I would do anything - ANYTHING - to get that bathroom out of the kitchen.

I also would remove the wall between the kitchen and dining room.
If you cannot, I really like your first layout the best. The area seems way too small for an island... it will be cramped for sure. Your first layout puts the bathroom more in the hallway and not in the kitchen (sjhockeyfan will be happier).

Things that would make it better IMO: Move the landing space to the left of the fridge so you can take things out of the fridge then bring them to the sink easier. Move your stove as close to the seating area as possible to give your self more prep space between the fridge and stove (maybe consider reconfiguring the windows so there is one on either side of the range).

I would do anything - ANYTHING - to get that bathroom out of the kitchen. Oops, fooled by the open backdoor in 2D late last night and didn't realise bath door opened directly into the kitchen.

If DR wall can be removed totally or partly, maybe something like this?

MW in pantry cab next to fridge and pullout cutting board (in the other pantry cab) for landing for fridge/MW.

[Farmhouse Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/farmhouse-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2114) by Burlingame Photographers Dennis Mayer, Photographer

I like the first plan. Great use of the window space! I agree, it's too small for the island and stools.

Wonderful serving area between dining room and kitchen, too! :)

Wow, you guys are great!

Sadly, there is nowhere else for the bathroom (no other plumbing/waste lines in the house. The sole upstairs bathroom is directly above the kitchen and shares the same waste stack. It's a not a huge house, there's not a lot of space to steal from.

While detestable, in this neck of the woods kitchen bathrooms are not uncommon. But as much as possible I'd like the door to be opposite the stairwell, in something of the hallway. Of course it's interior space there -- no window. Another thought is to put it in the area of the first of the two peninsula windows, again with the door in the hallway, with pantry opposite it, and the rest of the working kitchen to the rear of that.

Not sure we have the budget to remove the dinning room wall on top of moving windows, redoing the powder room, taking down the load bearing wall, new appliances, etc. But these are the first views of that option we're seeing. Some interesting possibilities there...

Thanks a lot, all these thoughts a hugely helpful.

sena01, in your first drawing, what if the toilet opened on the other wall, in the little hallway opposite the dinning room?

But what about seating -- a counter along the rear wall facing out the window? Not space enough for 3, right?

Another thought was to try to get seating in that pantry area adjacent to the dining room, but it's probably too tight unless the dining room door was moved to the other wall.

(fwiw, the dining room walls have nice wainscoting and crown molding. Not sure how much that would complicate moving doors and walls in there.)

I would NOT take out the wall, between dining room and kitchen. Your first plan is a very nice and appropriate kitchen for your house :)

First a question/suggestion about the bathroom walls. I know nothing about building, but do you have to have 5" thick walls for the bath? Every inch counts there, so maybe you should check that if you haven't done so already.

Bath in the kitchen, door on the DR side.

This is how it may look from the DR, if left open, assuming door opening towards the wall. Making the swing the other way may be inconvenient I think,

Dollhouse view (pls, ignore the kitchen part).

I have another peninsula layout.

Long wall, same as my Dec 2, 14 at 2:39 layout. I see, the part of this layout that's near the stairs as cleanup area and the part near the backdoor as prep, cooking.

No base cab next to fridge, but a cart you can move there when needed. Peninsula overhang only 10" (can be 12" on the short side, but my aisle calculations are based on 10" o/h), so I think 42" height may be better (since recommended o/h for counter height is 15",and for bar height 12"). 1" counter o/h for the other cabs.

In 2D (lots of arrows, numbers--I couldn't read the fractions, so wall sizes not exact). I don't know the size of panel needed on the side of the fridge, so assumed 2". Aisles measurements include 1" o/h.

If possible, an out swinging back door will be better.

sena01, you're so incredibly generous and helpful, we really appreciate it.

The view of the powder room from the bathroom is interesting. While damning, it's not an absolute deal breaker because we have a sideboard along the wall and the dining table is set deep into the room, so that view would would only be seen upon exiting the room toward the bathroom, upon which one would close the door.

(I'm only arguing for this because it's so appealing to have the bathroom on an exterior wall for window/ventilation.)

Let me ask you, using your last proposal, how feasible/practical do you think it might be to put a left hinge fridge on the 90 degree wall caddy-corner to the dishwasher, facing toward the peninsula? Not a lot of space there (~32"), I know.

