I can't get your link to work - it takes me to my flickr page.

marty, I didn't read your whole saga yet but your flickr link is broken. It links to your organization site, but you need it to link to a photo, otherwise when I click on it, I get my set organization page for my photos. As a rule, your name should be in the link so that it leads others (not signed in as you) to your photos.

Without the photos I'm having a hard time seeing what the issues at hand are.

Thanks for the heads-up. Here's a photobucket link:

Here is a link that might be useful: DW/Range wars

I think I'd repair the range that you have.

Another option which I don't like and which is far from ideal, would be a cooktop w/ an oven below but have the oven opening on the other side of the peninsula. Don't know how that would work w/ a downdraft cooktop though. And, if you use an oven a lot (which I don't) then I wouldn't consider it at all. Seriously, I hate the idea but am throwing it out there anyway.

Not understanding how the nook relates to the rest of the kitchen.

Have to say that I'd think very strongly about just repairing the range & saving $$$ towards a more comprehensive makeover. It's a cute kitchen with a lot of charm & I love that window but the fact is that the space has so many limitations (like the positioning of the doorway) that really handicap you in trying to fit modern appliances in there.

Wishing you good luck & hoping that someone else will come up with a fantastic idea.

I don't know what you have above your range as far as a vent and cabinetry, but would it be possible to move the narrow lower cab to the left of the range, and move the upper cabinets to work with the new lower configuration? If you had that 12" or so as a buffer between the two doors, it looks (at least from the photos) that the DW would clear the range handle.

I think my second choice would be to have someone make a new handle, even it if would void the warranty. It would drive me nuts to have the sink off center, and adding in two 18" DWs would be a pretty pricey option. I think if I were going to spend extra money, I'd go for a cooktop and put a wall oven somewhere else.

I have almost that same arrangement in my current kitchen (with a small lazy Susan in the corner) and it drives me nuts. I feel for you! Good luck with your decision! :o)

I really appreciate the input.

I've added a photo that gives you a view of the relationship of the peninsula, the overhead cabinets, and the breakfast nook seating area. As you can see, we can't open the range on the other side without losing the seating area. We could vent through the upper cabs, at some expense, but would still have the range-handle problem if we tried to put an oven under the cooktop.

As for the repair suggestion, we've spent 13 months without an oven in the long saga of trying to get it repaired. Even if we poured more money, time and cortisol down that hole, I fear it would be at best a very temporary solution.

We can put an oven on the wall opposite the breakfast table, though there's a traffic pattern there.

I'm not sure how long we'll be in this house (we moved in more than 30 years ago as young marrieds.) While we don't want to spend the time and money to do an entire renovation, I'd like to solve this problem in a way that would keep the house saleable in the next 5-10 years, which means having an oven and full dishwasher.

So ideas where to put the oven on the breakfast nook cabinet wall if I go the cooktop route on the peninsula? I'm leaning toward the two dishwasher idea just to simplify everything else, but realize that the cooktop/ oven elsewhere idea might be wiser.

(FWIW, I've noticed that the sink actually isn't on center under the window.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Marytw's Range Wars

Happy new year, Mary!

I think your cabinets are charming! I don't think an oven in the breakfast nook will help saleability. It's weird and buyers hate being confused. Preserving the charm should be top priority since the rest of what you're putting into the kitchen will have aged by the time you sell, but charm endures.

I like worldmom's suggestion about moving the range over if it'll work.

The design of the sink cabinet and the cabinetry to its left is a big part of the charm. If it were up to me, I'd just get the 18" dishwasher and be done with it, but those tend to be expensive too. But then I'd also pop for the custom panel front to recharmify the right of the sink. And maybe put an open area in the corner for baking sheets, oven racks, and pot holder hooks.

Find a used one?

Get an 18" dishwasher. Hire a good carpenter to create a new wider filler.

Move the dw to the other side of the sink, buy new counter tops because the sink will move.

What's on the other side (where the bananas are on a wooden surface)? Is it possible to put even a 24" oven over there? There are downdraft cooktops you might be able to use.

What about getting a different brand range without a downdraft that will fit in the space and forgo venting for now or think about putting in a hood above the range if possible.

Aha, Plllog and Worldmom! I had misunderstood Worldmom's suggestion completely. I thought she was referring cabinetry currently on the LEFT side of the range.

Are you suggesting that I remove the lower cabinet to the right of the range entirely, so the range is at the end of the peninsula with more work space to its left? I've wondered about that. If it worked in terms of ducting, it probably would work for one of the Jenn Airs in terms of handle clearance. What do you think about losing the workspace, though -- I'm right handed and use that bread board area for EVERYTHING. In terms of convenience I'd rather put in a cooktop there and an oven somewhere else, or an 18" dishwasher, rather than give up that put-the-pan-and-ingredients space.

It also puts two burners very close to all traffic patterns.

The 18" DW is pretty tempting -- that would solve the range problem without the need for any other changes. But how much do you think it would affect saleability later?

I've posted photos of the rest of the kitchen so you brainiacs can see where I might stick an oven. Sorry for poor quality but had to use my cellphone camera.

