gut reaction, this is what I would do.

    Add casing at the passage between DR and the back of your space. I'd suspect this was here originally, or something like it.

    It's still quite a big opening. No traffic jams or claustrophobia. Just space definition.

    Then use the hallway opposite the bath door as a "butler's pantry" with a wall of built-ins. For the main kitchen, go with your KD's plan, more or less.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I'll assume the powder room is already there and it's staying.
    (I wasn't sure because you mentioned stairs at some point...)
    With the new photos I have seen the stairs are not the powder room.
    In the diagram posted Sunday you showed a lot.
    The new boxy diagram showing the three main areas is great.
    Based on what I think I know now, here is a whole-house approach.

    1st). your kitchen opening is about 6 feet wide, wide enough to have both an aisle/passageway AND a slim counter on the long visible wall.

    2nd). the width of your kitchen is about 10.5 feet wide, wide enough to let the kitchen have a long thin island. Yes, everything will be tight or custom-made to be smaller than average, but it all fits.

    Thus, the approach is
    * to have the kitchen's long continuing wall be "furnished".
    * to island-ize the remaining area.

    More details:
    The long wall of 252 inches crosses many areas. At both ends it has to deal with doors (which cannot be moved unless you plan very well and spend well too); You could consider this wall as the go-to place for pretty much anything new + unique, and for a series of new "defined spaces". I would make most of that wall a series of built-in / fitted cabinets and most of them would be light airy open (some glass, and a mirror or two also); not deep heavy massive, and not much overhead in most areas. They would have electrical outlets and lighting inside, with some backlit panels too. This makes it seem to have more depth-of-field which is ideal in a long thin space. The mirror (or two) is to help light travel through the space during the day as the sun moves across the sky. The mirror (or two) may also give one a cute new angled side view into the kitchen or out of the kitchen, but that is secondary and not the thing to optimize or focus on. The long wall series would help define the powder room's transition space too. Right at the 6 foot opening, this long wall's furnishings would be narrow slim thin light (not a typical kitchen counter of typical depth). Thus the six foot opening appears large still. B.t.w. your 53" wall and the 73" opening are not drawn to scale in your diagram.

    If you like this so far, please first draw the whole-house idea out before getting into the subsequent planning of the kitchen triangle.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Oh Marcolo, that is so great!!!! I can keep the coat closet and build out the pantry area. I see where you are going. I love it!!!!

    Davidro1 - I have a hard time envisioning what you have in mind. I'm terrible with geometry and word puzzles. Can you draw it out? Nothing fancy.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Can you move the door to the laundry room, centering it on the back wall? If so, then how about this idea?

    I basically created a galley kitchen, which gives you longer runs on each side and no pesky corner cabinets. I adopted marcolo's suggestion of an archway between DR and kitchen area ala the same treatment you have elsewhere (great idea, marcolo) to help define the space.

    You could also leave it open and make the end hutch a beautiful stand alone type piece with a glass-fronted cab that sits on the counter. That would provide a pretty view from DR and front door. Kind of like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/no-2-traditional-kitchen-san-diego-phvw-vp~89791)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san diego kitchen and bath Tina Kuhlmann

    The clean-up sink and DW are close to the DR. Non-cooks can access the fridge without crossing into the cook's path, especially since I added a prep sink to that side of the run. You don't have to do this but it does make it easier and safer to dump a pot of water. Speaking of prep sink, I wanted to put this under the window but that would have meant even less counter between sink and range. You wrote that you can't move a window but can you enlarge it?

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    lisa, on your plan, is it possible or worthwhile to L-wrap the counter on the bottom wall for added prep space and greater distance to the prep sink?

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    tashamh2,

    Read it another day. Like anyone you will get more later, when you re-read a big post on another day. This is how to "get it" in any field, reading anything that is dense, contains a lot of information. No rush/ Not urgent/ Not an emergency.