The thing is, our fridge is presently about where you show it, and while it works fine most of the time, it can be awkward crossing the flow of traffic sometimes. Just wondering if a more congruous work zone is possible?

fwiw, here's an attempt at putting the powder room on the other exterior wall. A seating nook would be adjacent to it, and the plumbing chase can probably be reduced a bit.

Sure makes for a lot of cabinet space by the fridge (maybe too much), but the room volume seems smaller.

Well, I don't know what caddy-corner means, looked up the dictionary. If you mean placing the fridge diagonally, I believe it would need a lot of space. Or did you mean something else?

Sorry, that was supposed to be catty-corner, though that's probably of no more help.

See your last drawing. You have the dishwasher under the window, then to the left of that is a run of counter to the wall. Left of that is empty wall space. What if the fridge went there with it's back to that empty space of wall, at 90 degrees to the counter/DW. If the dishwasher door were open, it would pass just in front of the door of the fridge. It would make the space under the counter to the left of the DW dead space.

Is that making sense? If not it's probably because it's not a great idea in the first place :-(

It does make sense, but you'll loose a lot of storage and counter. Maybe, you can partly reach that cab b/w the fridge and wall from the stairs.

I came up with something else. I don't know if its possible or how it would feel when coming to the kitchen from the 42" entry next to the stairs. If you can move that entry then it may work better.

Increased the lenght of wall b/w stairs and kitchen. Not sure how much needed for a 36 fridge+15 cab+36 corner, 89-90 maybe?

Some deeper pantry cabs then 12" deep ones. Island on casters.

The eating bar is a wall mounted drop-leaf table, something like this.

Just noticed my bath has no walls in the last lay out. Hello sjhockeyfan!

I think what I did in my last layout, you can do with yours of Dec 3, 14 at 15:20. Extending that bottom wall would also make the bath entry more private. Though the pantry cabs near that extended wall would have to be shallower, I think you'll still have a lot of storage. You may even consider the drop leaf table on wall near the DR entry.

I still like the first option! But, if you want to move the bathroom...maybe this is an idea.

Instead of an island, a movable "butcher block" work table with stools that can slide under...would give you more flexibility. And an extra oven under the baking area/second window.

Wannakitchen, the first thing you have to do is start reading more about workflow and dimensions. A lot of your plans assume completely unrealistic aisle widths and some have zero space to actually prep a meal.

Here is a link that might be useful: Aisles etc.

Some interesting new thoughts you guys are presenting.

Marcolo, I agree with your concerns, but what to do? Most of the layouts are predicated on putting a sink at an existing window and the stove at an expanse of wall.

Any ideas for applying the Ice, Water, Stone, Fire rule to my space?

Lavenderlass's plan works but we'd need to see aisle widths.

Remember, it is no problem at all to put a sink in front of a wall, and often only a small problem to put a range in front of a window if code allows. (And it requires an island hood.)

What about this?

{{gwi:2142273}}

The half bath door is now off the hall rather than in the kitchen, and the half bath has a window.

With the kitchen now more open to the dining room, I'm not sure you still need in-kitchen seating. I gave it to you in the form of the banquette (which seats more than 3, incidentally), but I personally would opt against the eat-in kitchen in favor of using the nook where the banquette for an awesome, large walk-in pantry. That would also remove the question of whether or not to spend the money to add a window for the banquette (a pantry wouldn't need a window).

I would prefer to alter the placement of the windows on the right wall of the kitchen, but honestly it's fine, and with the remodel/move of the half bath and its window and the dining room opening, that is plenty of structural work eating up your budget. I suspect you won't have room for more.

If you end up having scads of extra money, I would want a window over the longest stretch of counter (between the cooktop and sink) so you can have a view while prepping.

I agree with you OP, that the bathroom should be up near the hallway.

I think the KEY ISSUE here is that your dining room is soooo cut off from your kitchen: you have to go around a little corner to get into the dining room. It seems like that is very rabbit-warren-y. Not good. Above everything else, I think you need a good doorway into your dining room. I think that will add a lot of value to your home.

I like Jillius' plan, but here is another for consideration. I left in the island because with the bigger doorway there, it won't feel as tight. Also, with the doorway there, you don't really need in-kitchen seating anymore, since there is now a connection between dr and k. I don't love that the pantry is so far from fridge, but maybe that's an OK compromise.

{{gwi:2142274}}

I should mention that 'my' plan is the OPs plan #2, with some minor mods.

That prep sink there might be quite nice because if you have some prep overflow, it can easily be swung over onto the counter between fridge and stove.

