It'd help if you could post the layout. If everything else works, I don't think it's that far to walk 10' or so to the fridge...That's about 4 walking steps. I'd worry more about how it all works otherwise, and if traffic patterns and work areas don't overlap, etc.

I agree with rhome410, having a layout definitely helps. Sometimes its hard to visualize the space.

We're doing an L with an island with the fridge on the short arm of the L and a beverage fridge on the opposite side of the long arm of the L which will make it accessible from the porch/yard and family room as well as the island.

This is an older version of the layout (our island will NOT be this shape), but the main fridge location is set and the bev. fridge will be where is says B33 (cabinets are changing) on the north (top wall).

The short leg (fridge wall is ~16'). The long leg (including the door) is ~19'. HTH.

I'm having a difficult time picturing it...you say the kitchen is an "L"...one leg is 14' or 15' w/island. How long is the short leg? I assume the island is lengthwise, parallel to the long leg.

You then say the DR is on the opposite end of the kitchen from the island seating area. That's where I start to lose you. Do you mean the DR is in a room behind the wall with the short leg and the seating is at the other end of the island, at the short "open" end? I'm not sure what you mean.

A layout would really help...even if it's a rough sketch, along as the dimensions are listed (wall lengths, window widths, distance b/w walls and windows or doors, width of doorways, etc.) I usually use graph paper so I can draw to scale, but it's not necessary as long as you have measurements.

Here is the rough sketch. The formal dining area is right behind the doorway that says "LR/DR". So the idea is to put either a taller cabinet or a backsplash behind the island sink to hide it from the DR.

Here is a picture that shows the shape of the island which is similar to what i am thinking to do:

I like where they have the fridge on this photo, but if we did it this way, we would a)move it farther away from the DR and b)block the range area from the family room. So this is now a major concern for me. I'd like the kitchen to be practical and very comfortable for everyone whether they are cooking or eating, and we are so used to our small kitchen where everything is whithin reach. So I really appreciate your input.

davewg, thanks for the picture, are you planning to use your beverage center for beverages only or also for food?

Just wanted to add a clarification, the small table that is shown in the family room is intended as a "play/work" table for the kids, not as an eating area, at least for now.
(Our dining table is currently a "play & work" table which drives me nuts because it is the first thing you see when entering the house and also because it is rarely available for eating, so I am trying to find a remedy for that problem here)

annab6

It would give the kitchen a more closed in feeling to put the fridge toward the family room, but it sounds like you might prefer that. I see no problem with moving it to the family room end of the the stove wall as long as you don't end up crowding the stove. I can see why you think it might be most convenient there.

I love your work/play table!

annab66...

The "plan" for the beverage fridge is just for drinks, but around here who knows. We placed it there for access to the yard, screen porch, FR and island.

I agree with Rhome410's suggestion, especially if groceries enter the house from the front door. Now food is much closer to your prep/cook area and gives you a long run of counter on the other wall for a baking area, or a second sink for clean up. Move the DW there too and use the island sink purely for prep. The end of that left hand run could then have a bev. fridge for times when you use the DR (and patio) and don't want to trek to the now relocated main fridge.

Just a couple of quick notes, I think the refrigerator move would work. To prevent crowding the range, why not just switch walls with the refrigerator & range? Center the range on the "west" wall and put the refrigerator on the "south" wall--either at the end of the cabinet run or 2' or 3' in to give you a message center landing space on the end of the run. This will give you a good workflow...refrigerator to sink & prep to range to DR...and with the range on the "west" wall, food is closer to the DR for serving...always a good idea when serving hot food!

By providing a dedicated Message Center area separated from the rest of the counter (by the refrigerator), you will isolate the Message Center clutter in one place and it won't be able to "spread" b/c the refrigerator will be in the way. You could even have a tambour (sp?) door for "hiding" the clutter when you have company. This Message Center could be a charging center for cell phones, cameras, etc.; a place for the land line phone & directories that's near both the kitchen and the FR; a place for keys and mail; etc.

More later....

Thanks guys, let me try to digest this...

So does it mean you all agree that the refrigerator is too far from the seating part of the island or is it still a good option as well?

I thought about moving the main sink to the short leg of the L. Well, we are trying to hide the sink as much as possible from the LR/DR since this is our only chance to have a formal dining area. Right now we see our sink area from the dining area and I don't like it at all, it feels like the dining area is part of the kitchen somehow just because you are looking at the sink.