    If someone wishes to draw things on paper and post it, they may do so. My thoughts are out there for all to read.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Good suggestion, marcolo. Here it is:

    This gives 43.5" of counter between corner and range (subtracted 1.5" counter overhang), which is a wonderful amount of space to work. It does mean no individual trash cab but that's not a big deal, IMO. Trash can go under the sink.

    tashamh2, I forgot to add in my earlier post that I allowed for a 36" wide fridge. This lay-out gives you room to do that and since I recommend a CD fridge, you will likely want a 36" wide one because the shallower depth means less capacity. However, if you opt for a narrower fridge - there are narrower CD fridges, just not brands you're likely to be familiar with - you can increase the pantry or shift the DW, sink, etc to the left.

    davidro1, I don't see how a long slim island can fit in tashamh2's space. If the fridge sits 29" deep (depth of my CD fridge, inc box, door, 1" air space behind but excluding handles) and the range, like most ranges these days, sits deeper than standard counters, let's say it's 27" deep, that leaves only 72" between runs. How on earth would you fit an island into that space?

    I tried laying out a perimeter run on the window wall and a peninsula run connected to the laundry room wall with a 36" aisle between fridge door and peninsula and 42.5" aisle between peninsula and wall (that's the width of the laundry room doorway). That leaves room for only a 20.5" wide peninsula, which means 18" deep cabs, which means no sink or DW in that run so all appliances would have to go on the window wall. That just won't work: it would be fridge (calculated 33" for cab and narrower fridge), 24" DW, 30" sink cab, 30" range - and no counter to spare between sink and range and range and wall. You could swap sink and DW but that means no elbow room between sink and fridge and it does nothing to fix the lack of counter to the right of the range. Either way, I don't see how this is a good set-up at all.

    tashamh2, I also have a hard time understanding what davidro1 is trying to relay in his posts. Doesn't matter how many times I go back to re-read them, I'm still confused so don't feel bad if you're in the same boat as me.

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I love it! It even works if tash can't quite center the LR door.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lisa_a - I LOVE IT!!!! LOVE IT!!! Oh, you don't know how happy you and Marcolo just made me. Today must be my lucky day because I just left a KD place that carries a cabinet line that was recommended on this site - Starmark. I loved the cabinets and the KDr agreed to provide preliminary pricing for the cabinets for free. Otherwise, I would have to pay $1800 just to be told I can't afford the cabinets (another nugget of info I gathered from GW). I'm also hitting the Great Indoors (another GW recommendation) this weekend to look at cabinets. I am absolutely thrilled about the progress WE are making with my kitchen renovation. I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way. Thank you so much!

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Good news so far. Don't let me stop you or hurt your feelings if you have already decided to implement the large footprint option that has been laid out in this thread.

    I'd put a fridge where lisa_a drew the sink, on the powder room wall. (I did mention this in my first post, but I know I know it's more reasonable to ask for a drawing. We all contribute as we can.) A French door fridge because its doors are half the width. The 85" wall against the laundry room is a great spot for an exhaust hood and a range. Much depends. It all has to be explored. All options.

    Assuming the room is 128 inches across, this space can be divided as follows: 23.5" counter on the window wall (above 21.5" Ikea cabinet depth, all drawers), 36" aisle, 18" floating island (wheels with brakes), 40" aisle/corridor_to_laundry, and the remainder for the long wall. The stuff to build for the long wall is small, light and airy. Not bulky like a fridge or anything designed to hide a fridge. The only way to hide the fridge is to put in on the powder room wall. In a small house it often is the thing to do. Rule 1: hide the fridge.

    The idea expressed here is designed to contain the kitchen inside a smaller footprint and to turn the remainder space (corridor to the back door) Into Some Other Nice Space, not just a run of cabinets in a working kitchen. In the long run, when sitting in the LR, it will be more beautiful than a view onto working cabinets. Don't let me stop you or hurt your feelings if you have already decided to implement the large footprint option that has been laid out above in the preceding hours. If you don't want to look this idea, move on to the next post. I really hope this idea gets explored before it gets rejected. It will fit. It will appear to be tight by many of the current participants of the forum. Your space is very different from the normal GW house.

