The floor plan and elevations should have exact sizes, the elevations will show how many drawers. Roll outs and other interior accessories show up on the plan in manufacturer order code.

I provide another page, a second copy of the floor plan with those things all noted in plain English. We ask clients to sign at a line that says " I fully understand and accept these drawings..." the plain English makes it "understandable"

Itemized pricing is not common, an itemized list is a little more common but would be in order codes. I will make either available on request (and time to put it together) That is not common and takes a good bit of time to put together. I only do it because some people feel a need and we can. Often people find it either useless or confusing since it is all in codes.

I think you are right to be concerned.It's not really an "industry standard" it's a regular old contract that obligates you to pay a lot of money. Would you buy a house, sign a lease, buy a car without having in writing what you are getting? What's between the KD and the manufacturer is what the KD is payng. You don't get to know the mark up. What you are getting should not be a secret.

If you wanted a 12 page document full of jargon, I'd give you a copy. But you'd be hopelessly lost trying to understand it. It's the copy of the elevation, with each cabinet numbered that's important. And the ''synopsis'' page that lists the door style, basic features, and key elements. And the final design visit where you go over each cabinet in the design. If you have any final questions, that's where you ask them. All of your other questions should be answered in previous meetings.

Any other contract language is about the financials, or the install, or other labor, not about the cabinets themselves. And you get a copy of that as well.

I ordered Innermost cabinets through Home Depot.

It took a number of hours to work with the Home Depot person to enter the cabinet detail into their system. I got back elevation diagrams and 3-D diagrams as well as an order list, which detailed everything I wanted.

Apparently, the Home Depot system is a front-end to a totally different order system for Innermost. Innermost had no idea what I wanted based on the Home Depot specification. When the order went to Innermost, it was a 50+ page order detail list with different part numbers.

When the delivery came, they gave me the Innermost order detail list which they asked me to check against as they brought cabinet boxes into the house, to make sure I got everything. It really was not intuitive in mapping this order detail to the Home Depot version.

In the end there was a giant leap of faith that I had to make, and there wasn't much I could do about it. The good news is everything matched up in the end.

When specifying what you want, you really should be indicating things like how many drawers, pullouts, dimensions, etc. Otherwise how will you know what you're getting? However, it may be hard for a cabinet manufacturer to give you a pretty summary of the order line detail. Somebody (maybe your KD in this case) has to take responsibility for making sure the order is right.

This post was edited by calumin on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 9:24

Now that would make me really curious on the mark-up! She should provide you with an itemized list if that is what you want.

Here's a pic of one of the pages in one of my latest orders. There were 37 pages of this total. If you wanted a copy of it, sure, I'd give it to you, but interpreting it is another matter. If you don't trust me to create the proper design for you and to order the cabinets correctly, then we shouldn't be working together. Sure, I occasionally get a cabinet ordered incorrectly, or it comes in damaged. That's when you get to see the character of the place that you're working with. Every manufacturer has a "rush" response, no questions asked for products that are needed to complete the job. I paid for the wrong sized oven cabinet that I ordered, and the manufacturer paid for sending the concealed damage of a smashed box on another. It's another 10 days to receive, and the installer managed to get a temp counter on for the customer so they weren't too inconvenienced. Crap happens. It's how you handle that that makes a difference. That's why you have to have trust in your partner, the KD.

Oh, here's a shot of the folder with all of the pertinent paperwork in it that I have to deal with for an order. It's about 2 1/2" thick. Sure, you can have a copy of that as well. If you want me to kill some trees. 99% of it isn't going to help you at all. It will just confuse you.

I don't think this is personal attack. Sorry, but she is the customer and has a right to see it....because as you say, people DO make mistakes.

I don't think trust really has anything to do with it, it is a business deal.

I've never worked with a KD so I can't give you insight into how the order should look. But I can relate to not wanting to sign something without a more exact listing.

Here's what I would do: I'd type of my own list. Surely you know that you need, for example, three 24 inch drawer stacks with 3 drawers, one unit for double ovens, etc. I would type up a list with all that as detailed as possible. And then add a phrase with something like "and all other filler pieces necessary to complete the floorplan as designed". And then I'd give it to the KD and ask her to sign it confirming that all those items have indeed been ordered.

Once that's signed, I'd feel comfortable signing the vague order. But I would write on the vague order something like "in accordance with attached itemized list provided by customer, signed and dated on _______" and initial and date that statement. And make sure you both have signed copies to attach.

Yes, I used to be a paralegal. I've seen way too many contract disputes and lawsuits due to vague wording, assumptions, and expectations not fulfilled to not want something more specific.

Edited to add: KD should sign the attachment you create and statements as well.

I agree that this has nothing to do with trust. I would want similar detail in any business deal.

This post was edited by funkycamper on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 12:07

that is a great idea funkycamper! I will remember that one if I ever work with a KD.

Money up front on blind faith does not work well for me!

thanks for the great suggestion!

Measured drawings supplied with contract are legal documents. Perspectives and renderings are not they are artistic representations. The drawings should reflect the information required to properly execute the project.