A preparation sink should be ok on that side but I have to keep it close enough to the range. My additional reason for a prep.sink is to make it useful for pouring water in/out of a pot. I am not a big person and if I can help it, I'd like to avoid having to turn 180 degrees every time while holding a pot filled with boiling water.

I also did seriously think about moving the range to the shorter leg of the L. I have a couple of issues with it, would like to know your opinion. First, we have no windows in the L-part, it is the center of the house, so it would mean working in a "dead corner" whenever you are using the range. Second, I always thought it is nice to have the range located opposite to the island in order to really use the island as a prep area. I think if the range is not convinient to the island and you need to prep food as well as watch something cooking on the range, you would be ignoring the island and just working next to the range which means spending even more time in the "dead corner". Do you disagree? I am trying my best to imagine it, never actually cooked with an island.

The message center sounds like a great idea. I keep thinking where are we going to keep all that stuff in an open kitchen and this is definitely something to be considered.

These are my thoughts so far but no real decision, I am still open to every possibility, please keep going

annab6

I wasn't saying to move the fridge because it's too far from the eating area...That isn't a consideration to me, because I don't necessarily think it's too far. BUT, I do say to move it because I see how it would be more convenient in that location for other reasons. The drawn plan has it tucked behind the island, which isn't that great from any of the places you'll want to get to it from. (The prep area, the eating end of the island, and family room.) If you move it, others can get to it without interrupting work in the kitchen a little better.

By 'working in a dead corner' if you put the range on the short wall, do you mean facing away from all the action and openness to the family room? If it was on the short wall, you could still use the end of the island for prep, which is, I think, big enough. Another BUT, though...If you want it across from the long side of the island, by all means leave it there! If you imagine it that way, maybe that's what you'll prefer and you should be able to work out a plan with it there.

From the way the doorways are drawn, it doesn't look to me like you'd see the sink from the dining room if it was on the short wall. If it were me, I'd like to use the perimeter for those types of zones and keep the island at one level to give you one large, open work surface. The island you have in mind, although, not wrong if it's what you dream of, is too cut up for me. An expansive island is a great place for baking and other projects, and gives a nice, gracious, more open look to the kitchen. --Just my opinion, though.

Again I'll agree with rhome410 about the fridge location. My thought too with moving it was that it would be a more useful location overall rather than its original location being to far from the island.

I think the range location is ultimately up to you too. Either location seems to work with the island as its laid out. One *potential* issue with the short leg location - venting may be a more difficult issue to solve than an outside wall. I don't know your house, so I can't offer any more of a suggestion to consider that item a bit.

If you wanted to have a clean up zone on the short wall, of course that sink would face a "dead" wall too. I don't think that's a problem, but do a search for some pictures to see what it looks like. As for hiding it from the LR/DR, what about a tall pull-out pantry unit at the end of the short run by the basement stairs.

I will say, that I always feel like one level islands are much more useful. Give you room to spread out large projects, homework, etc.

Keep playing around with it - this is the (relatively) easy part. Once the cabinets are installed there is no going back.

Here's what I was talking about. You have a lot of counterspace and cabinets. With this layout you have 2 or 3 possible prep areas...ideal for multiple cooks or even to use space according to what's needed. Work flow moves:
...from refrigerator to...
...prep sink OR island sink to...
...prep on counter left OR right of prep sink OR island to...
...range/MW (BTW...where's the MW?)

MW...I would consider putting it in either a drawer or upper cabinet "west" of the refrigerator. Most MWed foods generally go from the refrigerator or freezer directly to the MW. It also would keep the MW and refrigerator together for snacking from the FR...which they are both convenient to as well as the Kitchen.

Do you have a pantry? If not, you might consider putting one in...either walk-in/step-in or cabinets.

+++++++++++

If you bake a lot, you may want a deeper counter somewhere...island or one of the "legs" perhaps. If the counter is not raised, you have a good area on the island. However, if you raise the island, not only will the raised end be at a poor working height (unless you're very tall!)...but you also divide the space w/a physical barrier.

I don't know if you noticed, but the island in your inspiration picture only has a small section raised...the rest is at traditional counter level. How about this? It gives you an area of 48" x 33". It's 9" deeper than normal counters and still 4' wide. Not a bad area for baking...and it's near the oven (in the range).

