link to 1st flr plans

Here is a link that might be useful: 1st flr plans

how many cooks? what does the KD have in mind for that extra space? does that include moving the PR over to the right also?

I don't think I'd like that long peninsula blocking area in the kit. maybe an island would fit?

DR/study - why 3 doorways into the study? if it can be closed off why does he think it isn't private?

I guess when you entertain it would be good to have the DR by the great room...

but this way as soon as dinner is over you could usher people into the foyer, hand them their coats and say goodnight...lol!

here is link to revised kitchen plan by designer

Here is a link that might be useful: Revised kitchen plan

I'd have to agree that the kitchen seems rather significantly undersized for the rest of the house.

Is there any way to take the whole 'block' containing the powder room, pantry, and W/D wall of the utility room and scoot it 2' over toward the other utility room wall? That would reduce the utility and mud rooms a bit, but get you more kitchen space. Then I'd look at moving the fridge closer to the hearth room (maybe combine with pantry?) and rearrange the space totally with a 'real' island instead of the 'baby' one in the revised plan.

I agree, there is a disproportionate amount of space in the utility/rear entry area, both of which seem to have larger functional spaces than the kitchen itself.

I would try to remove square footage from the rear entry/laundry area and take some of that space occupied by these areas and the powder room and pantry and add it to the kitchen. The powder room is about as small as it can get but it could move over, and the pantry, utility and rear entry could somehow be combined into a more efficient complex

I know the foundation is set, but are the walls? Is there any way to move 3 feet or so of the Utility Room & Rear Entry into the Garage & then reduce both those rooms by 1 foot? That would give you a kitchen approx 16'5" x 14'10" & that part of the garage approx 23'9" deep.

You have a huge garage and it seems to me you could afford to lose a few feet in part of it to give you more room in a room that will be used much more often and will add much more to your "quality of life".

Here's the layout (you'll get more comments if the layout image is embedded in the thread).

DR switch...I would not want to switch the Study & DR. First, I think it would put the DR too far away. Second, if you stick the w/walls & doors b/w the Great Room & the Study like I see on the plans, the Study will have much more privacy where it is than where the DR is. The DR is near the Rear Entry which is where most of the traffic in/out of the house will be.

Sorry, but it makes no sense to me to make that switch.

Appreciate all the ideas. Thank you Buehl for embedding the layout in the thread. I am new at this and don't know how to. I wish I had discovered this forum before I signed.

We are going to ask the builder about taking space from the garage when he is back from his 3 week vacation to Mexico. We have already taken 2 ft from the laundry and mud room. We did not want to give up more space there as I also wanted to put a freezer there and we need the closet space, cubbies, bench. But if we can we would go into garage. Are there any structural issues we would have to worry about if we do that?

As far as DR switch, dh favors the switch so that he can have columns with arch at the foyer entrance to switched DR and 10 ft opening between the great room and dr with 3 ft wall on each side flank by colums and arches. The great room would be more formal room for entertaining and the hearth room would be more for informal family living. He thinks it would be nice to have the columns with arches and the great room would have a more open flow plan with visibility from foyer. He wants to have ability to use desk as he pleases and not worry about how it looks from the foyer or great room. If we make the switch then he would also add a single door at rear entrance and add sheers to the door in order to prevent visibility into study.
I am very vary about the switch because of the distance from kitchen.

What do you think about the 3 1/2 ft space between breakfast bar and corner wall between gr and dinette in revised kitchen plan?

I would consider taking space from one or more rooms to make the kitchen bigger (the utility room, entry room, pantry room, powder room, 4 car garage, great room, hearth room, dinette, dining room).

I don't understand the orientation of the revised kitchen. Is it sideways or same direction as the main plan?

I posted a clearer revision of my suggestions for your kitchen layout on this forum this morning around 9 a.m., but it has disappeared. Since posts seem to be coming and going, I'll wait to see if it shows up again. In the meantime, if anyone is interested in going over there and trying to draw my plan of the island with a partial circle at the end toward the dinette, the link is below. The island is sort of a keyhole shape, with the right side of the circle bulging out to the right.

