Espalier = lots of work. Is it really necessary, or just cool?

Lots of heirlooms in there. They don't necessarily taste better because they are old, and anyway, they often have weird characteristics that would not be tolerated in a modern release, such as biennial bearing, slow to come into production, etc.

Not that familiar with all your varieties, but be sure you assess their vigor individually before settling on one rootstock. A tree with less vigor might need something with a little more oomph than b.9

Where you are - which you do not appear to be stating here - is always critical to which apple cultivars are likely to succeed.

im not familiar with any of those and im sure you already know this, but make sure you check the ripening dates of all of them. Ideally you want all your ripening dates spread out, so you have fruit all the time instead of a truckload at once

I would not say that it is a necessity but smaller trees equals more varieties. The varieties are not set in stone I just tried to pick the more vigorous growing ones to go on the b9. Am open to suggestions on varieties and rootstocks. I live in Southeast mich. Some charts say zone 6 some say 5. Of the varieties above there is a mix of harvest dates.

My advise is to ask the growers here what varieties they recommend. If you like the oldies that is fine, but mix in some performers too. New growers overlook Jonothan because of their grocery store experience with it. Absolutely not the same as growing it yourself. It is an old variety that has stood the test of time.

Im open to suggestions. I'm interested in vigorous varieties. They do not have to be heirloom

Espaliers are NOT more work. It is the same amount of work but being done at different times of the season. Once established you can practically prune with a hedge trimmer. ( I don't)

1. Easier to spot disease as it is truly open.
2. Potentially less fungal susceptibility as air-flow through the tree is unhindered.
3. Spraying is MUCH easier and takes alot less time.
4. MUCH MUCH easier to install protective netting.
5. All bearing branches are exposed to full sunlight.
6. Production- With six foot tall, four scaffold trees planted 12 feet apart each tree with will have 48 linear feet of fully sunlight exposed bearing branches. If you add another tier and 18 inches in height you get 64 feet.
I suspect that is more than a 10-12 foot center leader or open tree.
7. All this in much less space

AND they are KOOOOOOL to see.

Mike

Can anyone name some vigorous varieties that are cold hardy?

I'm with koko on this...too many heirlooms in there for my liking. I'm only saying that because you are seeking suggestions; you should most definitely grow whatever you like.
Blondee is an interesting variety and it is commercially planted, but it seems to me it has an achiles...I just cannot remember what it is...fireblight...CAR...something.
I like the Liberty choice because I suspect it will make a very good espalier tree.
Personally, aside from Liberty and maybe Blondee I don't like any of the other choices (for me).
Consider an early apple like William's Pride or Zestar. Both have good track records

Bud 9 with Liberty/Jonagold. Liberty bears well every year. Jonagold tends to be bear well every other year. Taste. wise for me- jonagold amazing. Liberty somewhat boring. And a bug magnet.

Looks like heirlooms are not the way to go in the apple world. I will keep searching and researching the the varieties mentioned here.

If you go to the online sites like Raintree, Stark Bros, Orange Pippin, Adams, (and dozens more mentioned here - just look up many threads regarding nurseries) you should find descriptions of all aspects and properties of different varieties that are readily available.

Everyone's palette differs. My suggestion is to plant what you'd like to eat and which is compatible with your climate.

Vigor is one of the less important attributes for a home gardener as no doubt you will be fighting an endless battle to keep growth and productivity in check.

Don't stress too much.
Just my thoughts.

Mike

I'm planning to train 2 pear trees into an arch over an garden entrance - so sort of similar to espalier. When I was looking at varieties, disease resistance, particularly to fire blight was at the top of my list. I just didn't want to have a nice shape developing and suddenly have to do a lot of pruning that would ruin it just to keep blight from spreading or even killing the trees.

I'm not sure blight is as much of an issue for you there, but that might be something to keep in mind. I didn't look at them all, but just looking at Red Summer Rambo it looked pretty susceptible.

Of course if you're going for the espalier just for some of the other benefits and aren't as worried about growing perfectly symmetrical tress, this may not be as much of a concern for you as it was for me.

The longer I've done this (I'm still a noob) the more I've come to believe that nothing suceeds like success. Investigate which varieties are tried and true in your area and make sure you have one.

It's good to have a couple proven winners, but one of the reasons to grow your own is to be able to sample varieties you wouldn't normally be able to get. But there will likely be some problems along the way- for example, don't plan on a consistently large crop of Ashmead's Kernal. But what you get should be pretty good (strongly flavored with high sugars and acid).

In a zone 6 you can grow most varieties, and what you really need to think about is taste, ripening sequence, reliability of cropping and the general fussiness of any given cultivar, which includes susceptibility to all kinds of issues from disease resistance to calcium deficiencies. Here's a list based on my personal preferences of reasonably easy apples to grow.