++++++++++++++++

OTOH...If you move the refrigerator and leave the range on the same wall and the sink on the island, you will have an "empty" short leg. You could either leave it "empty" or you could create a "dish hutch" w/glass uppers that go to the counter...or something else that could be equally "decorative"

OR

The "empty" leg could be converted, at least partially, to a row of pantry cabinets or a step-in pantry. Not the entire leg, though, you will run short of counter space if you put in more than 4 or 5 feet of pantry.

Other possibilites:

Just some ideas to ponder!

Oh, I forgot one...with a corner pantry with a very nice door--similar to SharB's pantry. To get an idea of how it would look "in real life", see the I have a pantry suggestion... Ventilate! thread...linked below. There are a couple of pictures of her pantry in that thread. (I love this pantry!)

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: I have a pantry suggestion... Ventilate!

As always, buehl has great suggestions and the time/energy and kindness to put pencil to paper and sketch away.

For everyone on the site, thanks for all your help, buehl!!!

Thanks Dave! I really enjoy doing this...although my DH would like me to spend less time on this site...he thinks I get too many ideas...costly ideas!

I received so much help when I was designing my kitchen and now I'm "paying it forward".

Bump for AnnaB6....found it on page 30!

Thanks buehl and others who responded, this is the one I was looking for.

After much thinking I decided to:
a)keep the refrigerator in its original place
b)move the main sink from the island and
c)find a way to move the seating closer to the fridge

So I came up with this (also showing more of the rest of the house to give a better idea):

The KD is saying she doesn't like this location for the seating area due to it being to close to the working triangle but I think that it should be ok because it is only one seat that seems to overlap with the working area and this is going to be the "cook's seat" anyway. Or would it be a big mistake?

To the right of the refrigerator - dishes, sereal, bread. Want to keep this area "pretty" because it is the closest to the "formal" dining area.

To the left of the refrigerator - possibly a m/w either on a shelf or as a drawer.

I am not concerned about not having a big pantry - we have a good storage room in the basement right down the stairs which like a "walk-in pantry" with an extra refrigerator. All the rarely used items (like the fondue set) go there.

One problem is I really want a 24" or 27" second oven and I don't see a room for it alond the wall without crowding something else so it either has to go under the counter (hard to use) or into a bigger raised cabinet at the end of the island (probably not a good looking thing and would take away the counter space)

I think I mentioned everything, ready for your comments now.

annab6

Just had to add this one which is very similar to the photo I posted earlier, the layout seems to work and has the wall oven but (venting issues aside) now my cooking area is directly in the view of the formal dining area. Now, am I right to take that into consideration? I am concerned how it would look a few years from now when the appliances are not brand new and somewhat "dated".

We all just love you buehl! You have great ideas. Is this fun for you annab6? Can't wait till I get brave enough to post my ideas here. debs

Sorry, I can't like the first plan you posted yesterday. I would hate the seating in the midst of kitchen hustle and bustle, and your prep areas are on the far side of the cleanup zone from the fridge. And the fridge is only easily accessible from that island seating.

The 2nd one is much better, but I'd want to swap the sink and cooktop, or maybe the fridge and ovens. If you moved the fridge, I'd also want the prep sink moved toward or on that end of the island, and this would put the fridge in close proximity to both eating areas.

If you swap the sink and cooktop, which I think I prefer, you get an uninterrupted traffic pattern for the often used Fridge-to-prep-to-stove movement...And the fridge is easily accessible for the island seating and those coming from the family room for drinks or snacks. If it were me, I might also put the ovens on the end of that run (either side of the fridge would probably work)...Still out of the way of the cook at the stove if others are baking, but close enough to move something from cooktop to oven when necessary. This would leave that whole shorter wall section for cleanup sink, dw, and dish storage.

Sorry for the quality of this, but my whiteout and black pens seem to have disappeared...Part of the joy of a large family! ;-)

Thanks Deb and rhome,

I am not really having fun right now, sorry. I would be, without a question, but I am not finding my "perfect" layout and therefore we can't move on with the project. In the meantime we (or I because DH is "fine with any layout you pick") are under pressure to get it done and let the architect work on the changes to our original plan to accomodate it.