Jessica has mentioned several times that her DH wants to switch the DR and study. My plan assumes the study has become the DR, so I moved the kitchen door. I used 14'6" for the width of the wall the door is on, and 17' for the distance between this wall and the Great Room/Dinette corner. My missing revision switched the fridge and ovens, and included more specific detail. Hope it shows up!

BTW, be sure you save anything you type or imbed as you switch back and forth. I'm having a terrible time trying to go backwards within and from these forums.

Anne

Here is a link that might be useful: My post last night on BAH on Jessica's kitchen

OK, I guess my replies were lost...luckily, I still have my browser open w/the thread up...here goes...

If you can gain those 4', then how about something like this?

I increased the doorway into the hall to 36" b/c I think you'll find this will be a busy doorway...which is why the refrigerator is moved almost 24" up and there are 42" b/w the refrigerator & the counters.

Do you bake a lot? I put in a Baking Center in case you do. It's 51" wide x 31.5" deep (including counter overhang in all directions) and next to the ovens & pantry (where the baking supplies might be stored). If you would like a lower counter and/or maybe a different counter material (like marble) for baking (rolling out dough often works better on a lower counter & you can roll directly on marble)...then this is ideal as it's a separate run of counter, so no transition issues.

The trash pullout is placed so it can be accessed from the Cleanup Zone (where the sink & DW are), the Cooking Zone (where the cooktop is), and the Prep Zones (two of them...on the island and b/w the cooktop & main sink).

The refrigerator & MW are placed so outsiders accessing them will not get in the way of those prepping & cooking. However, they are still easily accessed from the main Prep & Cooking Zones. The location of the refrigerator will also make it easy to get to from those coming in from outside via the "Rear Entry" (a.k.a., a Mudroom). It's also easily accessed from the current location of the DR as well as the "Dinette" and "Hearth Rooms".

The Cleanup Zone is separated from the Prep & Cooking Zones...which becomes more important in a multi-cook and/or Prepping/Cooking + Cleanup help kitchen.

About the cooktop area...I just put in what you had. However, those 9" wide areas do seem rather small and w/a 6" bump out I would be afraid it would reduce the usefulness of the counters beyond the bump out b/c of the distance you would have to reach "in" to get to them. Have you considered a 3" bump out instead? What did you plan to store in those 9" cabinets? Spice pullouts? Tray/cutting board storage? Something else?

Question...You have glass door-ed cabs in your layout flanking your cooktop & hood in what appears to be open space above 42" high walls. Are these cabinets supposed to be hanging down into those open spaces? If so, consider eliminating them. Those types of cabinets are big "view blockers" and they force anyone over 5' or so to have to bend down to talk to someone in the other room. Glass doors don't make a difference...they're still obstructions. (You actually don't see too many of these anymore and those that do have them are removing them.)

Addressing the whole rearranging of formal & informal spaces. Do you need a large amount of house space devoted to formal spaces? Spaces that, let's be honest, are not kid-friendly or usually...

Next...

I thought I'd post a visual of what I see as the major Zones in your kitchen.

OK, I lost the rest...it jumped to "Missing File"...so, I will try to reproduce my last reply...(wait! my last reply was in a "notepad" file! yes!)

Do I like your KD's latest kitchen space? Not particularly. The island is a barrier island for the cooktop and there's seating in front of the sink which means any dirty dishes are "in your face" if you're seated there...and a raised counter won't really help.

Add to that the fact that you want a two-cook kitchen, and that means two people need access to water & prep space around your cooktop. [BTW...do you not find that your sons are bringing home friends & that they want to hang out in the kitchen...trolling for food!? My teenage son seems to do nothing but eat...ditto his friends! (And they're all so skinny!)] If so, then you need room for more than two people!

On the plus side, the cooktop is completely protected from outside traffic...but it's also a "trapped" situation b/c of the island...especially w/only 3' aisles. I'm assuming there is no seating at that island...there is nowhere near enough space for any type of seating at the island.

I think my post got dropped.

I said that it might be a radical idea, but perhaps you can get a highly functional houseplan from someone on the forum that is a close fit for the foundation without too much modification.

I would add to Buehl that it is not ideal to have the refrigerator opening into an aisle and to walk so far to the freezer. Also sink, refrigerator, range, cooktop is really far apart and that means a lot of walking, and the aisles aren't wide so I think you might feel cramped. I also don't see the dishwasher close enough to dish cabinet storage for convenience or am I missing something? If you have to walk a ways to put dishes up that is a lot of walking.

