You have covered a tremendous amount of ground. The short answer to your many questions might be: 1. go to the container forum and learn some skills 2. Depending on your method of storing seeds (besides being in the fridge)...you might consider getting fresh seeds. 3. Study past posts for recommended varieties 4. your container and medium will be key factors

Ilan,

Sorry to hear about your experiences last year. Tomatoes are generally thought of as a relatively easy veggie to grow, so the fact that you saw no fruit on so many plants is troubling.

If you could provide some more information by answering the questions below, it may help us key in on root cause:

1. What is your seed germination and seedling growth procedure?
a. Did you get good germination with your seeds you obtained
b. What was your germination procedure
c. What was your seedling propagation procedure
d. At what age did you transplant your seedlings to your garden
e. What was your hardening off procedure

2. What was your growing conditions?
a. What kind of soil/fertilizer did you use
b. What was your watering routine
c. What kind of light (full sun/partial shade/etc.) and how many hours did your plants receive
d. What size container did you use?
e. How many growing days (days above 85F do you have in your growing zone)?
f. How hot did it get in the days and nights?
3. How did you support your plants

4. Did you notice your plants have good flowering?
a. If not that means something
b. If so that means something
c. If so and all the flowers fell off that means something

5. Did you notice early stage tomato fruit development and if so, what happen to the fruit while it ripened?

6. How well did your plants grow?
a. Did you notice any wilting or disease to your plants
b. Did you notice stunted growth
c. Did you notice yellowing of your leaves?

All of the varieties you mentioned are well reviewed/grown heirlooms here on the forum. Of the ones your mentioned Yellow Pear probably is the most productive, but is notorious for having a bland taste (I believe YP is the #1 most "zapped" variety here on the forum, i.e. people grow it once and then zap it from their list).

The others are late season larger beefsteaks (85 - 95 days after transplantation). They generally take a good while to develop fruit.

If you have the capacity to grow 29 plants, perhaps you should also try some well known midseason/early season varieties which will allow you to get tomatoes all through the growing season.

Some good early varieties are: Kimberly and Matina
Some good midseason are: just about any cherry (Black Cherry, Sungold, Matt's Wild Cherry, etc), Gregori's Altai, Eva Purple Ball, Frembgens Rheinlands Ruhm, Rutgers, Elfin

Also, I suggest getting a copy of Craig LeHoullier's EPIC TOMATOES book. It is a great primer for all things related to growing tomatoes.

Here is a link that might be useful: Epic Tomatoes Book (Amazon)

5-7 gallon containers will work with good southern sunlight. I used to grow them well on an apartment balcony. Beans, cukes and bell peppers, too.

Thank you very much for all the replies.

Here is the link I posted while still hoping to fight off last year's mishap...

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg0607390321596.html?11

Scroll down and you will find images of the wrinkling leaves on the Brandywine. Later all varieties showed the same leaf symptoms and failed. Yellow Pear managed some fruit but I also found that their taste was not that special.

Germination seemed fine, in small containers. Plant grew nicely in the soil to about 1' tall, before symptoms began showing, I don't know if Leaf Edema was to be ruled out but reducing amounts of water did not make it go away, as was reported by others. I only learned about hardening-off as I progressed. Generally, I started seedling outdoors. in the shade and just moved them to full sunlight at some point...

Since I have already tried, with the help of this fine community, to put my finger on the cause (and was unsuccessful at that...) I was hoping that going with pots this year, I would most likely avoid last years problem. And I thought that inquiring with you guys about varieties that were hard to screw up, I would get even better chances...

5-7 gallon pots...?!? Wow, I found this guy on Youtube growing a Brandywine in 65(!) gallons, and was hoping I could get away with only 20... How large a pot do you think would be required for a plant as big as the one in this video...? Right, you suggested I check the container forum. I'll do that right now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkfPOtFKEWM

Thanks!

Ilan.

I am not able to open your links but wanted to add that tomato seeds are viable for years. I routinely sprout seeds that are ten years old.

OK, I think links to old messages don't direct to the actual discussion... Here:

Same Brandywine...

This post was edited by zeligbass on Wed, Jan 14, 15 at 13:38

Here...

65 gallon container for Brandywine. Looks like to much to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkfPOtFKEWM

Based on where you live and the growing conditions/weather...I would NOT recommend planting an indeterminate tomato in a 5 gallon container. You would have to stand over it 24/7 and water and feed constantly. As I stated earlier....the container forum guys are dialed in on this subject. Go there.