I tried to draw what I suggested on Dec 3, 14 at 18:13, but noticed that passage thru tall cabs and fridge would feel claustrophobic (unless you decide to change DR entry as Jillius drawn).

Maybe this can feel better, if you only change windows but leave DR entry at the same place.

Only one wall of bath extended. I think 91-92" can be sufficient if you go with a 30" sink base. So there'd be 47-48" for walkway and some shallow storage cabs.

The eating bar is still something that can be folded/dropped when not in use.

{{gwi:2142275}}

Meanwhile, did you see jm_seattle's finished kitchen? S/he has a tiny bath and a very nice banquette along with many ingenious features you might want to use in your kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: jm_seattle's kitchen

The aisle widths are a HUGE consideration. That's why I put in a movable work table, rather than a fixed island. I would NOT put plumbing or anything else on the island/table that would require it to remain in one place.

The space is only 136" across, which is 11'4"...not enough room for a fixed island with seating. But there is enough room for a rolling cart with possible stools, if they fit underneath. Think more surface space for prep (maybe butcher block?) than actual storage.

Again, I like the separate dining room and plan #1 if there's enough room in the bathroom and realizing that end stool probably won't work in the space.

As for the powder room in my most recent plan...it might be better to have the door be a pocket door or open out, depending on actual space in the powder room.

Keep working on this...I think with a few adjustments (and no 'fixed' island) it will be a great space :)

It is really time to use graph paper.

I still think you should remove the wall btwn kitchen and dining, colonial cozy small room vibe notwithstanding.

Here's one way to go. Notice that the door the the back yard is moved ~3' over.

Wow, you guys are just amazing with your ideas and generosity. You've exceeded all our expectations.

My wife and I haven't gotten a chance yet to really sit down and digest all these proposals, but I am fearful of some of the structural changes for budgetary reasons. I'm also reticent to elongate that wall by the steps because that closes off a sight-line to/from the front door/vestibule. My wife likes to leave the front door open (w/ the glass storm door closed) to allow light through the house and into the kitchen, and allow her a view to the front. I don't think she'd let me take that away from her.

sena, thanks for that link to jm_seattle's kitchen, it's truly inspiring. Interestingly, her space is only about 6" longer and wider than mine, and her toilet is even vaguely similarly situated like mine. I'm going to really study what they did. Maybe if I scrimp a few inches off the island (as Hydragea suggests) I could do something similar, maybe with the banquet/seating instead of the pantry by the dining room.

Anyway, thanks so much again to everyone! Will try to digest more fully in the next couple of days.

This post was edited by wannakitchen on Thu, Dec 4, 14 at 20:17

Working with the existing structure, this isn't to scale in any way, but is something like this worth exploring? Is there room for modest seating by the DR without closing off that passage?

{{gwi:2142276}}

Could you post a picture of the openness to the vestibule that your wife likes so much? The passageway looks so narrow, and it's not even in line with anybody standing in front of the sink or cooktop, so I am having trouble picturing what you are describing.

Also, do you have resale in mind at all? Generally people don't like the kitchen to be visible from the front entrance, so unless you are there for the long haul, perhaps your wife's desire for a breeze and light could be satisfied another way that wouldn't conflict with buyer preferences and the desirable option of giving the half bath a place off the hall with the window.

"this isn't to scale in any way"

I give up.

Marcolo, this is for you:

{{gwi:2142277}}

Here are the two layouts I suggested earlier on graph paper. Red lines are new walls. The layouts are identical except one has a banquette, and one has a walk-in pantry.

In both, traffic flow is in a nice straight line past the kitchen and dining and doesn't have anybody walking through kitchen work zones. The narrowest walkways are 42", and the walking areas in the kitchen work zones are extremely roomy. The half bath is no longer off the kitchen and does have a window. And the new dining room doorway will make both rooms feel larger and provide more natural flow/access to the dining room instead of walking around the weird corner now.

Honestly, if you were to do only one structural change, it should definitely be moving the dining room door.

{{gwi:2142278}}

go with a Jillius LO.

but exterior doors should not open outward.

Regarding the cost of "structural changes"

It's possible that the walls in question are not structural/load bearning, in which case the cost of adding/removing them is not significant. And if the wall between kitchen and dining is structural, it's just not that expensive to replace the wall with a 7' beam. I bet you're going to spend 5-10x more on electrical work, 5-10x more on plumbing, and 10-20x more on cabinets than it would cost to remove that wall.