    Hth.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Yay! So glad marcolo and I could help you find a workable plan. It's going to be so much more functional than what you have now. And wonderful news about your cab shopping.

    Don't be surprised if you have to make a few tweaks depending on cab specifications. But none of them should be deal breakers (at least I hope not).

    Keep us posted and definitely post your kitchen reveal.

  • rosie
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    It is a good workable plan.

    Not to change your mind in any way since you are so happy, but just to acknowledge Davidrol's input: I was also wondering about fitting everything to the left to create a good view from the LRM/DRM back there, echoing the elegant simplicity of the view the other direction from the kitchen across the LRM/DRM.

    This way you will be able to relate to people out in the other rooms, though, instead of being hidden away. A big, big plus for most of us.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    okay, so I just received a layout from another KD. I'm in love with Lisa_a and Marcolo's layout but might have to forgo adding another bathroom upstairs if I implement it with a semi-custom cabinet line. This KD proposes extending the 53.5 wall near the powder room to accommodate this U-shaped design and leaving the 252 wall empty. What do you think?

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    davidro1, I really wish you would take the time to draw out what you mean. A visual is so helpful. I can not get the math to work out for what I understand to be your ideas.

    Question: if the window wall counter is only 23.5" deep, how do you fit a DW under the counter? I'm assuming from the way the numbers work, the sink and DW is on window wall but that would mean the DW would stick out beyond the cab front and counter edge. I must be missing something because that makes no sense to me.

    FYI, I did draw up but not post a plan that is a U running from powder room wall to laundry room wall with fridge against the PR (with reduced opening to kitchen) and range against the LR. I posted the measurements in an above post. It would be:
    PR wall - fridge, 9" pull-out cab, 36" corner cab
    window wall - 36" corner cab, 30" sink cab, 24" DW, 2" cab spacer
    LR wall - 18" BCC, 30" range, 10" cab

    There's no room for an island between range and fridge. Deduct the depth of a range (est. 27") and fridge (29", assuming CD fridge similar to mine) and you get 72", which is needed for aisles.

    If you mean for the fridge to be on the window wall, not the powder room wall, you end up with no elbow room between sink and fridge (and a narrower fridge, too, or it won't clear the window). You do get 43" of counter between sink and range (24.5" on window wall, 18.5" on range wall) but IMO, that doesn't make up for the loss of room between sink and fridge. If you swap sink and DW, then no one can be at the sink when the oven door is open. But it's also problematic to leave the DW there - open DW door and range door would collide. The island would be 18" deep x 29" long with 36" between PR wall, range and window wall cabs.

    This isn't my kitchen but if it were, I'd rather get a glimpse of a fridge from the front door or other parts of the front rooms than compromise so much on counter space and storage.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    We cross-posted tashamh2. The design the KD came up with is a reverse of what I just spelled out above. Same issues, IMO, but given your budget constraints, this isn't a bad plan overall.

    How high are your ceilings? 9'? That's what we have. I love the look of stacked cabs and hate dusting the open soffit above my current 42" high cabs. However, I was told by every kitchen pro I spoke with that stacked cabs add a big cost to the project. We're opting to go with 45" uppers and simple, stacked molding to the ceiling, which is saving us money. Not sure if this is an option for you but worth asking about.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Looking at the plan again....

    Not sure the plan accurately shows the sink/window relationship. If you only have 37" between window and PR wall and you have a DW, a 2" spacer and a BCC between sink and PR wall, the sink cab will be 50" in from the corner. So about 13" of the sink cab will be under the window and the rest outside the window. Are you moving the window after all? If not, I think that wouldn't look right, nor will you get the upper cab storage the plan shows.

    Am I missing something here?