If I had just to mention one cause (based on the pictures) I would say LEAF EDEMA .

This is a physiological condition caused by excess watering and poorly drained soil. So the roots absorb more water that the leave can dissipate and handle. So the leave swell, rupture, curl. In a minor from it is often call stress due to too much water.
Let us make a distinction that there can be different forms of "Too much water". For example in a well drained sand soil and containers , it can lead to loss of nutrients (leaching), mostly Nitrogen.

There are other possibilities like pests.

Seysonn

Thanks for the replies...

I checked the containers forum. I found no conclusion specific to indeterminate heirloom tomatoes, but somehow ended up with the impression that 20 gallon pots will be worth a try... Still not with confidence as the only clear and straightforward answer I got was the above video showing a Brandywine plant growing in a 65 gallon container(...!) Confusing because everybody else is talking 5-20 gallons max, while not specific to a large indeterminate plant...

Leaf Edema was the main suspect last year when I was trying to save the plants. I tried reducing amounts of water but the situation continued to deteriorate and the unaffected eventually turned bad too...

Actually, if you think about it, heirloom tomatoes have smaller root systems than hybrids. They OUGHT to to better in containers than hybrids. You should pay more attention to the soil than the plants.

Well, that's good to know.
As for the soil, I plan on getting potting soil and compost. That's it I guess... I have lots of compost in my own pile but it is in my backyard, where the plants had their troubles...

I don't want to start anything new here but I would very much appreciate one or two of anybody's favorite heirloom tomatoes... The really amazing ones...! Salad and sandwich are all I am in to, no canning etc. And I don't fancy the small cherrys very much either...

Thanks a lot.

Ilan.

If you want to grow in 5 gallon containers, why not try some dwarfs? These were DESIGNED to be grown in containers! Just make sure that you use "potting" soil and not "garden" soil or anything else. It can make a huge difference.

Examples of dwarfs would be:

Rosella Purple
Rosella Crimson
Dwarf Mr. Snow
Tasmanian Chocolate
Iditarod Red
Sweet Sue
Summertime Gold
Wild Fred
New Big Dwarf
Polish Dwarf

I'm no expert, but I'm surprised that nobody has suggested herbicide drift as the cause of the curling leaves. Obviously, it was something pretty drastic to result in no tomatoes.

As for Yellow Pear having no flavor, from what I've heard about that variety, it was nothing that you did!!!!

HTH,
Linda

I would not rule out growing in a test area in the ground. Make sure no weed killers have been used there in the past year. Break the soil, and turn it well once every couple of weeks for a month or so. Water the ground, and see how long it takes to dry out. If you have amendments such as compost, and rotted manure add some every time you turn the soil over. A good depth to turn over for me is about 2 feet (2/3 of a meter is close to that). When the soil is very wet if it is like Play-Dough then some other amendments to break up the clay are advised.

Also if you can get a soil test done I think it would help to find out if there is a real culprit in the ground, or if it just needs more matter to break it up, and aid in draining. Also if you can not make raised beds then making mounds about 1/4 meter tall by 1/2 meter wide may help as well.

Think mounding as in those that grow melons do to aid in draining.

Basically the only difference between hybrids and heirlooms is that heirlooms are open pollinated tomatoes that have been breeding true for more than 50 years and hybrids are the first generation crosses between open pollinated varieties. Hybrids are bred to be more productive and/or more disease resistant and/or more uniform in size and days to harvest. Hybrids were not necessarily bred to taste better, and many people think a lot of them are inferior in taste for that reason. There are small heirlooms and large ones, early ones and late ones, productive ones and stingy ones, just like hybrids. Some handle heat well, and others don't. In terms of growing, there really is no difference. If you can't grow hybrids in your conditions it's unlikely that you will be able to grow heirlooms.

That said, I have been growing tomatoes in mostly 20 and 25 gallon containers for more than 25 years. For the past five years, I've grown mostly large, indeterminant heirlooms in containers using the 5-1-1 soil mix many people in the container forum use. My results have been much better using 5-1-1 and complete fertilizers than they were using organic fertilizers and amendments in containers. If you use a potting mix (not soil) with good drainage and adequate fertilization in a large enough container, in full sun, and your season is long enough and not too hot or too cold, you should be able grow almost any heirloom you want.

In my conditions, I've had the best luck with Brandywine Sudduth, mortgage lifter, Cherokee purple, Anna Russian, Kosovo, goose creek and San Marzano. My worst experiences were with really large plants with days to maturity of 90 days or more. I prefer large pink beefsteaks and oxhearts, so my experience with other kinds is limited.