Thanks for comments on charm -- it's what I want to preserve. The DW will be paneled for sure, to match the rest of the cabinetry.

Here is a link that might be useful: Marytw's Range Wars with rest of kitchen pics

bmorepanic (did I spell that right?)

I'm thinking about how to handle the DW space if I put in the 18" (clearly the cheapest of all solutions since all the plumbing is already there). You said "hire a good carpenter to create a new wider filler." Can you tell me what you mean by a "wider filler"? I was think along the lines that plllog suggests, that I use the space to the right of the DW for tray etc storage. Or just put a panel over it to cover the space.

Weissman,

ALL ranges now have wider handles, so even if I switch it out, I'm probably not going to find one that will work with the DW. So I can do a hood, but still not use the DW.

As for venting, when my current range fan isn't working, I really can't use the cooktop for much of anything hot. (I don't deep fat fry, and my ceilings are pretty high, but we get lots of smoke when I'm, say, browning meat.)

I'm going to put a ceiling fan in the middle of the kitchen ceiling, which should help some.

If you are looking for a solution that doesn't make major changes - switch out the 24 inch d/w for an 18 inch. Don't bother with the second one - it isn't going to be worth the loss of cabinet space.

You could also switch out the sink - get a smaller, single bowl sink which would give you more room to move the d/w over.

I may be saying the same thing as bmorepanic and others, but here's my .02 anyway...

What is the clearance between the R side of the counter to the R of the stove and the wall with the two closets on it, and the clearance from that same counter to the counter on the other side of the bananas (the end of the one perpendicular to the fridge)? In the picture, it looks like there might be ample clearance to add a 6" filler to the L of the stove and keep your counter space to the R of the stove. If you are talking about re-working cabinets anyway to add another DW, it seems it would be less $$$ to add to the L of the stove than to change the cabinets to allow for 2 DWs.

I agree, I wouldn't want burners in the path of traffic. The placement of the door to the garage and bath makes that more difficult. Is the bath directly behind the fridge? Or would it be possible to move the fridge elsewhere and make the path straight through to the garage rather than diagonally?

That's probably way more than you were thinking of doing, but just throwing it out there. Our best ideas came from ignoring limits temporarily ($, space, plumbing and wiring) and working backwards from there. We eventually came back down to earth, but thinking that way showed us some possibilities we hadn't thought of before.

I like the 18" DW as a low impact solution if that size works for you.

What is the depth of the current range? Bosch makes one that is 25-5/8--not a downdraft though.

Dacor's smooth top induction has a recessed handle and is only 23" (and some-odd) deep.

An insert of this type could be used as a low-visual impact way to vent through the existing cabinets.

Rather than put an oven in the breakfast nook wall of cabinets, put a range or oven on the wall where the toaster oven is? You'd have plenty of workspace to the side of it. If you do a range, you gain workspace at the peninsula and use up counter space that looks like doesn't get worked at now (used for storage).

Jsweenc,

I measure the floorspace between the range island and the wall with the closets, and it's only 29". It's a major passageway through the house, and I don't think we'd want it any narrower. For one thing, when you're entering the kitchen from the dining room and heading for the table, you can just walk through without bumping a wall. (I'm a talented wall-bumper; sometimes when I get up in the middle of the night I can hit BOTH sides of the bedroom door. Not my girth, but my balance.)

Unfortunately the bathroom is indeed directly behind the refrigerator wall.

I know you're right about thinking outside the box. We hadn't planned on any demolition but I realize that it might be better in the long run to move some stuff now rather than to develop a solution that works for us but makes the house harder to sell in the future.

One fact: we live on the edge of a university and our street has gained some student rentals. Sometimes I wonder whether worrying about the next purchaser is a big waste of time -- it may be someone who wants to buy the house to put a lot of students in it. When I think of it that way, it makes me realize that we might be better off putting in a smaller dishwasher and leaving it up to the next buyer to sort everything out.

Palimpsest,

Thanks for suggesting other ranges -- the dimension I need to find is back-of-range to front-of-handle. I'll see what Bosch's is.

Can you tell me more about the insert you have in the picture? It looks like it's on a floor -- what is it and how would it work?

The vent insert is mounted on the underside of the upper cabinet.

Broan and Faber are two companies that make these. They each make one that is just small enough to squeeze into a conventional depth upper cabinet. The benefits of these are, relatively low price and low impact on the existing configuration. To place a conventional hood in your kitchen would mean that you either mount it below the existing cabinets (which would be too low) or you would have to remove part of the upper cabinets.

With these inserts, the only thing that shows is that bottom face plate. The guts all fit within the cabinet.