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Lisa,

    How would you design the kitchen if I moved the back door to the middle of the wall but stopped the cabinetry on the 252 wall at 117 inches? Where would you put the appliances? Would you keep the extra lip of the 53.5 wall (the 17 inches that is adjacent to the powder room).

    I'm thinking that I could do this layout in stages in order to stay within my budget:

    Stage 1 (next year): Center back door and build out cabinetry short of powder room.

    Stage 2 (Yr2015): Add arch to separate out dining room and add butler pantry/hutch to wall opposite of powder room.

    Thank you!

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Oops, I meant to say would you make any changes to the layout you created if you were doing it in stages?

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hmmm, let me think about this a bit.

    As for removing the 17" section of wall, removing it would allow you to adjust the entry arch between DR and kitchen to the left, which would help hide more of the fridge/sink wall from the front door. That's a plus. But it would be an extra expense. Since it will affect your floor - you'll need to patch where the wall was - it's best you do this when you do the initial work and floor replacement/repair.

    You should start a new thread asking people for their tips for breaking down kitchen remodels into manageable budget bites (point them to this thread so they know what you're working with). I'm sure you'll get lots of great suggestions. There are some incredibly resourceful folks here.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Agh. I read this as resistance: "I'd rather get a glimpse of a fridge from the front door or other parts of the front rooms than compromise..."

    Now is the time to explore. Later is the time to use judgment, to cull options, to delete, to deselect. Too many detailed questions. But, I'll answer one detail now: DW only need 22" depth. Bosch. Miele. Maybe Asko too.

    If a range needs 27"depth then a wall oven will be better. I have one 22" depth. I sunk it into a recess in the wall and it enabled me to have a 9" countertop in front of it. This makes the oven look like luxury. It's the right height, it's recessed and I have a counter in front of it. When the oven door is open this counter is useful. There are still many finetuning possibilities here. If one had only 0.0005% of normal human vision, one would see gross outlines of areas only. This is the stage of the development process right now. Later we finetune down to the fraction of an inch. I am good at planning tight spaces so I know that there are two steps, the first one being the half-blind space outline, the second one being the millimeter counting. Worry not if an inch or two may be missing here or there. Later, later, later, there will be time, for decisions against, or for decisions to keep tuning the grid. For all we know, it may be possible to grab space from the laundry room for a wall oven recess. I also noticed that the exterior walls are very thick in this house. This leads to a lot of options. There is hope. I will admit that my calling it a "long" island was a poor choice of term. It might be under 4 ft long. Wait and see. If you do draw something, it will need finetuning and that is normal and expectable; it won't be more than an area placement guide. Thank you for listening.

    p.s
    maybe a CD fridge will be best too. That is part of the finetuning step. I wrote the opposite, in a previous post, but now I may change my mind tomorrow... and I will feel I've done everything in suitable order because it goes like this: big things first, details later. The fridge is hidden when on the powder room wall. That is "it", that is all, that is the thing to know for now.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Great suggestion, Lisa_a. Thank you again for all of your help. I see the light at the end of the design tunnel.

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Removing the little wall by the powder room eliminates the L & a lot of prep space in lisa's design.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    You're making assumptions, David. All I'm doing is trying to understand your ideas so that I could draw them up, as you suggested, for Tasha. Unfortunately, you leave out key details, such as brands that produce shallower DWs (all high end) or gaining inches by creating niches in the LR wall (structural changes add cost). If you want to draw up "gross outlines of areas only", go for it. But that's not how I work.

    Good point, marcolo. On second thought, tasha, don't remove the wall - it's an extra cost and you lose prep space.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Tasha, had another thought about how you can find information about breaking a plan down into manageable budget bites. Ask a contractor. When you interview prospective contractors, ask them how they could break down your plan and what order makes the most sense. You may find out that making all structural changes at once saves you the most money and there are other items that are easier, less costly to delay until later.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    tashamh2,

    Think about the workflow first. Storage falls into place after that.