I can't emphasize enough how important the quality of your potting mix is. I agree that you're likely to get the best advice on growing in a container in the container forum.

Zeligbass, sorry I missed the information that you are in Israel. I know the general growing conditions of most part of the US, but Israel is unkown to me. Here is a URL for US growing zones.

http://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/

If you can find a US zone that generally matches your growing conditions and add some description of rainfall patterns, that would probably help us help you a lot better.

Just a thought...

I will grow in my beds in the garden as the beds are already there (I really worked hard on them) and germinating, and growing more seedlings is not a problem... I do think that the soil is good, except for whatever micro-organism that is hiding in the shadows, so for now, I find it hard to muster optimism...

"That said, I have been growing tomatoes in mostly 20 and 25 gallon containers for more than 25 years. For the past five years, I've grown mostly large, indeterminant heirlooms in containers... I've had the best luck with Brandywine Sudduth..." This is exciting news and just the information I was looking for...! I guess 25 gallons it is...!

Do you think your Sudduth Brandywines grow smaller in these containers than they would in the garden?

Our climate in Israel is most similar to California, though not very humid in Summer. Where I live, it is rare to get any frost at all. All our rain is in winter, tomatoes' off-season, though, since we have no frost, I would expect them to keep going into autumn. Our hottest days in mid-Summer may reach 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with an occasional 105 degrees (not all years). I plan to have them in full 8 hour direct sun (there are shadows from large trees so first and last hours of daytime they will be in the shade). Please don't tell me this is too hot as I am not the type to make two daily visits to the plants, dragging them from sunny to shaded spots...

Thanks Linda. Can you recommend your favorite of the dwarfs you mentioned. That is, the most delicious...? (I prefer the full size tomatoes, not too much into cherry size...) I agree that adding one or two of these to my order from Baker's Creek (or a provider you would recommend, if the seeds for the plants you mentioned are of special breed...) is a good idea.

Thank you all very much.

Ilan

This post was edited by zeligbass on Wed, Jan 21, 15 at 6:13

Sounds like large containers are the way to go there in Israel. It does allow for controlling the waterings.

Ilan: I don't think my big beefsteak type tomatoes, like brandywine and mortgage lifter, were significantly smaller than ones growing in the ground in my area. But I think I got fewer of them than I would have if they were in the ground. Although I like the flavor of the brandywines more, I grow the mortgage lifters because I get a lot more of them reliably under different growing conditions and they do taste great. The Oxhearts and cherokee purples are even more productive. Growers in the American South seem to have more problems with Brandywine than we do in the Midwest. They seem more sensitive to high night temperatures and often stop producing for me in mid summer. I suggest that you choose at least three different varieties to be sure of getting at least one that does well in your conditions.

Another consideration is watering. I water heavily every other day. Using a hose to water 12 25-gallon pots of tomatoes takes me almost an hour. That's a lot of work.

Thank you very much for your reply...

Brandywine being a delicate plant in hot climates is a great tip! Everyone is praising its taste so much, that I was set on it being my top priority... I'll go with the two you recommend. Mortgage lifter and Oxheart (browsing around I found Kosovo to be a good one...), then some Brandywine Sudduth, hoping to get something of the taste everyone is talking about, and bumped into Chocolate Stripes...

How's all four of those from Tatyana's...? (or stick to Bakers's Creek...?)

The tip about Mortgage lifter bringing better chances of success in different conditions is great. Would you say that is true also for Kosovo Oxheart? Do you know about the others I mentioned here?

Thanks a lot.

Ilan.

My Take on Container Size:

Plants (Tomatoes in this case ) need: (1)Nutrients, (2) moisture and (3) stable root temperatures.

The difficulty and challenge in small container is HOW to keep all those 3 needs steady. It can flip flop between dry and wet, the root temperature fluctuate widely ( day and night) , nutrients can leached out real fast. But as a grower, if you dedicate a lot of time and attention to keep constant moisture, cool root temps, adequate level of nutrients then you CAN grow in smaller containers.

Having said that, the larger the container gets, it approaches normal growing in the ground. So then a 20-25 gallon container is close to a small raised bed. That is about how much soil volume I dedicated to my tomato plants in raised beds.