Most on this list would probably do well where you are because they are widely adapted and you are in my zone.

Early types,from first to last on date of ripening- Pristine, Williams Pride, Zestar (one of my favorites for flavor), Sansa (sweet lovers delight), Redfree,

Mid types Macintosh (extremely reliable in your zone but not to everyone's taste) Gala (a boring but reliable replacement to Mac around here) Daybreak Fuji (If you like your sweets it is easier to manage than late Fuji), Jonathon (I love this apple, gets some fireblight though), Crimson Crisp ( an excellent new disease resistant variety- extremely easy to manage), Macoun (difficult to train, great New England apple- best apples on least vigorous upright shoots second year of shoots life).

Late (these are the ones you will be eating into spring so you'll need more of them), Kidd's Orange Red (most cooperative Cox type, but sweeter), Golden Delicious (the older strains can be extremely good, reliable and easy to manage- if you like sweets), Grimes Golden, Roxbury Russet (relatively easy russet type) Freedom (disease resistant Red Delicious type without the carboard skin of some of them), Jonagold (sweet with a bit of complexity), Crimson Topaz (ditto Crimson Crisp), Northern Spy (tough to train, takes forever to bear, but very distinctive tart), Cameo (easy to manage, excellent sweet type, seems to tend to biennial bearing), Suncrisp, Stayman Winesap (super reliable, nice quintessential apple), Winesap, Arkansas Black, Granny Smith, (if you leave it on the tree into Nov. it is better than what you can buy from Washington).

And my favorite late, and in fact, overall home orchard apple- Goldrush (tart off the tree, mellows and sweetens in storage, still crisp in March out of common storage, early bearing, easy to mange but somewhat biennial). Needs full sun to ripen properly in Z6 most years and reach its full potential.

There are other awesome apples that I've had some difficulty with that might be much easier to grow on more dwarfing rootstocks than the 111 and 7 I usually use, including Ashmead's Kernel, Thompkins King, and Golden Russet.

Easier than espalier, would be to train dwarfs on a single conduit stake to a spindle type form. It has all the advantages of espalier without the necessity of complicated support and comes into productivity sooner because much less growth removal is required. Better production per tree as well.

If you don't know the kinds of apples you really like go to the largest nearby farmers market you can get to and find growers that produce a wide range of varieties. Ask to buy one of each and take notes.

Thanks to everyone.

Harvestman, are you referring to what growers call tall spindle training? I have been looking into that method also but have a very good location along my privacy fence to do espalier training. Seems like the tall spindle method would need more room than espalier?

What types of rootstocks are used for the spindle training method?

As usual, excellent and complete information from harvestman.

'Goldrush' is one of those varieties that requires extra-vigorous rootstock; at least it did for me.

Yes, tall spindle is one of them and recommended by Cornell. Here's some nice photos and charts.

If you already have a wall then that is perfect for espalier, especially a south wall- that's where I'd plant the Goldrush.

Koko is dead on about rootstocks for GR- it grows on 111 like vigorous varieties do on M26. With an existing wall nothing is probably more efficient than certain forms of espalier- a fan type is more efficient than something absolutely horizontal because it is not as constrictive and encouraging of useless wood that must be removed. Horizontal scaffolds encourage excessive upright water sprouting.

Spacing should take scion vigor as seriously as rootstock.

Here is a link that might be useful: photos of cornell growing systems

nice looking tree malus

Thx Appleseed. Just hit it and the Cham. obtusa on either side with Plantskydd as the deer are now coming right up to house.

I really appreciate all of the feedback but I have to be honest, my head is spinning with all the different rootstocks. I do understand the basics but do not want to make the wrong choice of rootstocks for the variety.

Whether doing Tall Spindle or espalier is it better to buy bare root or containerized?

Buy bare root and find out what rootstocks are available.

Here is a link that might be useful: rootstocks

Those are great names from Hman. Love William's Pride and GR. I have Empire on B9 and it's a great tree with a simple stake--very productive and resistant.

I almost listed Empire- kids (and many adults) seem to love that apple, for one thing, and it's pretty easy to manage. My list is by no means definitive- even for my own tastes. I could just as well have included 20 other varieties, such as Erwin Bauer or even common ones like Honeycrisp in spite of its "complications". Someone else with wide tasting experience might come up with a completely different list or descriptions. Very subjective stuff.

If I put a variety with only average vigor on a bud 9 rootstock what should I expect as far as growth goes?

If i buy a variety with only average vigor would it be best to put it on a semi dwarf rootstock such as m7 so that it will keep in pace with a very vigorous variety on a bud 9.