Anyway, after reading about Buehl's troubles with the ventilation, we decided to check with the contractor right away before selecting the location for the range. Found out that our best choice would be to reuse the existing ductwork which means the range has to be againt the "back" wall. This leads us most likely to the drawing posted by rhome410 above.

Now I am trying to visualize the flow. Refrigerator to prep.sink to range to either of the eating areas works fine. Island seating is close to the fridge which is great.

A couple of things I am not sure about. How would it work for more than one cook? I think when I am cooking with a child or whoever, the idea is to socialize too, so both people would have to be somehow at the island. I guess this is possible if one person is using the oven or making a salad while the other is using the range. But I don't think the main sink would be used for cooking that often so it would be mostly dedicated to the cleanup.

On one side, i really like not having a big sink on the island and having that "clean-up zone" clearly defined. But on the other hand, I am having second thoughts because I see a couple of issues:

a) The "flow of dishes". The dishes are on the other end from the island seating and the fridge, so if one of my two kids wants a glass of milk, they have to get a glass from that cabinet, get the milk from the fridge, then after they are done, they need to put the milk back and then walk to the main sink with the glass. I am wondering if they would do that or if their dishes would always end up in the prep sink.

b)The main sink is close to the dining table so when we change plates during a dinner party, the dirty plates are right there, almost in plain view. I was hoping to keep this area "pretty looking".

My other option would be to switch the sinks or just have a sink-and-a-half in the island, but I think the seating would have to be along the back side then, which is a little crowded in the walkway and also would eliminate the raised cabinet which again infringes on my idea of no mess being visible from the dining area.

Bar seating would solve the last one but we don't want it because of the kids and older relatives coming to visit.

So I am stuck again. I hope this post isn't too long to read through. Let me know what you think and what would your choice be?

annab6

Not sure why you think this plan will be a problem for more than 1 worker. That's the value of zones, sinks that can be accessed from more than one direction, and an island that can be worked on from 4 sides.

I suppose the glass to milk to sink thing is a possible pain, but I think it comes under no plan can meet every contigency, and choosing your battles while meeting your highest priorities first and/or best. Only you can decide those.

It's difficult to tell from a floor plan what the view of the sink would actually be from being seated at the table. Most chairs face away from that direction and even those that can see that direction will have their attentions focused elsewhere and will have to look through or past other people to see the sink. That's another thing that probably only you can judge and decide whether or not it's a deal breaker.

Maybe, in my version of the plan, try swapping the sink and dw for the fridge and oven? Then move the prep sink toward the new fridge location. This improves the view from the table, but may take away some of the other advantages of the plan.

Thanks rhome,

I think this plan is pretty good but we are doing it once and planning to stay in the house for many years so I would like to make sure it works really really well in most day to day situations. I think I am just very used to my current kitchen where we can't fit much but on the other hand don't need to make more than two steps to reach anything.

I am thinking along the same lines as you, that maybe swapping the fridge and the sink would be better. Will try to walk through that.

My main problem is that I would love the dishwasher and the dishes to be by the seating area (may be in the island). But also would like the fridge around there too. But not in love with the idea of the main sink in the island. I am even thinking about having the dishwasher next to the prep sink instead of the main sink. It sounds like with a "no-pre-rinsing" dishwasher the "main" sink may be there for washing large things which don't fit in the dishwasher anyway or for fine items that are washed by hand. Would this be a strange thing to do?

The main reason I am going through this "workflow" is that we are a busy family and kids have different schedules so we may have someone eat dinner at 6:00, someone else at 7:30 and someone at 9:00 so there is constant serving, self-serving, warming up and cleaning going on. I don't think walking a few extra steps is a big deal but with kids carying things around it can result in more mess.

sorry this is such a long post
again, thanks for your help
annab

If you have the dw by the prep sink, you'll end up with dirty dishes clogging both sink areas. Somethings soaking in the big one, or waiting to be handwashed, and the things to go in the dw stacking up in or around the prep sink...I'd think this would especially happen when people eat in shifts. Sometimes the dw will already be running and the new dirty dishes will have to wait their turn somewhere...

So maybe go back to your last plan...And how about this...Make the sinks identical farm sinks (or something similar), put the dw between the outer wall sink and the fridge or to the left of the island sink (next to one sink and right across from the other), then you can use them however you see fit at the time! It could work.