The bottom line is that bigger container offer peace of mind, less work with better outcome. But it carries a relatively high initial cost. A 25 gallon container plus decent potting soil can cost upward of $30.
So what I do is to make a compromise between 25 gallon and 5 gallons. A 10 -12 gallons would be my choice. Then I try to plant determinants and avoid aggressive indets. YMMV

Seysonn

Ilan: I've gotten most of what I know about growing different varieties in different environments from reading posts on Gardenweb and other sites like this. I've only grown in this one part of the world, so I don't really know how varieties will do in Israel.

Brandywine is so popular that there have been a lot of reports on it, and I remember several people from the deep (American) south reporting disappointment. One other consideration is that there are several different Brandywines, and a least two different Mortgage Lifters. I assume they are similar, but don't know from personal experience. I've tried at least 20 different beefsteak type heirloom tomatoes and settled on these two favorites because in my personal experience, they were both productive and delicious.

There are probably dozens of great tasting tomatoes that would do great for you but would disappoint me. You just need to experiment for yourself. Don't overthink it. If you know any other growers in your area, listen to what they suggest.

As for seed sources, there are many reliable ones, and the two you mention have gotten good reviews on this site. I would trust both of them.

I have grown full sized heirlooms in 20 gallon containers, but not Brandywine. Brandywine generally does not produce well in Southern, hotter and particularly humid areas and it gets 6 feet tall or taller so would be very difficult to stake and manage. I would also recommend Cherokee Purple as a widely liked variety, but I would try a few really early ones, that are also smaller plants like Sophies Choice, so you can see if the weather is part of the problem. You might find you get early tomatoes and then they shut down. You could easily fit 2 Sophies Choice in a 20 gallon pot. Timing can also be an issue, you probably want to get them started and out during your cooler season.

Thank you all.

So my final seed roster for the upcoming season is...

I have just ordered:

Sophie's Choice
Mortgage Lifter
Kosovo (Oxheart)
Chocolate stripes
Brandywine- Sudduth's

This adds to seeds I have from last year:

Cherokee Purple
Paul Robeson
Black Krim
Kellogg's Breakfast

I hope the order will arrive here early enough in the season to start with Sophie's Choice...

I have passed by a place for containers, medium etc. and found that 25 gallon containers seem huge... I found that here too, one of these plus the medium will be around 30$US. I only found containers at a reasonable price, of 17 and 25 gallons. The price of setting up a plant in the former will be half that of the latter so I am wondering whether All plants, except for Brandywines, will do well in the 17 gallon containers, but this is a point we dwelled enough on in this thread...

Since the expense will be of significance, I will have to choose those I plant a few of, with the recommended conditions, and those I will plant only one or two of, or will experiment with in lesser conditions (smaller pots... back to the beds in the garden...)

Besides the Brandywines which you have already prepared me to expect less than perfect results (being the climate here hot...), any tips on which in the above two lists are more of a sure bet, not only for a successful grow, but nice delicious fruit...?

And if not (because maybe I am over-thinking it too much...) Thanks all very much... I hope to report good results in a few months.

Ilan.

I think 17 gallons will be adequate for all of your plants. The Brandywine will probably be the largest, and would benefit from the larger pot, but it will be OK in 17 gallons. You may need to water more often, and you definitely need to use a complete fertilizer on a regular basis. Your next major challenge is figuring out how to support these plants, most of which will grow well over 6 feet tall. I used to use eight foot heavy duty stakes in my containers, and every summer one or more would fall over in a storm when full grown. Stakes also work better if you do some pruning, which cuts down on yield. If you can fashion or buy very large cages -- at least 5 feet tall above the soil surface and 20-25 inches in diameter, you won't need to prune. Even those may need to be tied to something in the ground, depending on your weather.

Some other good container tomatoes that are well reviewed here include:

Bush Goliath
Elfin

Here is a link that might be useful: Elfin Tomatoes (TGS)

Sophie's Choice is a smaller plant and I have gotten good yields from 1 plant in a 10 gallon pot. It really does not need 17 gallons, I don't think. You can save yourself some soil there. You can do Brandywine and KB in 17 gallons but they would do best in the 25. You might want to spend the money on just 1 or 2 of the larger pots and then go smaller for some for some of the others. Then you wouldn't be spending any more money than if you bought all 17 gallon. Don't forget you can use the 17 gallon if that is what you get the best price on, and not fill it all the way up for the smaller plants. The cost of soil is significant. Also, you can always add more soil later in the season, since the stems can be burried and will grow more roots, if needed. So, for the ones I have personally grown, my recommendation would be 25 gallon for Brandywine and KB, 10 gallon for Sophies Choice, and 17 gallon for Kosovo, Cherokee Purple and ML. The others I have not grown.

