IMO .... There are simply too many variables (both known and unknown) involved for any yield of quality data from such "side by side" tests, personal experiences or experiments.

Are they fun, interesting and a learning experience? They sure are! But in the end they simply don't prove much but provide conjecture. They usually just create many more questions than provide actual answers and so very rarely enable one to substantiate ones own suspicions.

I believe part of the roadblock towards any answers we may seek are simply rooted within the way we humans often tend to think. We like to think in nice neat absolutes that are obediently organized all within neat little borders grouped amoungst similarities. Nature simply does not always work this way nor does it tend to fully cooperate with our inane desire to neatly label, group and make everything right/wrong, black/white etc etc. Nature is chock full of interconnected exceptions, highly arbitrary chain reactions and always seems to have a wild card or two up its sleeve to pull out at the most unexpected turn.

Please don't let my inadequate dab of philosophical conjecture above dissuade you though! I would still find your efforts interesting and fun to read as I'm sure many others would also. My personal suspicion is that not all worm castings are like all other worm castings depending on a plethora of variables that are also influenced greatly by each other.

Back to the topic .... Have you seen or read the book "Vermiculture Technology"?

I vaugely remember somewhere within this book this very subject of worm casting toxicity being somewhat briefly discussed

I could be wrong as I don't have the book itself in front of me.... but amazingly I did quickly just find a PDF version online. I'm on my phone so searching this PDF book is simply too frustrating to attempt. Even if I'm mistaken this book is an excellent reference for anyone remotely serious about vermiculture and its most certainly worth your time to read or browse through it.

I'm not the most technologically astute person so if the link doesn't work ... Well ... I tried and you'll have to search google.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vermiculture Technology

Organican: The link is a nice resource. It crashes on this tiny computer when I search for the word "toxic". Clive is still alive with an e-mail. Maybe he has an opinion of the topic. He would probably think our "debait" of the topic shows vermi spunk. If I ever get invited to the same cocktail party as him I will endever to ask him our question. Cocktail choice: Vermillionaire.

Nice find Organican, I did a search on the book and did not find any reference to worm casts being toxic to worms. I did see a great many references of input materials being toxic and even information on using worms in remediation of contaminated soils such as waste sites. Looked like most of it was pretty much if it doesnt kill the worms they will clean it up.

Even in organic materials there may be compounds toxic to worms and there was the suggestion that thermophilic precomposting could reduce or eliminate this making it safe enough for the worms to finish the job.
_________________________________________________

Organic wastes can contain materials that are potentially toxic to earthworms,
such as ammonia or salts in animal manure or tannins and acids in green wastes
(Gunadi and Edwards 2003). One way to reduce the toxic components of the
organic wastes is to thermophilically precompost the wastes before vermicomposting.
Precomposted wastes could be more acceptable and cause less earthworm
mortality. However, organic wastes that have been precomposted for more than 2
weeks may have decreased nutrient availability for earthworm growth. This could
inhibit the rates of earthworm growth and numbers of cocoons and hatchlings
(Gunadi, et al. 2002)
_____________________________________________

I 've scanned the 600 pages of Edwards book.
If what interested me would interest you I would put it in another thread.

Tim Wilson offers this from Kelly Slocum:

"Let's debunk this myth that worm castings are bad for worms. Worms need the most biologically active environment they can find in order to grow at maximum. The cast of the worm can be as much as six times MORE biologically active than is the OM they ingest. As such, castings are beneficial in the system since they increase the microbial activity. In fact, worms will reingest their own castings over and over again, even in the presence of a rich food source. Some of the most productive worm beds in the world are maintained by removing castings just once per year. Now, having said that, castings can also be very dense. If you get a castings build up low in the bin it can sometimes restict air movement. You'll want to watch bin conditions and, if you find the worms are reacting to low O2 levels, clean out the castings."

barbararose21101: The paragraph seems just what posters here have been saying. That was a great find. The last sentence seems to be maybe what Mary was talking about. The paragraph sort of makes the sentence "Vermicastings are not toxic." true while also making the sentence Vermicastings that air can not get to, make a toxic environment for worms." also true. Is that how you read it? I read it that way. That explains why it has been such a topic for us here.

My own observation is that given the chance, most worms will migrate away from their castings. There will be a few who stay behind. They will all be quite small. Whether they are juveniles, or Brian Paley's mini-worms, I can't say. I also don't know why the mature worms abandoned their castings. They never have told me.

In spite of all the "WOW" information being forced upon us here about worms being able to eternally re-ingest their own vermi-waste and thrive, I will tell you that if you try to maintain a worm population that way, you will fail miserably, become disgusted with your efforts to "revolutionize" the science/art of vermicomposting, and most likely regress to the point of chemoheadism...which is pretty much akin to razing the generally accepted worming principles of nature.

At any rate, the wormies ain't gonna like it.

chuckiebtoo

Yes but that is more about anaerobic conditions than the actual makeup of the material there Equinox. Could be any old kind of fluff going bad in the bottom of the bin.