    Sooner or later you or someone has to measure everything out very carefully produce a drawing exactly to scale. Your sketches are adequate for gross planning but I fear now is the time to get a nice nice drawing posted onto your thread. The two sketches you have produced are not to scale. They were good to show general areas, but now some ideas need to have clear dimensions.

    Giving the horizontal and vertical axes a numbering pattern to identify each square foot can help you me and anyone else. People can comment without being vague about where they would put something.

    A few months ago a similar challenge happened on another thread. The OP posted "I'm going to post a blank layout with 1 foot grids and all the current doors, windows and dimensions--I'm rechecking all my measurements now because I was off ..." and this helped everyone. Then she put numbers and letters on rows and columns. In your kitchen this would be A to L across the page, and 1 to 22 down the page (the long wall).

    Here is a link that might be useful: thread where numbering the square feet produced a good result.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Thank you, Davidro1. I will look at that post.

  • rosie
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I think you've moved on, to the other thread, but this plan could really use about 3-1/2 inches borrowed from the depth of a presumably standard wall behind it to recess it into. If there's not a big plumbing issue involved, it would be a small job with a great big benefit.

    In any case, do consider the depth of your interior walls as potential available space.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    the window shows that the exterior walls are very thick.
    tashamh2 when was this house built? What else do you know about the building?

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Yes, that is correct, Davidro1, the exterior walls are thick layers of brick. My house was built in 1906. It's your standard DC rowhouse.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    It's standard because you are there and you know what standard means; it still needs to be defined to set the knowledge base at the same level. E.g. without any basement, or with partially sunk, partially finished basement, or... Etc. What is under the floor, how the floor was made, etc...

    Thick layers of brick = to some this means the brick holds it up. To others it means there is a wood structure and the brick is an exterior cladding, thicker than an average brick cladding. So go ahead and describe it. Don't feel shy, don't worry about the parts you don't know. Someone else will fill you in.

    In a small space, detailed knowledge of the structure is important, to enable options and to avoid engaging in "pipe dreams". Since it's a narrow footprint house it really it is important information, in terms of remodeling options. Ask around and see what your neighbors can help you figure out; it's good to get real people involved and telling you stuff you need to know. Internet helpers live in different cities and have other kinds of knowledge.

    Hth

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    wow, in your "budget two phase" thread you posted the same minute as i did and you answered my question: there is a basement. You wrote you are interested in aesthetics, and that is good to know because it's not clear from the photos and posts above.

    Here is a link that might be useful: your Budget Conscious query

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Yes, Davidro1, it took me some time to feel comfortable enough to admit that I'm a shallow City girl that prefers beauty over function. :-)

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Across the page left to right is 128 inches across.
    This space can be divided into two counters, two aisles, and a buffet counter on the long wall.
    24" countertop under the window;
    35" aisle, for the inner sanctum of the kitchen;
    19" countertop on floating island (e.g. on casters, wheels with brakes);
    39" aisle / corridor to laundry porch;
    11" countertop of a beautiful built in, that you can afford a year after you renovate.

    This is a plan to get a well functioning kitchen, which is both beauty and function, and get sculptural beauty on the most exposed wall.

    Each of the three counters extends / overhangs a little bit so the real space for legs in each aisle is greater than 35" and 39". E.g. under the 24" countertop are Ikea cabinets (21.5") and standard Ikea Blum Tandembox drawers.

    Hth

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    David, so you're still suggesting that Tasha go with shallower cabs than standard for the perimeter counter. Does Ikea offer a sink that will fit inside a 21.5" deep cab? I'm assuming the cabs will be pulled 1" forward from the wall to create a 24" deep counter. Or are you intending the counter overhang to be 2.5" not the standard 1.5"?