Another thought occurred to me. If the price difference was not significant, you could buy most or all 25 gallon pots and not fill them up all the way this year, then next year reuse the soil and add new soil to refresh it and the pots would all be full in the second or third year. It does mean your pots would have shallower soil the first year, but it would give you a chance to see how big they get and spread the cost over a couple of years. The only challenge with that is that it would make staking a little more difficult unless the pots were on soil, in which case you could use a stake in the ground on the sides of the pots.

Sorry for belaboring the issue if you meant to end the thread. Maybe you already thought of all of that. :)

I was just looking at your pics. I am also surprised no one mentioned herbicide drift. Not reading or remembering the original thread, and seeing how dark green your leaves were, my thought is that maybe you used a high nitrogen fertilizer, which results in lots of leaf growth but little fruit. If either of those is the case, the same thing will happen in containers, since they are also affected by herbicide, and too much nitrogen. Do you have the analysis of the fertilizer you used? I would also reconsider the use of compost in pots in favor of a sterile medium. Many potting soils also have some fertilizer in them to start with. I have seen local compost cause herbicide type problems here, esp when it came from the local landfill where residents can get it free. People will use herbicides to clear out weeds, brush and overgrowth and then throw it into the yard waste containers the town picks up and uses for the free compost. Then it gets used on plants by unsuspecting people who have no idea why their plants aren't doing well. It only takes a small amt to contaminate a whole batch of compost. I would guess even "organic" herbicides like vinegar could be harmful also. I don't know what is available and legal in your area.

I mix a 9-0-0 with a 0-6-6 to get whatever blend suits my plants. The little leafpro I buy by the bucket-loader in my trailer is claimed to be free of even drift. I hope.

I doubt that Sophie's Choice needs a large container. The tomatoes from the Dwarf Project can be grown in 5 gallon pots. Since Sophie's Choice only grows to two feet in height, I would put it in a 3 gallon container!

Linda

Hi.

The conclusion I was arriving at with regards the container size for the different plants is pretty close to what you recommend here. Good to know Sophie's Choice will do with ten gallons and even less.

As for the compost. Unlike last year, when I was trying to grow in the garden, using compost from my own pile, right next to the beds... This year I was going to get potting soil and bagged compost. Really don't know the manufacturing process of this compost, but I hope the likelihood of infectious agents is low... I have never gotten into the synthetic fertilizer thing, and hope results will not be compromised because of it...

Thanks. Ilan.

Ilan: Bagged compost alone will never provide enough nutrients for your plants. It is possible that part of what was bothering your plants last year was starvation. You have to make sure they get all three major nutrients (N P K), Calcium, Magnesium and the other micronutrients in a balanced formula. That's hard to do adding a little bit of this organic ingredient and a little bit of that. In the United States, you can buy organic fertilizers that provide most of what you need, like Espoma's Tomatotone. When I used that, I fed my tomatoes full strength every two weeks all summer. Now, I use a controlled release fertilizer in my potting mix and also feed the plants every two weeks with a liquid fertilizer.

This is a photo of my tomatoes in 25 gallon pots about 8 weeks after I set them outside. Those are Texas Tomato Cages that stand five feet above the pot and the plants are already taller than that. I think the one on the right may be Brandywine Sudduth.

Really...?
So these plants will not succeed if I was to try and mimic optimal natural outdoor conditions... Well draining planting soil and as much compost as necessary...? Is this because they are a far cry from their natural occurring ancestors? Sometimes I get tomato plants that have sprouted in my compost pile. I assume this means they can handle a 100% compost medium... Will they not be successful if I were to pour in lots of compost?

Ilan.

Some people do use compost in containers, but it can severely interfere with drainage if it makes up more than 15-20 percent of your mix. It also is actually very low in nutrients and tomatoes require a lot of nutrients to grow well. How experienced are you with growing plants in containers? If you've had success growing a fast growing plant in a container of compost over a long, hot season, then you are an exception to the rule.

Container growing is very different from growing in the ground. I would encourage you to do some more reading in the Container forum. The link below goes to a thread that has run continuously since 2005. Hundreds of people have reported excellent results following this advice.

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Growing, water movement and retention

Suddenly I'm reading about compost tea... I guess the whole fertilizing thing will keep me busy until the seeds arrive...

Thanks very much.