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canishel

Please help with layout

15 years ago

I've read your awesome GW advice for years. Now I need your help with my layout. Mindset problems; can't think outside the box. It's time to replace the builder's grade cabinets and countertops. I don't know when the remodeling will take place, but I need a while to consider and walk through changes.

To answer some of the Read Me list suggestions:

I'd like to incorporate a single-sized wall oven (e.g., GE single double oven) at a height for visibility and easier access, and increase counter and storage spaces.

One aging cook with occasional "helper", no kids (unless you count dogs), minimal concern for resale.

Entertaining needs restricted to using the table and current longest counter as a buffet. DW used only for entertaining (~ two month intervals). Separate dining room, don't want to open the kitchen to the dining room.

Can't enlarge exterior wall because of deck and roof issues. Two-story house over crawl space. Crawl space very low at one end of kitchen (think snake-slink space).

Preferred appliances: standard DW, standard depth 36" wide frig (~20 cu.ft.), 30" gas rangetop, 36" hood venting to the outside, countertop MW, 30" wall oven.

Current and proposed layouts follow. BTW, many thanks to Buehl for her info about using online graph paper and Powerpoint. I tried using 3-D software and got bogged down.

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The current kitchen works OK except that I can't open the frig door enough to open one veg drawer fully and the recycling area is cramped. The half-bath is handy: close to the garage/workshop, contains first aid equipment, no other place to put it. Love the walk-in pantry because I can view and retrieve inventory at one spot. Love the range in the peninsula; can stare out through the den window to watch birds while stirring roux and other time-consuming range top items, the vent-hood provides light for the prep area, can usually time prep to coincide with cooking, thereby eliminating bowl(s) to wash. Cookbooks are readily accessible. Having the tall cabinet next to peninsula end is handy for blender, food processor, hand pasta maker (hooks onto free end of counter); the problem is the interfering wall cab over the peninsula end.

The narrow diagonal aisle between the peninsula and the trapezoidal base cab hasn't posed a problem yet, but wouldn't mind it being a little wider. I can roll a wheelchair through it now, plus I can hold on to the countertops if needed. If the aisle were much wider, I couldn't stretch my arms enough to hold onto the counter and still have the strength to support myself. While I'm not handicapped, I've had enough injuries to test the layout. Desk is handy; will keep landline because the satellite reception is iffy around here. Dog feeding station is around the movable island. Yes, I sometimes kick the water bowl, but moving it elsewhere would result in more spillage.

The proposed layout switches the pantry with the recycling area. There's no room in the garage for recycling. Since there's no recycling pickup, I go to the convenience center that is miles away, hence the need for larger volume containers. The frig door would open enough since the frig door hinge has a stop in it anyway. Switching pantry from walk-in to step-in doesn't lose very much pantry shelf space (can't find my calculations). I don't think that I'd miss the window since that wall faces west (used as light source only). I hope under cab lighting will provide enough task lighting. The snack bar is added because it fits, alleviates traffic around the frig, and shortens the distance to the den and living room (not shown) and the distance from the deck. The mini-frig would give more room in the standard frig (infrequent grocery shopper). No sink in the snack bar because it would take up space, can keep bottled water in the mini-frig. Upper wall cabs change from existing 30"h to 39"h (?)plus thin crown moulding and UCL bar.

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I don't like the abrupt open space next to the desk in the proposed area, but I think the turning circle into the foyer would be compromised if a 24" deep counter were put there permanently. Don't need the existing bookshelves anymore or shelves for knickknacks. Also, I might need to move the little island there occasionally.

I'm not sure about the pantry door conflict with the garage and half-bath accesses, but I can't think of anything else to do. The dimensions are OK; I hung a sheet and measured distances including doorknobs for interference.

I haven't made space for a junk drawer because I've never needed one. What do you keep in your junk drawer? Maybe I have one and don't know it. General cleaning tools are in a utility room. Repair tools are in the garage/workshop.

Overall, the proposed plan solves the wall oven placement, gains only about two feet of real kitchen counter although the plan clears some of the existing prep space (moved microwave), and gains enough (?) storage space. I say enough because of the switch from cabs with doors to cabs with drawers, plus the snack bar. I thought about increasing counter depth along the long wall from 25 1/2" to 28 1/2" but decided the garage access would be too limited. The snack bar solves some of the entertaining needs.

So, all of this may be TMI, but I wanted to cover as much as I could.

Any criticisms, comments, or corrections to my misconceptions will be appreciated.

Comments (6)

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    It seems pretty good, since a lot of it works for you already and you are fixing some of the problems pretty well. You could try a different type of door on the pantry? Or could you be comfortable leaving it open, or with a curtain?

