The oranges have gone blah because plantation farms pick there orange early to get more from their tree the next year. The fact that you live beyond the arctic circle would give the growers an excuse to ship their rejects to your area. They 'rest' on the excuse "it is because you live so far north that the oranges are not good". I say bunk. Our transportation equipment is so good that transporting to Alaska should not be a problem. I can't help you with the go broke problem. You will pay through the nose for mail order fruit. If you heat with oil, it won't cost any more than to heat with CFL's. They put out 15% of their heat in the visible light spectrum. You can grow from 5 -10 of your favorite citrus trees and get enough fruit to have treats very often but not enough to consider them a main staple of your diet.

My winter setup in Cincinnati last year.

Check the link below for my lean to greenhouse for this year.

Here is a link that might be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8-nVd3r8vw

This post was edited by poncirusguy on Fri, Dec 19, 14 at 11:17

I don't think it is the orange, it is the production method.

Growers precisely measure the amount of water nowadays so that the fruit is just acceptable enough, because their profit is higher the less water they use. Also they are not fresh off the tree. Oranges are coated with wax and other chemicals (fungicides) so they have a longer shelf life, so you don't get the wonderful citrus oils and perfume all over your fingers when you peel them...

Our Valencias and now the Cara Cara are out of this world good (not bragging--it is the climate here, nothing I have done). When our crop is all eaten I sometimes buy local fruit at the farmer's market, and from the same kind of tree they are just not as good. Then there is a fourth generation citrus guy down the road with the citrus grove his great-grandparents planted in the 19-teens and they are wonderful. You stop by and say you want 10 lbs and he goes and pulls 10 lbs off the tree for you. They are the same Valencias as the commercial groves local and my trees. Fresh, not waxed, yummmm!

Did you know that "not from concentrate" orange juice is not fresh? They extract all the citrus oils out of the juice, store the juice in huge tanks for many months, and then when it is time to package and sell, they add carefully mixed citrus oils back into the juice to add flavor. It's not the real thing and it doesn't taste like the real thing.

Also, some of it has to do with the root stock.
Back in the early and mid-20th century, most Navels were grown on Sour Orange, at least here in CA. It produced a very sweet and flavorful orange.
Unfortunately, it wasn't very disease resistant. I forget which of the many citrus plagues it was susceptible to, but long story short, they were mostly all pulled out in the late 60's and replaced with something more disease resistant. But some flavor was lost. Hoovb, your grower's trees are probably on Sour Orange root-stock.

And yeah, the growers here have to be very, very frugal with their water, it is very expensive in CA, even for farmer. It's not only for higher profits, it's so they can just stay in business period.

I really don't know why "profits" is used like it's a bad word, they need to make a living too. They should grow as a hobby just so we can have fruit?
And the profit margin on all produce is not very much, they often loose money in bad years. Fresh produce is not subsidized like corn and wheat. And they have to compete with cheaper foreign fruit, which is often subsidized by that country's government. It's not an easy business in which to make a profit.

Gary, the reason Sky Valley's oranges are so good is because they're grown on Sour Orange rootstock. Hoovb, it is the orange in this case, but all you mentioned will also come into play to affect flavor, including Sky Valley's fruits. I have an entire abandoned valencia orange orchard behind me on Sour Orange rootstock. This rootstock provides exceptional flavor, but, it has been all but wiped out back in the 50's and 60's due to Tristeza virus, which is it very susceptible. A few commercial orchards on Sour Orange will left unscathed, Sky Valley bought several of these orchards. So, commercial growers had to resort to other more resistant trifoliate rootstocks which can affect the flavor of the fruit. It will never be as sweet as what can be grown on Sour Orange.

Patty S.

So what rootstock should swede get their tree on to best match the good fruit they bought.

You will be hard pressed to find a nursery grafting to sour orange root stock. Nowadays it's just not conducive to graft a few sour orange root stock trees for home growers when wholesale nurseries can graft 1,000 trees on C35 and sell them to a farmer and the leftover 25-30 go to big box stores or get shipped out from online orders to private buyers. Swede, you can grow your own oranges that taste like the ones you used to get at the store years ago, you just have to leave it on the tree longer when it's ripe. As mentioned above, the cara cara navel orange is a superb tasting orange. If you haven't had a chance to try one, you should. That would be my suggestion to you if you want a great tasting orange to grow at home.
Evan

swede

Get yourself some grafted trees and grow outside for as long as you can and bring inside to a setup like mine above. My current setup this year should work very well for you, but it probably won't get you through January or February. You will have to bring them inside. next year the glass will be cut and fitted to the angles. Don't grow your orange trees from seed. If you go to the Canada citrus forum you can see how the real northerners do it. Click link below and jump right in.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg120457299408.html

Steve, you can't even buy Sour Orange rootstock anymore, it's just not propagated, because of its poor disease resistance. As Evan mentioned, C35 is probably one of the best of the trifoliates right now, both for size management, precociousness and taste imparted to the scion fruit. It is very good. Not as good as sour orange, and I can attest to that, backing an abandoned 157 acre valencia orange orchard all on sour orange rootstock. But, trees on C35 (or even Swingle, or Troyer/Carrizo) are still very excellent in your yard, and fruit from them will taste exceedingly better than any fruit I can purchase at the store.