Bottom line, don't rule-out "structural changes" based on uninformed assumptions about the relative cost of the changes you're considering.

Exterior doors can open outwards. It's very common to have your front door open inwards, but your back/patio doors open outwards. You just get a door with hidden hinges so the hinges can't be removed from the outside.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/15212/inswing-or-outswing-doors

http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/remodeling/question584.htm

(And if your back door leads to steps, that might not work -- couldn't be the kind of steps where a person at the top would be knocked down the steps if the door were opened.)

This post was edited by Jillius on Fri, Dec 5, 14 at 13:22

Gaucho, I hear you on the costs. I'm just saying, just to get to the point of the space I'm showing in my diagrams I'm taking down a load bearing wall, moving the rear window, which is now 18" from the adjacent wall and 27" off the floor, and gutting the upstairs bath directly above the kitchen. Also, the ceiling heights differ on each side of the load bearing wall, the floor has no subfloor, I want to add a skylight, I'm moving and replacing every appliance, including the powder room. (So removing 2 walls, new powder room, moving all windows plus one or 2 doorways, etc, adds up to a lot of structural changes.)

So, I'm not ruling anything out, but we're not flush with funds, and while resale value is always a concern, I'm not certain the house/neighborhood supports a "dream" kitchen. That said, I'm reticent, but not ruling anything out just yet because I also don't want to spend what would still be a lot of money on a poor design.

BTW, your Dec 4, 14 at 16:26 proposal looks pretty compelling.

Jillius, I'll see about photos later. I agree about not wanting to see directly into the kitchen from the front door, and thankfully there is a door between the vestibule and the stairs to the basement that closes off the space when desired. But mostly we leave it open for ease of passage and sight lines. The light connects the front and back of house and leads you from one area to the next. And it's convenient when coming down from upstairs or entering the house to get easily into the kitchen without having to wriggle through a turned corridor.

I do think it facilitates a better kitchen design, but I think it would impact the flow of the house negatively. You mention the weird corner between the dinning room and kitchen, and I agree, but I think turning the entrance to the kitchen into a maze would be similarly weird.

That said, we will give strong consideration to all these proposals. I really need to print them out and meditate on them. Maybe this weekend.

But I also have to confess something. I don't know how down I am with the whole open concept thing. I like to close off the rest of the house from cooking odors and cleanup noises. Last night by son was getting math tutored in the dining room and I was happy I could make them tea without disturbing their session. And I don't know if my wife could enjoy her meal seeing dirty pots on the stove. I guess we're a little formal in that way.

All that said, I know our space is a nightmare to work with as is, and we're really loving all the possibilities you guys are presenting us with. It's a huge eye opener!

You should post a plan of the whole floor the kitchen is on so we can see and make suggestions about these flow issues.

For my own kitchen, I definitely compromised on the best possible kitchen layout because the third-best kitchen layout did wonderful things for the rest of the rooms connected to the kitchen. So I understand very much where you are coming from, but we can't see anything but your kitchen currently.

One thing you could do for the opening between the kitchen and dining is put the opening where it honestly makes the most sense and isn't all maze-y, but put doors on that opening (barn or pocket or swing out- whatever works best). That way you can close it off when you want to.

This one is frosted and doesn't require room to slide doors in two directions. Something like that with more traditional mullions would probably work well in your house.

{{gwi:2142279}}

This has more traditional mullions, for reference:

{{gwi:2142280}}

Jillius, you are right, on several fronts. To mention a couple: 1) a whole floor plan would be really useful, 2) the possibility of a door between DR and Kitchen. We have many glass panel doors, so french doors like you show in your 2nd pic would fit right in. I've always loved pocket doors, as well, and will utilize one for the powder room, if wall space allows.

Regarding the floor plan, this leads me to another question I have. I know I need an architect to spec the beam and make drawings for removing the load bearing wall. For an additional fee they will do plumbing/electrical/design drawings for the whole kitchen. What I'm hazy on is when is the best time to proceed with the architect? On the one hand, their drawings would really help in the concept stage, on the other hand, I'd imagine there's only so far they can go until they know what doors and walls might also be moved.

I've never worked with an architect before, how iterative a process is it? On the one hand, it would be great to have their input and expertise in some of these decisions, on the other hand, do I want the vision limited solely to the architect's when crowd sourcing with you guys seems so fertile too?

How to navigate, and at what expense?