    As for the 11" counter top on the opposite wall, those cabs will need to be 9.5" deep to accommodate an 11" counter with standard counter overhang. Does Ikea offer cabs this shallow? Or are you suggesting that this be custom built?

    tasha, 35" may be doable even though it is less than NKBA recs for aisles for a one-cook kitchen (42"). Do a mock-up with cardboard boxes or whatever you can get your hands on to make sure this width is functional for you. You will definitely have some pinch points with the island placed as David suggests (see my drawing below). Yes, it is movable but how often will you have to move it in order to move about your kitchen? Definitely do a mock-up. Make sure you have hip room as well as foot room.

    In the meantime, here's my interpretation of David's suggestion, as best as I can understand it:

    Plan D (D as in David)

    I drew this up with a right hand door swing fridge, single door, 33" wide, 29" deep (possibly this Samsung). You can't do this plan with anything but a right hand door swing on a free-standing fridge, not if you want to be able to open the door wide enough to pull out fridge and freezer drawers.

    I spot a few issues right off the bat:

    Tight clearances between free-standing, CD fridge to island. The 35" aisle shrinks to 30". If the island isn't placed as shown, you'll need to watch that you don't hit the island when you open the fridge door.

    There's still no elbow room to the left of the sink.

    You need a shallower model of DW. David mentioned 2 brands above - Bosch and Miele. These aren't budget brands.

    An open DW door will collide with an open range door.

    Limited base storage (I made an executive decision to make the range wall cabs standard 24" deep). The range can also be a cook top with wall oven below but even then, the oven handles will protrude into the aisles a bit (this depends on the model you choose). I estimated the depth at 26". If your range is even deeper, you lose even more aisle room - or you'll need to shift the island more regularly to work.

    Tiny island with limited storage and no electrical outlets (needs to be a fixed island for that), which limits its usage, IMO.

    You'll also need to go with a sink that is shallower front to back or possibly off-set the faucet or do a wall-mounted faucet or else you might end up with a faucet wedgie (read what Kelly Morisseau, CMKBD and blogger at Kelly's Kitchen Sync has to say about faucet placement in her post, Faucet Tip #1)

    A solution to one of the above concerns is to go with a built-in fridge, which will gain you a few inches of aisle space. There are 24", 27" and 30" wide models, which would help you gain a wee bit more elbow room between fridge and sink. But you give up capacity. And they cost more money. For instance, the 24" wide Liebherr has a capacity of only 10 cu. ft and it costs $4299 at the above source. Is 10 cu. ft. enough space for you? (It wouldn't be for me. My KA CD fridge is twice the size and was less than half the price but it's also about 4" deeper and 12" wider so it wouldn't work in this situation).

    In addition to the above, you could also ditch the rolling island and opt for a fixed peninsula against the powder room wall (you'd need to extend the powder room wall to do this). You'd gain a longer stretch of counter (56"), you could add outlets, making it more functional, and you'd gain storage, which you could definitely use while you wait for Phase II. However, any time someone wants something from the fridge, they will need to pass the range. With the tight aisle clearances, this could be a real nuisance while you're cooking.

    I understand the reason for such a proposed plan - to create a pleasing view from the front door and front rooms - but there might be another way to address this. Add a door at the proposed arch between DR and kitchen/PR area. Make it a pocket door so it disappears from view when not needed. If you can break into the powder room/DR wall to add a pocket door there, you could even have a dual pocket door to create a 48" wide opening. Like this:

    {{gwi:1985727}}

    It requires more structural work but as marcolo and others have pointed out, that might not be as expensive as you think. And adding this means that you won't need to stretch your appliance budget as much.

  • lisa_a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    You'll need to select DW and range carefully to make sure that a 2" spacer in the corner is enough to provide clearance for their doors to open. If not, you'll need to increase the spacer width and reduce the sink cab by that same amount.

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    tashamh2,

    Some days I have time to read, some days not. Today I don't have time for lisa_a's post. In her first paragraph I spot more than 3 things to rebut, so I stopped reading it at the first paragraph. Then, I saw the diagram. It's a nice way to show the worst possible implementation. But, I can also admit that a larger island might not be good enough for you. The point is to explore the layout options. Before you decide that you will live in a tiny space that is made to feel tiny because everyone can see practically everything from all angles no matter where they are in the space (except one corner). This would be like a college dorm for life. No intention to hurt your feelings in describing it so.