Patty S.

I can't speak to the differences imparted by various rootstocks, but a dead ripe 'Washington' navel is a remarkably excellent piece of fruit. That's what they sell as Sky Valley navels. Hard to imagine a bad tasting navel that's a sport of 'Washington' at peak ripeness, either.

Clint, it is their rootstock. Trust me. This is how they go to market as "heirloom". And, these are not "sports" of the Washington Navel. This is THE original "Parent" Washington navel orange, the original cultivar from Eliza Tibbets' trees she planted in Riverside in the 1870's (only 1 is still alive, and it is still standing in the city of Riverside). All the old navel orchards that were planted after the turn of the century up to about 1950-ish were "Parent" Navels. And, a completely ripe Washington navel picked off the tree, warm from the sun is a delight. Especially if grown in our inland valleys. But any orange grown on Sour Orange is just going to be so incredibly sweet, better than anything grown on trifoliate. There are a few pockets of these old orange orchards still surviving in the state (both navel and valencia types), and if you can find them at a fruit stand, be sure to get yourself a case or two. You will see what we mean :-) There is a difference, ask any old time orange grower in the state, and they will tell you the same. The folks at the Riverside Citrus Park talk about this during their tours and presentations as well.

Patty S.

Interesting. My only point, with all other considerations aside, was that a Washington Navel or one of its sports will be a great piece of fruit when dead ripe. So if someone wanted to grow one in their backyard they would be in great shape. I will take your word for it that the fruit from the heirloom rootstocks are a cut above. That said, looks like Trader Joe's carries the Sky Valley brand of navels. Worth keeping an eye out for them come January.

Here is a link that might be useful: Food Pusher: Sky Valley Heirloom Navel Oranges

Patty Why not go with a rooted cutting. surly this would give the same sweetness a a sour orange rootstock. After all, this tree will be in a container it's whole live. My tangerine trees grow fantastic on their own roots. Perhaps I get to see what it taste like.

Steve

Steve, don't think Gary is intending on growing his own citrus. I think he's looking for other "heirloom" citrus sources to purchase. And, growing anything on its own roots in a container culture is fine, since you're not worried about in-ground issues. But, think that Gary is not looking to do that. He is looking for other, preferably less expensive sources for heirloom citrus.

And Clint, there can be a fair difference in fruit taste, based on understock - Navel oranges or other citrus cultivars. Lots of testing on that within the UC system, you can do a Google search and see. But, I agree with you regarding what comes off my trees versus what I can get in the store. There is no comparison, which is why I love growing my own citrus :-) But, my home-grown Valencias on Carrizo are not as good as the 50 year old Valencia tree's oranges on sour orange on the other side of my fence. Close, but still not as rich and sweet as those old Valencia trees that are completely neglected.

Patty S.

this is very interesting.

We have 4 of the old orchard navels, we took out the sick one this summer.

One I think might be part root stock, what would I look for if it is the old sour orange? Our trees were probably planted by 1900

Well, they would be sour orange, Kippy if they are that old, or, on own roots. Pretty hard to tell until they fruit. You'll then clearly know if you have trees on own roots or on sour orange rootstock :-)

Patty S.

The questionable one has a pair of trunks that form a V from the ground. It skipped fruiting last year so I guess I will have to wait til the crop gets a bit bigger and start slicing. :).

Merry Christmas, all of you! Thanks for the great follow up on my question about "Where, oh where, have the good oranges gone!" I've learned a lot about oranges from you guys... I just reviewed all the postings, and realized I'd overlooked HoovB's posting, which confirmed why I hate concentrated orange juice... Didn't realize it was not only just concentrated, but old, with chemicals, and the good stuff taken out!...

Oh, well!... I never buy concentrated juice myself, anyway.

Meanwhile, Besides the great help you gave me to locating other sources of good tasting oranges, my little adventure of growing a small indoor tree from seed just for amusement, is my next step. I just planted some lemon seeds from fruit I have, and that should be amusing to see what will happen.

Take care, may God's blessings be with you and your family this great holiday... Gary

OK, I now know that there is only one company so far that anybody has mentioned that uses the original Tibbets? orange rootstock, because it is more lucrative and easier to sell and modify the OTHER non sour orange stock varieties instead. Obviously the original rootstock was susceptible to the virus that wiped them out.