I think you need to brainstorm with a structural engineer that's familiar with building codes in your area. Some architects are also structural engineers, and some GC's &/or architects could probably answer your structural engineering questions even if they aren't, but structural engineering is the expertise require, and strictly speaking structural engineering and architecture are completely independent disciplines.

I'd settle for the powder room with no window...and use your first plan.

It works with the style of your home, gives you a bit of seating in the kitchen and is a good use of the window layout!

The stools would be a bit cramped (especially the one closest to the wall) but if you don't plan to use it very often...or have small children....it should work well :) {{gwi:2142281}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Dec 5, 14 at 16:35

Thanks Lass. That plan has 2 things going for it: 1) it's my wife's favorite (though she's not caught up with all the proposals made here yet). 2) it's probably cheapest from a structural standpoint, and I like that. ;-)

Here's a few more views of it.

{{gwi:2142282}}
{{gwi:2142283}}
{{gwi:2142284}}

I'm a bit concerned about the lack of workspace between the sink and stove (thanks marcolo). Also, I just relate peninsula's to mid-century modern or modern, not the more traditional vibe we were thinking. I guess the challenge would be to give that peninsula area some charm with wainscoting or the like. It also feels weird the way the uppers are all compressed in that corner.

Any thoughts?

>I'm a bit concerned about the lack of workspace between the sink and stove (thanks marcolo).

I agree with this whole-heartedly. Between more counter space to the left of the stove and the fact that there is actually light and a view there too, I would never prep between the sink and stove. I would carry every dripping thing from the sink to the left of the stove and work there. I think almost anyone would naturally do the same.

>Also, I just relate peninsula's to mid-century modern or modern, not the more traditional vibe we were thinking.

I agree with this. I've seen peninsulas in old kitchens with a dining area on the other side of the peninsula, but seats at the counter (at an island or peninsula) in general is more of a modern thing. And the way there is nothing on the other side of the peninsula except chairs is a bit out there for any kitchen. In a modern kitchen, it'd just seem like part of the funky, creative newness. But part of traditional styling is not forging new territory.

>It also feels weird the way the uppers are all compressed in that corner.

You could add shallow floor-to-ceiling cabinetry on the wall behind the peninsula to balance out the uppers all on one side. But I already feel like there is so much cabinetry in this kitchen that it already feels looming and closed in. I am hesitant to add even more.

Perhaps if you just nixed the uppers on the sink/stove walls altogether and had a wall of windows there instead (everywhere except behind the stove). That would fix the lack of balance you mentioned and make the place seem less like a claustrophobic cabinet show room.

This is a kitchen with a wall of windows that seems as if it would fit in with the style of your house as you've described it:
{{gwi:2142285}}

Perhaps you will find it to be good inspiration?

Did we try this?

Islands aren't actually very 'authentic' to old world kitchens, either. A table in the middle, would be more appropriate...but islands are more popular.

What if you add a prep sink? That would give you ice, water, stone, fire. Or fridge, prep sink, counter, range. {{gwi:2142286}}From Kitchen plans

A small peninsula will look great, IMHO...think about a counter top that will bring in the 'old world' charm. Maybe marble? :) {{gwi:2142287}}From Kitchen ideas

And small prep sink...

This time I tried to move and change as little of the structure as possible. It is contingent on your being able to add a back door to the dining room (or any other room -- up to you). That is the sole mandatory structural work.

There is one window that would be advisable to add, but you don't have to.

{{gwi:2142288}}

You have two good long stretches of counter where people can work without crossing paths, you have seating for more than three, and you have a pantry.

And though I did not change the walls around, by swinging the bulk of the kitchen to the back of the house, the current placement of the dining room door becomes less awkward -- it is now a straight walk from the kitchen to the dining room.

The window seat/banquette is meant to be something like this:

{{gwi:2142289}}

{{gwi:2142290}}

{{gwi:2142291}}

{{gwi:2142292}}

{{gwi:2142293}} (This one is a slight bay window, but just picture it straight.)

And here is how that type of window seat looks in a more historic, old house (though this one doesn't have a table -- you'll have to imagine):

{{gwi:2142294}}

The window seat could also be L-shaped with a smaller table if you'd rather:

{{gwi:2142295}}

{{gwi:2142296}}

{{gwi:2142297}}

{{gwi:2142298}}

This post was edited by Jillius on Mon, Dec 8, 14 at 13:29

Wow, you guys have given us a ton to think about. We really appreciate the effort you've all been putting in for us. Man o man. And thanks too for all those inspirational photos, Jillius. Very helpful.