Thank you Buehl for the drawing. You are really good at this. Would you be able to enlarge the island further or make it semi-circle like Anne suggested. I am unable to visualize Anne's plan but if you are able to, would you be able to draw it. Your plan, as I understand is only possible if I go further into the garage. Anne, does yours also need this expansion or does it fit in the KD's dimensions? Anne, I think I would still leave the doorway where it is as I prefer to be closer to the garage to get in groceries as I use that more often as opposed to the dining room which I use only when I entertain. Also I would prefer to keep the range out of the traffic area.

I agree with your comments regarding the KD plan and I was going to ask her to reduce the island size in order to have 3 1/2 feet aisle space all around. Also she had recommended putting the sink more to the left in the curved portion but I thought that would encroach onto my prep space. I do like the sink and dishwasher being closer to the dinette so it is a shorter walk when we clear the dinette table and I can just get the plates directly at the breakfast bar. Also I do like that I can see outside, into the dinette, hearth room, and great room when I am cleaning up.

I definitely like the open concept about your plans with entrance into the kitchen from both the hearth room and great room, especially since the peninsula does narrow the entrance from the great room.

We are going to eliminate the glass cabinets and put wall with wood cabinets so as to get more cabinet space.

My plan does not impact the garage, but takes 1'6" from the utility/rear entry. I took what seemed to me the bare minimum needed for the kitchen from the utility room [L to R: 2'6"(cabinets+range sticks out)+3'6"(aisle)+3'(narrow end of the island)+3'6"(aisle)+2'(cabinets)=14'6"]. My laundry is 8'3" wide with a similar configuration to yours, and I wish it were a tad larger (was supposed to be originally), so I didn't want to make yours any narrower than 8'6". Also, I'd put the freezer on the same side as the washer & dryer, and the sink on the opposite side to make the space work more smoothly.

I moved the kitchen door just enough to still mostly be hidden by the stairs from the foyer, and also to be able to form the "L" of cabinets to the right of the kitchen door. If I remember what I'd figured out in the post that disappeared, I had the wall from the left side of the kitchen to the left side of the kitchen door 5' long--still not too far from the back door. The range (IMO) is still out of the main traffic area, since I've moved it to the left of where you have it--I think in my dropped post I'd figured the cabinet space between the range and the wall to the left of it would be plus or minus 3', with the same size cabinet space to the right of the range, and the "hutch" to the right of that (size TBD); everything along this wall can be adjusted to suit you in the existing space (which I'm guessing at the measurement of--I figured it to be 17' from the front kitchen wall to the great room/dinette corner. Can you provide the exact measurement of this space? I need this to determine cabinet possible sizes on the R & L of the cooktop.) Also, with the end of the island 5'6" from the kitchen door, there's plenty of circulation space in the general area of the range with the cabinets NOT making an L on that side of the kitchen. If I'm remembering correctly, the sink in the island was about opposite the cabinet that's to the right of the range.

Anne

Well shucks! Yesterday I posted a suggestion and it disappeared.

In a nutshell, what about enlarging the pantry, shrinking the utility room, and moving your extra fridge/freezer into the enlarged pantry. We did that, and it was one of the best design decisions we made. Great for putting away groceries, so long as you have one nice-sized extra-deep shelf that can also work for a landing zone.

Since your pantry is so central to the kitchen, you could even move ALL of your refrigeration into the pantry, eliminating a large often-ugly 'box' from the kitchen, and generally, saving a bundle of money by allowing you to use more reliable (but less attractive) appliances that cost less and work better.

Well, I found my penciled sketch of your kitchen (I'm really sorry I can't post it for you), and my memory let me down on a few measurements:

--4'6" from the left of the kitchen door to the wall.

--Less than 3' for the cabinet space on each side of the range.

--Make the left aisle 42", since the cooktop is no longer opposite the island.