    I'm a little concerned about those at your snack bar needing to access a sink, so coming in the kitchen anyway...To wash hands, wipe the counter, etc.

    It's too bad that most of your usable counter space seems to be where you don't really need it. Any thoughts about moving the oven to that other side of the kitchen? Will it be too much in the traffic pattern?

    You have a shorter than normal landing space because of a deeper than standard upper over a taller than standard base cabinet for the oven. You might want to mock that up somehow and see if you can see to the back of the counter and access it well, or if the upper will block too much.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Rhome, thanks so much for reviewing this. You've raised some points with which I've been hassling. So here are my arguments. Please rebut if you want.

    Re: pantry door
    Bifold doors take up too much side-opening space when open, and are a pain to close completely. Same for accordion-type. A curtain would be difficult to keep clean (think dirty hands and dirty/dusty clothing from the workshop), and also would get in the way of a step stool used for reaching the higher shelves. The solid door allows attachment of door shelves/racks (term?, the wire thing that screws into the door and holds foil, plastic wrap, and other skinny things). I need that door rack. But I'll try not using the one in the present pantry and see if I can get by without it. BTW, those wire slide-out thingies that slip onto fixed shelves would take up shelf space that, in my case, would be better used for foodstuffs.

    Re: snack bar sink
    I agree for the need for a sink, but don't want to give up counter space and under counter drawer space. For hand-washing, we can use the half-bath or the utility quasi-mud room (off the den. There's another entrance into the house from the deck.) For cleaning, I might use one shelf in a wall cab for a spray bottle and towels and keep a small canister on the counter for trash? Dirty glassware would just be left there until I get around to moving them to the sink. I don't want to extend the wall to the den so that a longer counter would fit. Making the wall longer would obstruct the view and screw up the den-living room symmetry. Extending the outside wall is not an option. I need to think about this.

    Re: oven
    I put the oven where I did so that I could watch what's going on in there while I'm cooking. The height is a compromise among bending over, microwave reach, and frig landing space. If the oven were placed at standard counter height, I may as well get a range instead of a wall oven. If the oven were placed at a higher height and along the long wall, the counter would be broken up, I couldn't watch what was burning, wouldn't have the counter space for making and rolling dough (for example), enough landing space for sorting groceries. The mixer is on that long wall and I want to leave it there instead of putting it away when I'm finished with it. BTW, a toaster oven is also on that long counter which I hope to retire if and when I get the single/double oven. The toaster oven has given me some insight into problems associated with having an oven on that counter/wall.
    As far as traffic pattern is concerned, there may be no good place for the oven? Ordinarily, there's not much traffic in the kitchen except for the dogs. Anyone I'm feeding would just have to wait until the oven door is closed to get by.

    Re: landing space
    The base cabinet is ~27" deep, or else 24" deep and pulled away from the wall so that the counter is ~28 1/2" deep. I need the 15" deep wall cab to house items that are, say, 13"-14" deep, and to hold the microwave (small countertop size).
    The ~12"high landing space is high enough for frig items. The 12"height takes into account the UCL rail/strip. The microwave is elevated to avoid hitting what's on the counter when the microwave door is open.

    Dunno. Another difficult choice I'm debating for the frig wall is cabinet depth. Use 24" deep cabs and pull them from the wall so that the frig looks built-in, or bite the cost bullet and use ~27" deep cabs and gain storage space. I'm leaning towards the latter.

    Please continue to make suggestions. If you want, I will provide vertical sketches for usage in the proposed layout.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Apologies. Forgot to mention that the oven and trapezoidal base cabs are ~38 1/2" high.
    I thought that was on the drawing, but it wasn't.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I think the shelf over the trapezoidal base looks ok in elevation but in the plan that overhanging corner looks like a shoulder banger because it hangs over the lower by about three inches. I would shorten it to keep it within the confines of the base.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Hi Palimsest.
    Thanks for noticing that.
    I changed the width of the shelf cabinet to 18". That's a bit narrower than it needs to be. Alas, I will have to get rid of some cookbooks to fit in the space and have a blank wall of ~6", but, as the frosted cereal says, "safety first".
    Should I also narrow the base cab to, say, 21" wide? The sum of linear widths of all the cabs and plywood walls is 112 1/2", very close to the 113" length of the wall. That assumes the measurement is accurate and the edge of countertop would fit OK, even though the overhang would be less than 1 1/2".

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I would narrow it. You are also going to have to allow for door trim around the pocket door and non-squareness of the other corner and a small filler next to those tall cabinets at least.

    You probably have some cookbooks that are seasonal. They could be stored elsewhere.