New word for you from the book being discussed - Vermillenium

So another vote for worms eat worm poo from Tim the Toolman, wait Wilson was the neighbor and his last name was Taylor.

Was that in Vermiculture Technologies Barbara? I only searched through on 'toxic' have it saved though for future reading, I did see the book was dedicated to Appelhoff.

Here is a link that might be useful: Grunt grunt grunt

Tim Wilson posted the quote from Slocum in reply to my question to "Logical Gardener".

How I read it is that there is a difference in emphasis. Mary's goal is to process worm friendly food to keep it out of landfill and get a useful product, too. It was her thread and she deserves respect !

Slocum, Wilson and Hussey have microscopes and are, maybe, more interested in microbes than in worms.

I can imagine many variables: among them, the vermiphile's personal temperament.
IMO if I Love my worms, I'm not going to leave them to re-eat what their bodies have processed.
If , in fact, the castings have more appeal than the diet I offer, shame on me.

Further: When I imagine how we can "prove" anything one way or another,
I fail to imagine anyone actually doing it.
You'd have to use Paul's biopar individual worm ID
to know that the biomass was the same "verd" that was left to feed on its four letter word meaning castings.

Furthermore: there is the variable of the hatchlings entering the miasma. If the notion that worms adapt to what is available -- has merit --
and if all there is to eat is four letter word they may adapt to that .

Did you know you can expand this window ?

Nexev: It is good to know he dedicated the book to her.

barbararose21101: "expand this window" by clicking on the squares just to the left of the "X" in the upper right corner? Yes. Also, to make the text bigger hold down "CTRL" and click "+". Continue to click + until it is big enough. If using Chrome there is a High Contrast button that can be added to make the medium gray text on the light gray background change to black text on white back ground. Tips I use every day.

cough, Appelhof, cough

CB, you have gone from never to forever on this topic.

Personally for me there is some middle ground and as in most things the gray area is where the answers are.

I dont believe anyone has advocated for the feeding of castings exclusively to worms. In fact the practice would be counterproductive in terms of the main reason most tend to worms in the first place which is the production of castings to improve their growing conditions for plants. Also over time the increased biological activity in castings has to drop as whatever the microbes are feeding on gets used up.

In the end everything goes through the belly of a worm, is renewed then at some point again becomes worm food. Darwin talked about the whole surface of the earth having passed through the worm. Over the course of several vermillenia how many times have the elements we ourselves are made of made the journey?

Barbara, my apologies for the disruption of your Appelhoff thread as it sort of derailed after I suggested material passes through a worm more than one time. I felt being told something 'NEVER' happens that seemed so obvious that would happen warranted response. Will try and be more sensitive in the future.

I must tell you that the word Coprophagia is a word I have never seen and so looking at the Google made me know this place is more than ever changing from the way I am more comfortable with knowing.

I do know that the eating of the excretions of the worms is something the worms do not want to do. I know this because worms and people are all a part of the nature of this place. I too know that this would not be a thing of success for the worms.

CarlosDanger

Nexev: It is almost like there are lots of little pieces of the puzzle and we were all holding a few pieces of the whole picture. I can't disagree with much in your post. So maybe worms are not eating castings but eating the biology that is eating the castings. That sounds agreeable. Each new poster has valuable insights I learn from. Sometimes more than I want. :-)

Following your, Nexev, line of thought, CarlosDanger avert your eyes, we are all drinking water dinosaurs have passed a few times. Way cooler than Gatorade.

CarlosDanger: Another country heard from. I hear ya. Nice to hear from you.

The merit in using the unfamiliar word is 1 - it is precise;
2 - it gets known 3 - it gets Out There.
Someday we may be able to put those words in an internet search and learn more science.

As an animal lover I am a vermiphile and I wouldn't do this:
but if anyone were interested in testing the capacity of red wigglers to survive on their own castings, I did, finally, imagine a test that would be persuasive if not conclusive.

Again: words matter. There is a difference between survive and thrive .

An experimenter could put a half pound of adult E.fetida worms into a pound of the purest E.fetida castings (has to be same species for a test) -- and observe. We've posted enough of the variables that we all have some ideas of the possible results.
.

When you first placed the worms in their new home, the bedding was made up of fresh material (hopefully), which in due course would become simply another ingredient in the final product. Then food was added, and the worms went about their usual business of eating everything in sight, altering the material as it passed through their remarkable little bodies, and finally excreting it back into the bed from which it will eventually be harvested, and used to "feed" some very fortunate plant. Like every other animal in the world, however, a worm is unable to remain healthy if forced to live in his own waste material.Thus, we change the bedding on a regular basis, preventing the castings from reaching a level where they would be toxic to the bin's inhabitants. By overwatering, however, we speed up the process, spreading the castings with the run-off. (The substance which will eventually kill the worms is also the same substance that we wish to save for the plants, and a lot of this can be lost in the excess water.)