I would go with one of your suggestions -buy a single basin sink a little smaller than you have now (4 inches or so) and move the dishwasher down to the left that amount. The sink will feel HUGE because it's a single basin. (you said you want a 2 basin sink - maybe get one with one side smaller and the overall width would be smaller). The sink isn't centered on the window now but would look more centered with a smaller basin. Like others said - to the right of the dishwasher have open sheet pan storage. You would need a carpenter (or your husband if he's handy - to modify the sink cabinet but from the pictures it doesn't look too difficult. You could buy a sink base from Ikea, pull it out the required depth and modify some doors. Since you're repainting all the cabinets it will not be noticeable) My sister and one tenant have 18" dishwashers. They're expensive and don't hold that much. I wouldn't give up all that dishwasher space and I think that would be a turnoff to potential buyers - even if it will be rented to students. (I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of the 18" dishwasher in our student rental) I think the extra money to modify the sink cabinet may come out close to the same as a 18" dishwasher.

We're renting while renovating and we have an 18" junky old Kenmore that could go toe-to-to with the high end Bosch I had in my old house in terms of cleaning. I couldn't imagine how it would ever work, but I cook every night and it's been fine. I don't even scrape or rinse because I'm not of the generation that does that (at my mom's, I can never tell if the stuff in the DW is clean or dirty she "pre-rinses" them so completely!) I do have to hand wash my pots and pans, but I probably should do that anyway.

I think the benefit of installing an 18" dishwasher is that you can add in a significant filler piece that will allow you greater depth on the range handle.

I agree that future buyers will "make do" with a smaller dishwasher before they'll be willing to wander the Earth looking for the oven. That's why I nixed an original kitchen plan for my house that had a 27" SubZero - paneled!- in a different room.

You know, I think the smaller single sink may be the answer. I used a split sink with one really small side over the holidays and didn't like it. Thought I didn't want a single sink but since everyone loves them I think I'll be pleasantly surprised. Fate is dragging me into the 21st century at last.

I have a good contractor who's doing all the work and I imagine his guys can figure out the cabinetry for the DW move without too much trouble.

Never thought of the wandering-the-earth point, but it makes great sense. I'm kind of relieved to think that I won't have to give up my precious counter space near the fridge to a wall oven.

As to the Bosch alternative, Palimpsest, thanks for the vent info. I'll find out tomorrow (I hope) whether Bosch makes a range that is actually shallower than the Jenn Air (which it would be if it's only 25+ inches from back to front, including the handle.) Is the vent you showed me recirculating or would I need an outside duct?

I'm really tickled at all the help everyone's given me -- where else could someone go to get this kind of thoughtfulness and expertise anytime, much less on New Years Day?!

What about a dw drawer installed below a regular drawer? The handles would clear each other and you could keep the plumbing in place.I don't know if that would work with how many people are living with you.Your kitchen is wonderful though, lots of beautiful features!

Annie.zz,

I just saw a July message from you about slide-in ranges you were looking into/thinking about. Mind telling me what you finally picked, and why? I was going to ask you on your thread but then figured I might find you here.

Ok, folks, I've found one or two ranges (not downdraft) that might fit into my cabinet without crowding the DW too much. (One is a KA.) So I *could* put in a venting system and use a different range.

I realize there's no way to predict how much it would end up costing me, but is it clear that paying to get the undersink cabinetry rebuilt to move the DW to the left would be significantly less expensive than venting through the upper cabinets? If they're about the same, then I'm thinking that perhaps I should go with the vent to get rid of the whole downdraft problem.

>

My cabinets are 31" above my countertops (and gas burners would be perhaps 1 inch closer.) I've found the Broan E661 5" hood: could I safely and effectively mount that below the cabinet? (I'm 5' 3", & DH doesn't cook.)

Usually the back of these hoods are not finished and are sometimes part of carcass that helps mount the hood. I suppose it depends on what the back of the back of this hood looks like as to whether it would work.

I don't know about the height thing, but you could add an apron in the back to cover the back of the hood, etc., and look good on the other side.

One more option:
Go on Craigslist and see if you can find a used range that can fit in that space.

for example:

Wanted working "whatever brand" "XYZ" range. Will pick up!

If you find one working, then you are good for a few months/years before you have to make "expensive" decision...

Just a thought...

Hadn't thought about the back -- thanks for the heads up.

Anyone have an idea of safety of 5" hood below a cabinet, when cabinet is 31" from cooktop below?

If you don't get a good answer here (I don't know), try the appliance forum.

That would put the range hood at a 25" height above the cooktop. Many codes or specs ask for 18" minumum to a flammable surface for an electric cooktop, 24" minimum to a flammable surface for a gas cooktop. You still have 31" because the cabinet is the flammable surface, the hood is not.

That model specs a minimum of 24" above cooktop, so you are good there. It sticks out 21", so 8+ inches beyond the upper cabinet face. at 61" above the floor (36 + 25), are you going to bang your head on that? If not, youre probably good.

Palimpsest,

Thanks for doing the measurement for me.

Our upper cabinets are 19" deep, but I assume we'd need to position the hood to stick out in front more than just the 2" in order to catch enough smoke from the front burners.

I'm sure I will bang my head, since I've never met a household surface that I couldn't find a way to bang. One of my toes screams a warning every time I turn one particular corner, I've stubbed it so many times there.

My poor DH certainly will bang his head on his way to the sink.

Ah, one of the advantages of the downdraft -- no head banging.

Guess I'd better check various hoods to see if there's one with a curved corner.