Hi Jillius. In your last post you show two graph paper drawings with subtle difference between them. You move the window above the sink slightly to center it and add an L to the yellow box in the corner. What do those yellow boxes represent, upper cabs? Just want to be sure I understand your thought process between the two.

If I were to go with something like this I'd have to put the back door where you're showing the prep sink, loosing that sink and just having the one by the DW. Do you think that would kill the plan?

Yes, they are upper cabinets. I thought the corner cabinet alone might look odd, so I was mulling it over and just gave you two options. I think the first one would probably look better.

If you swap the prep sink for a back door, it doesn't kill the plan, but it creates two points of inefficiency:

1) When you are taking things out of the fridge, you will be carrying armfuls of things directly from the fridge to the counter between the sink and stove so you can wash and chop them. This is a longer walk than ideal.

Or you will just turn around and drop them on the more convenient counter opposite the fridge, then pick the items all up again and carry them to the sink to wash and chop. This two-part process would be just one if the prep sink were adjacent to the most convenient to the fridge landing zone.

As it happens, I built this inefficiency into my kitchen as well. It has always been my habit to gather all my ingredients from the fridge in one trip before I start cooking, so it is a very minor inconvenience to me if the fridge is farther away than ideal. In fact, I prefer it because snack-seekers who stand in front of the fridge weighing options for eons are then not in my way when I'm cooking.

However, if you the type of cook who grabs stuff from the fridge repeatedly while you cook, you may find this inefficiency to be hugely annoying.

2) When you have two cooks, you will be sharing a sink. So you will have to wait at times or be disrupted/moved by another cook. And the cook working at the counter between the stove and back door will carrying dripping stuff from the sink back to their station.

Just think about how you cook and see if these compromises are things you can live with. We all have some non-ideal things in our kitchens -- it's just the point of gardenweb that you get to choose which ones you end up with, rather than discovering them the hard way after install and finding that they are things you just can't live with.

One thing you might do to ameliorate the second problem is move the main sink a foot or two farther from the corner. It will make your banquette smaller, but it will also mean that someone can be working away on the counter between the stove and main sink, and they won't be crowded by or need to move out if the way of a second cook who walks up to use the main sink.

I like Jillius' layout, but I think there'd be too much traffic in the aisle b/w the fridge and range wall. People going to or coming from either the DR or back door will use that aisle in addition to anyone using the fridge and doing prep.

What if you move the back door across the front entry, have cleanup across the DR door and banquet, prep and cooking on the other wall.

In this arrangement,

1-fridge-prep wouldn't be as close as Julius' layout,
2- if another cook uses the main sink for prep there'd be quite a long distance to cover to reach the range,
3- traffic from the front and back doors would pass in front of the fridge (which is true for a lot of other alternative layouts)

but main prep area and cleanup area seem to be free of heavy traffic.

( I'm not sure what happened to the column(?) you had in tour initial layouts, so I left that out.)

It would really help to have a full floor layout here to judge whether people walking in a back door where I placed the prep sink would naturally walk through the kitchen or the the dining room to get through the rest of the house.

It just depends what is on the other side of the kitchen vs. the other side of the dining room.

It is very possible to walk from a back door there into the dining room without entering the main work areas.

And I have been presuming that the dining room has at least one other entrance between it and a hall or the living room or something like that -- presuming that through the kitchen is not the only access to the dining room. Meaning that only people preparing food in the kitchen would have reason to enter the dining room from the kitchen. Everybody else would use a different route (and not disturb the cooks). But your full plan of the whole floor could show something different.

And the placement of the back door is a question. We'd need to see where the garage is relative to this all so we know where you are coming from with groceries. And if the back door is not where you enter with groceries, then I would really put some serious effort into finding a place to put it that is not in the kitchen, but we can't offer suggestions without seeing other rooms, etc.

Jillius posted some VERY cute banquette photos. They're such a cozy addition to the kitchen, but it will take up a little more space.

What you probably need to decide is if you want seating (or even a table) in the kitchen. If you do, then is it worth it to make a few structural changes?

Here's an idea similar to your first layout, with the banquette added (as Jillius has it). I made the window over the banquette a bit smaller and increased the size of the window over the sink. The back door is moved to the left, closer to the very nice pantry/display cabinets that you have in the original drawings.

Only you know if the seating is worth the extra expense. I also added a prep sink by the fridge...which isn't necessary but might be handy. Just a few ideas :) {{gwi:2142299}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Mon, Dec 8, 14 at 21:17