    So, a few more ideas, tweaking, optimizing redefining and redrawing. The fridge (FD) can be placed against the powder room wall. This was mentioned before, but even if it hadn't been mentioned, it's a minor tweak to get more space, so I hope no one posts to claim I was withholding valuable ideas. Besides, things move step by step; so revealing tweaking details in a followup is also fine. Getting there step by step is more fun, more learning, more educational for one and all.

    The fridge can be a 30" FD so its doors won't go out into the inner sanctum much. The island can be extended then. Also the island can be extended even farther, for another reason: you only need a 36" passage in one place, not two. On one end of the island the passage can be less than 36".

    At the far end of the island is the range in the drawing shown above. I've already mentioned an option in a previous response to lisa_a in this thread. The option mentioned would take less space for the range and give more space to the island. Here is option #2: put the range on the wall where the DW is. In fact, swap the DW and the range (remember the fridge is on the powder room wall).

    Next to the fridge you can have an appliance garage and storage place. This is between the fridge and the wall. It is a continuation of the countertop. In a followup post I can describe how to optimize the garage / fridge corner.

    The cabinets that hold the DW can be 22" depth and only that. Disregard lisa_a's query (( about assuming it all "will be pulled 1" forward from the wall to create a 24" deep counter." ) This gives you a couple more inches. Great. More wiggle room.

    The sink can be almost any sink. Undermounting it gives you more countertop surface area. Disregard lisa_a's query ((about the sink being an Ikea sink.) It might be an Ikea sink or it might be any other make.

    Disregard lisa_a's query about the counter overhang ( " ... to be 2.5" not the standard 1.5" " ). Think first about the inches of the cabinets. Any counter of any dimensions goes on top after that. Your countertop will be purchased from any countertop manufacturer, any kind, any make. It might be from Ikea or maybe not.

    Hth

    p.s. The fridge can be a 30" FD or a 27" single door. Or a 24". It's all a matter of tradeoffs. Where you live, you don't need to drive to a mega store every so often and to come home in a car filled to the gills and to unload it and re-stock the house. The tradeoff is not a big deal. A tall 24"w fridge would be great in your house. To have an extreme luxury setup, you could have another fridge or freezer in the laundry room.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Thank you, Davidro1, for your suggestions and Lisa_a, for sketching them out. You all have thankfully made me realize that I am in way over my head. I have been planning the basement renovation off and on for the last 6 years and have a team of professionals helping me with that - project consultant, architect, 3 bidding contractors, neighbors with converted basements, etc. But, last week I naively thought I could throw in a kitchen renovation fully planned by myself over the holiday break and have it ready for the bid package that I'm sending the contractors in the New Year. As you can tell, I've never renovated a kitchen.

    So, the forum gave me a much-needed reality check. I've canceled my road trip to Amish Country. Instead, I'm going to spend the holidays really paying attention and documenting how I use the kitchen and how I would like to use my kitchen. That way I can have an informed conversation with the contractors in the New Year about how I would like my kitchen to function.

    So, thank you all for all of the great advice and time you've spent schooling me. I will take all of this invaluable information and come back in the New Year with a more solid plan for which I would love your feedback.

    Happy Holidays!

  • marcolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I think you started with a good plan and then went wandering off in odd directions. I'd continue to talk to contractors and cabinetmakers so that you start to get a sense of ballpark prices.

    Happy holidays!

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    As liriodendron posted in your Steps to Planning thread, layout is a good place to concentrate your energy.