--The island is 42" wide at the short end opposite the kitchen door.
I added 12" deep shelving in the end of the island facing the kitchen door for cookbooks, etc. Opposite the hutch run of cabinets, in the island to the left of the bookcase is the DW, then the main sink, then the trash cab. On the backside of these 3 base cabinets are three 18" deep base cabinets for storage facing the pantry/oven wall. The circular counter top starts at the left front corner of the trash cabinet, curves around to the right out about 18" from the back corner of the trash cabinet, is about 12" off the point of the right corner of the 18" deep storage cabinet that backs up to the trash cabinet, goes back out about 18" at the center of this same storage cabinet, and curves back in near the right front corner of the left storage cabinet, and then continues straight along the front of the cabinet. A lot of words Jessica, but if you put pencil to paper, you may be able to get it close enough to visualize the layout if no one else draws it out.

--6'9" between kitchen door and end of island, since I moved the fridge to the right of the door and it sticks out further than the ovens that are now at the other end of this "L". This let me get a nicer curve on the island over past the ovens. There's a large bar sink to the right of the ovens, and a lazy susan in the corner base cabinet.

Anne

My dh liked Buehl plans and also liked Anne's ideas. We will talk to the designer about them.

Buehl, is it possible to extend the island even more towards dinette and make it circular like Anne suggested? Have you taken the extra 2' from garage because it seems your width is 15' and not 17'? Could you give me dimensions of the walls in your plan.

The kitchen wall with refrigerator and pantry is 14 ' 10'' from the doorway to corner of hearth room. The opposite parallel wall with the glass cabinets is 12' 10''. The kitchen in original plan is 13' feet in width and new kd's plan is 15'.

DH and I are going to try to draw out your plan, Anne.

Sweeby, how would i extend the pantry? Would I then need to eliminate the door from hearth room to utility room? I really like having the door for convenience.

Monkeypuzzle, the new kd's plan is sideways.

Happy New Year! It's midnight as I'm starting this.

I'm glad you are going to attempt to draw out my plan. Let me see if I can give you a little more help, using buehl's 17:30 p.m. plan from Dec. 30. You also may have to refer back to my earlier posts for some info. Using the cabinet depth as 2', her plan appears to be almost 17' wide, so you'll have to knock out 2'6". Take it out of the doorway straight up the aisle across the room, and I'll use the rest of the things on her design to try to help you substitute my plan.

Left wall: get rid of 24" cab to left of cooktop, and move cooktop left into the space and on over a few more inches. You can adjust this after you get the whole plan generally in place. Ultimately, have matching cabinets on each side of the cooktop, and a hutch or some sort of special configuration for your dish cabinets on the right end to finish out to a few inches from the end of the 12'10" wall.

Right wall: I have no cabinets where buehl has the 30" deep counter to the left of the pantry door, because since I have the kitchen 14'6" wide, I need that space for the circular part of the countertop. To the right of the pantry door are the ovens--same as she has them, and to the right of them is a large bar sink in a 30-33" cabinet. Lazy Susan in corner with skinny cabinet between it and the fridge. Completing the "L" is the refrigerator, roughly where she has the DW. (Remember, you lost 2'6" where she has the door.) It would be good to have as many inches of cabinet as possible between the Lazy Susan and the fridge, so that corner does not feel crowded. The only way to get cabinet space there is to move the kitchen door further to the left, or take more space from your utility room to widen the kitchen more than the 14'6" width I have, or bump into the Great Room. Traffic SHOULD go to the right into or past the "L", since people would be using the fridge, small sink, or MW if they're in the kitchen, or would be heading to the Hearth Room. Are your family members trainable? ;o) Get them to go to the right when heading for the Dinette, and stay out of your prep area!

Island: Explained in my Dec. 31, 12:28 post. Using buehl's island, put a sink where she has a 33" cab, a trash cab to the left of this, put the DW where she has the prep sink, and a bookcase/12" deep shelving to the right of this facing where she has the main sink & DW. My island is shifted more toward the dinette than hers, due to the fridge and cooktop sticking out. The circular countertop starts on the left side of the chair where it meets the counter in buehl's drawing. Now I need to interrupt my circle to talk about size restrictions. My understanding is that most granites are a maximum of 44-54" wide and 7-9' long. There are also size restrictions on materials like Silestone, etc. My island looks great when the circle is about 5' in diameter, but that's too large for granite. The widest round table I've ever had was 54" in diameter, and it...