So, one more question!.... Do any of you know of OTHER people than Sky Valley, who are NOT sacrificing the flavor of sour orange root stock to make a profit in the other alternatives.

Surely there must be others who are STILL experimenting with the Sour Orange rootstock, perhaps to make it less susceptible to the bad viruses, or at the very least, get around the problem.

Of course, I have no problem with profit, it's a wonderful and necessary thing, but I still believe there are people out there who have a desire for quality, uniqueness, and creativity in creating a product that is superior in quality and uniqueness, over the profit motive.

Can any of you lead me to these people? SOME people must be trying out new things with the old stock...

Best Wishes, Gary
"May your New Year be successful, beyond your wildest dreams!"

Gary, I may have stumbled upon a nursery in Arizona that is still grafting to Seville sour orange root stock because it works well for them in the salt river valley near Mesa, AZ. Here is a link, you could call them and see if they can ship you a tree on the sour orange rootstock, it's worth a shot. Their website is full of good info too.
Evan

Here is a link that might be useful: Greenfield nursery

Where have Sky Valley Oranges and sour rootstock gone? ... the above posts tell you of my lust for the succulent original oranges I had when I was a kid. You friends who posted were wonderful with your information and advice for this old curmudgeon, who simply wants to go back and get those tasty oranges from his youth.

Since those old posts, I've settled on Sky Valley Oranges which do appear every late January or Early February at our local Coborn's Grocery Store, and I anticipate this every year.

This year however, the Grocery Store did not offer them! It offers a different orange, a supposedly similar heirloom orange from a company called "VINTAGE", but it is not a substitute, for SKY VALLEY, the bag even says "Vintage SWEET oranges", & they are a crappy offering.

So, back to my original question: Where can I get Sour Rootstock Oranges today, and What happened to Sky Valley Oranges!

Thanks for any help you can give me... You all are awesome!

Gary

“It is also an era dominated by industry, in which the right to make a dollar at whatever cost is seldom challenged.”

― Rachel Carson, Silent Spring

Changsha is an heirloom. You can still get those from nurseries and they are on their own roots

1. Tresteza away

This is a very informative thread!

Great, good information, but still need the answer to my problem... where can I get any sour root stock oranges in my part of the world?..Gary

sour orange tree seeds

more seeds

Make sure they are fresh harvest and kept moist. Citrus seeds die when dry

In your region I dunno. Never been that far north. But If there is a Latin American food store they may have the oranges from which you can grow true to type seedlings called polyembrionics. Look around. I can not remember -off hand how they label them but I can check next time I go to Houston, probably this week end. Anybody out there remembers, chime in please. Sour oranges are slightly flattened globular fruit with slightly uneven to rough rinds. (They are used in Latino cooking to make some kind of sauce.) We can help you grow them if you can get seeds.

Good luck.

Are you only interested in naval oranges?

i would do a search to see which orchards ship their properly ripened oranges IN SEASON.

Sort of like the Florida 'Honeybells' that you can order boxes of.

I mean a properly ripened orange, no matter the rootstock, is going to be wayyyy better than anything from your average grocery store. Talk to the growers!

"Honeybells" are Miniola tangelos. Very tasty when grown on their own roots, but they may get a little large for you before they fruit. Try Murcotts - socalled honey mandarins. They grow on their own roots and are very good.

Kroger has bags of Heirlooms, as does Trader Joes. Feb-March Only though. Definately worth searching for,

Why buy heirloom oranges over normal oranges. I can see buying organic over normal oranges.

Steve

Very old thread, but for what it's worth.

Trader Joe's carries (or carried) the Sky Valley Heirloom Navels this year starting in January. What makes these great are the region they are grown in, the soil, the climate, the rootstock (sour orange), the age of the trees, and the line of navel. Maybe even the stage they are picked and the short time to market. They truly are full-flavored. I've given up on all other navels. Just buy these now.

By the way, an easy way to obtain sour orange rootstock is simply to buy ONE sour orange at the grocery store. I bought one and it had maybe 30 seeds in it. Starting some as we speak.

I bought my sour orange last year and grafted an NZL to the resulting seedling. I have a couple seedlings left to graft a valentine pomelo to.

Steve

I have Cara Cara navels and Midknight Valencias; planted in ground and awesome; they are grafted to Macrophylla rootstock. I also have 3 seville orange trees (the original and still best sour orange IMO); I brought the seeds from Sevilla; they are still young; but I am growing them to produce seeds for future grafting of my oranges for my gardens, friends and family. It is not a commercial endeavor; so, even at my age I am allowed to be patient.