    When you get eyeballs looking at the bones, ask about making a wall thinner. In an old house you can gain inches by reducing the dimensions of one of the walls. In the basement, looking at the wood used in the structure will tell you a lot. A 1906 house structures was built big and oversized, as was the norm for those days. Today's knowledge base is better. Today it's easy to figure out what you can reduce or might replace with thinner and stronger materials. (or methods). It's easy to figure out what to reinforce, if your builder sees something that is weaker than the rest. Adding steel I beams can turn a weak point into a strong point.Thick walls may become thinner after you spend a little. Post on the remodeling forum about your large wood studs, after you look at them enough to know how to describe them.

    The powder room wall can be thinner while remaining insulated for sound. The laundry wall probably can be made to be thinner too. Recessing something into these two walls is also possible. This is easy not hard. Also, these walls can be moved. Not easy, but also not a challenge.

    One you know what your walls are made of, and how they were built, you'll be more able to discuss whether any appliance can be recessed in wall #1 or the other, or whether you want to move the wall or a piece of a wall.

    F.y.i. It can cost very little to install a wider window. It costs a lot more to install a wider and lower window because of the plumbing vent pipe in the wall. This is an example of why it is important to know where each pipe is.

    Hth

    Here is a link that might be useful: Steps to Planning

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Marcolo - Agreed! LOL! I'm back from La-La land.

  • Tasha Harris
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I wanted to send you all a big THANK YOU for all of the guidance you provided me. I spent the last week devouring this forum and meeting with the three bidding contractors for the basement renovation. You guys were spot on in terms of discussing the possibilities of the kitchen renovation with my contractors. Not only did I learn that structural changes will not be a big expense since the guts of the house will need to change to accommodate the basement conversion, but I learned that it would be more expensive to turn the back porch into a laundry room vs. moving the existing powder room to where I had envisioned the coat closet and adding a stackable W/D in the kitchen. So basically, I will move the powder room in order to extend the kitchen to the dining room. I will post the GC's proposed layout for your input when I get to that point.

    I also spent the last week getting to know myself better...who know GW would be so therapeutic! One of Sweeby's post was extremely helpful in helping me clarify how I envision my kitchen functioning. Another AHA moment...I'm not as shallow as I thought; I too like function. So, I created the chart below which might be useful for other newbies:

    Thank you again everyone. You'll hear more from me in the coming weeks as I finalize the layout and start picking out the finishes. Happy New Year!

    Here is a link that might be useful: When planning a kitchen - words of wisdom

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    hi tashemh

    I see five statements under goals. Looks good. Some of them are more significant than others.

    Plan for more countertop and you will get more storage as a byproduct. The goal of greater storage will be achieved when you have more countertop. Under the larger countertop surface will be more space. With deep drawers, and full extension drawers, you get a lot more useable storage.

    When the flow of traffic from back door to front door gets improved, it leads to better views too.

    Since you can move the doorway, your better flow will be finalized when the ideal floor plan gets decided. That depends on where you put the hood/range and fridge. You might move the door several inches and gain a lot.

    Aesthetically pleasing = better to look at. Significant in a small space. Clean lines and warm not cold.

    Areas. Whether one sees an area as a zone or a triangle, it's the same thing. Call it whatever. Since you may be alone in the kitchen most of the time, some of the comments you may read or hear can be taken with a grain of salt. The larger the kitchen, the most useful it is to think of zones and to plan for zones. Like factory assembly lines: they specialize the tasks into certain areas of the factory. The smaller the kitchen, the less critical it is to think of your zones. Without exaggerating, I can state that one step is all you need to move to another zone, in a small kitchen.

    Hth

  • davidro1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Laurie35 has a 7 1/2 by 10 foot kitchen. She wrote that today in the 'What is Timeless' thread. I'll bet it has two parallel countertops. A galley. I'll bet the two countertops are less than 26 inches depth.
    ( http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0112223910106.html?87 )

    Add 3 1/2 and you have enough extra space to make a galley, with one of the two countertops being a long island. Something like what jmith has:

    Hint hint.

    Here is a link that might be useful: jmith has 16 inches more space than you have