The reason you need more than the 1.5' to 2' additional space is to allow you to have seating at the island. If you don't want seating, the "jog" is eliminated, and the aisle b/w the cooktop & island is reduced to the bare minimum of 36" (w/6" bump out or 39" w/3" bump out), you could probably get away with only the additional 2' taken from the Utility/Laundry Room.

BTW...regarding the placement of the sink and the view, etc. while cleaning up. Most people spend far more time prepping than cooking or cleaning up in the kitchen. Studies show that time spent in the kitchen is broken down as follows....

• 70% of the time is spent prepping

• 20% is spent cleaning up

• 10% is spent cooking

So, what does it make the most sense to do with a "view" or for visiting? Prepping...so the Prep Zone. If you want to look out your window or visit with others, then place your Prep Zone so you can see/visit.

I will try to find time to read Anne's posts later & try to construct what she's describing (not sure why she cannot draw it up & post it), but I'm visiting family this week and only have so much time to spend on the Forum. I did think about what if you cannot take room from the Garage, so I modified mine to only add the 2' from the Utility/Laundry Room & Rear Entry. I still think your garage is sufficiently oversized that you can more readily afford to take space from it instead of the Utility Room, but it's up to you & what can be done. (I.e., I'd much rather see you take the 2' out of the Garage than the Utility/Laundry Room & Rear Entry.)

Oh, regarding the refrigerator being on an aisle w/traffic. While it might not be "ideal", it's preferable to burying it in the Kitchen where outsiders/snackers would be underfoot when you're trying to work in the Kitchen. With wide enough aisles, it's not that big a deal. Also, remember that all Kitchens have compromises as far as layout is concerned. If you had free-reign to redesign it w/o having to worry about restricted floor space, etc., you might be able to get a close to "ideal" Kitchen, but you're now restricted to pretty much what you have as far as space & location are concerned, so now we do the best we can.

One comment...it seems to me that a lot of changes and/or priorities are being made for things that will only occasionally be used (formal areas) at the expense of probably the most-used rooms in the house...the Kitchen (most used) and Family Room. There seems to be an effort to make these most-used rooms the smallest rooms. While I don't suggest you make the Kitchen a huge Kitchen, I also would rather not see it be skimped on b/c of other, less-used areas, especially when those areas are already oversized (Garage). As to the Formal LR vs Great Room, I really think a larger FR is preferable to a larger Formal LR.

Have you thought of the following...

• Make the...

DH finally got our digital camera back from my son tonight, and then managed to get my plan for jessica13's house posted on the Building a Home forum. It took him so long to get it resized and posted there, that I didn't dare ask him to post it here, and I know less than he does about how to do it even though we tried to follow buehl's directions on the other post. Using the design software is easy for me; trying to post the design on GW always gets me upset--I just am always unable to do it. Sorry all you technically savvy people.

Anyway, it's at the link below if anyone wants to look at it and improve on it. For the island, I had to modify a table to get the circle, so it overlaps the trash cab and another storage cabinet on its back side underneath. Also, I would transition the right side of the circle with a curve so the countertop circle eases into the strait part.

I'll post some comments on the rest of the house design over at the BAH forum in a little while. I guessed at some of the measurements, but they probably aren't off more than a couple of inches.

Anne

Here is a link that might be useful: My plan for jessica's kitchen/house on Building a Home forum

All I did was click on the picture. It opened up Photobucket to the picture. Then I just copied the code from the box labeled "HTML Code" and pasted it here...and it's posted!

Many thanks for bringing the plan over here from BAH, buehl!

The problems are before I get to this last step--getting the picture from photoshop to Photobucket, and in the right size. Some day when I'm not in a hurry, I'll sit down and figure it out.

Anne

Do you have Microsoft Office Picture Manager? It's pretty easy to use. That's what I use to crop & resize my jpg files (both photos & those created from Microsoft PowerPoint).

I just crop out what I don't want and then resize using the "percentage" until the size of the pic is close to 400x300 or 300x400 or whatever (occasionally I'll use larger sizes, but I usually try not to exceed 400 in either direction). But, I do not specify a specific size...I stick to percentages so I don't lose the proportions.