Follows a sample from a moderate but complex job (and yes we do this for little jobs too, just condensed)

I'm NOT suggesting this is what to expect as standard. Only in principal. This is meant to be instructive...in principal.
You might (likely) get letter size paper, perhaps hand written notes, no electric plan, not be given the factory drawings, some don't number the plan to match the cabinet list.
BUT..
Enough of the primary information should be there in an understandable form to make you comfortable. It should be adequate to convey the project to the installer. (though likely supplemented with a meeting or two)

A client assuming that responsibility from the KD, as you suggest, is simply foolish. A vague statement about "fillers and what is needed" is totally inadequate. It is so open to so much interpretation, there is so much more involved, that without solid drawings it is far less than useful.

Work with someone you believe knows what they are doing and you trust- or go someplace else.

This post was edited by jakuvall on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 15:36

if i am understanding the op correctly, she doesn't even have the layout with the cabinets specked out. i had to sign off on a layout of my kitchen that stated the detail of each cabinet. in fact on my layout i made sure all the cabs were listed as butt doors. my kd still made a mistake and ordered my sink base nonbutt so she had to order new doors and take out the center stile.
notice all the finished ends are listed as well as cabinet style, colors, etc.
i would not want to pay for anything without seeing a finished layout with cabinets listed

That's the ticket. I'd like to see elevations and labels on dimensions lines (wall cab, base cab, wall run, ). Note plain English for the cutlery divider and translation of finished end code.

If it makes you feel better, calling out finished ends is fine but I'd leave that as the KD'S responsibility and accept a note "all exposed ends including at appliances...".

Most times we keep global options in the contract. There is a full page for what is included and being paid for: cabinet brand, constructions, style,wood, color, hinges, glides etc. Any other items included- under cabinet lighting, sinks, hardware, aftermarket accessories etc.

Another page for items that are not included but were designed for- same items if we don't supply them, along with appliances by make,model and all dimensions, and so on.

Very, very helpful jakuvall. Thanks so much. I did not know that perspectives and renderings were considered just artistic interpretations.
The principles you follow make a lot of sense to me. I can't see why it's any extra work at all for the KD who presumably is spending time with the client going over details such as drawer sizes. I'd be satisfied (and reassured) to have all those details annotated in plain language on the measured drawings (and signed by KD and client) which would be the final review meeting before placing the deposit and ordering.

No point in getting the long and uninterpretable list that goes to the manufacturer. Plain language on the measured drawings or on separate pages that incorporate the the measured drawings by reference.

"...sign off on the plan, cost, layout. I requested for the specifics to be included like how many drawers, pull outs, exact sizes. KD says no..."

Ev2012 does not appear to be asking for the order details that Live_Wire _Oak is showing (manufacturer's part #s and breakdowns) - Ev2012 is asking about the basics... layout, types of cabinets, etc. I agree with him/her - there should be something spelling out the cabinets regarding sizes (width/depth/height), configuration (# drawers in each, doors, roll out tray shelves, etc.) The pic that Ardcp shows does appear to have all that information - along with the layout - but I would add that I would want to know the model # of each appliance!

What I would want to see before signing off on anything:

• Layout - approved by me

• Cabinets - as I specified or agreed to

  • Drawer bases

  • Tall cabinets/Upper cabinets/Base cabinets

  • Specific widths/depths/heights

  • Cabinet material/finish/door & drawer design

• Countertop material/finish/pattern/slab that I specified or agreed to

• Appliances that I specified or agreed to (make/model/color/material/finish)

• Fixtures and hardware that I specified or agreed to (make/model/color/material/finish)

• Backsplash design/materials/etc. that I specified or agreed to

• Any other items like lighting, stools/chairs, etc.

• Cost - so if you need to cut/change for budget reasons you have a basis for making the decision of what to change or cut (e.g., plain finished end panel on the back of an island/peninsula rather than decorative/"fake" doors.)

I got all of the above from my KD and it helped me to make informed decisions as well as later hold the KD and installers to what was agreed to.

Ev2012's KD sounds like someone who doesn't want his/her client having any say in what the client's kitchen has in it -or- the KD doesn't want the client to know what's ordered so any changes b/c of issues/mistakes can be blamed on the client not the KD!

Ev2012 - don't sign off until you have all the information you need/want. Tip: As many all-drawer bases as you can get/afford!

========================

Adrcp - I don't know how old that picture is, but if it's recent and you haven't ordered the cabinets yet, can you change out that cabinet over the refrigerator to a full-depth cabinet so it's flush with the refrigerator box/carcass? Then I would surround it with 3/4" finished end panels to the depth of the refrigerator box/carcass (not the doors).

thanks buehl but my cabinets were installed last april.
i did know about boxing in the frig but chose not to as it was very costly and killed our budget. i will say that my husband and i are one of the few out there that did not like the look for our kitchen as our house is very simple.

Thank you everyone for the very informative responses. I had just assumed that any order would be very detailed, with all specifics listed, that the customer had agreed to. Thereby ensuring that communication is clear and everything is documented. I have requested the KD to email me all documents that I will have to sign off on prior to our meeting to place the order and all details and supporting documents to be included for our review and approval. No order until we have all the information we need. Now I am waiting for response...

that's good ev2012.
...let us know how it goes...

"I have requested the KD to email me all documents that I will have to sign off on prior to our meeting to place the order "
That is an excellent practice. But it does not usually happen unless a healthy retainer is in place first. No one, any good, releases a floor plan without protection.

BTW- the best (about the only) thing a client can do to help a KD avoid mistakes is to not make any last minute changes. I've gotten to the point that if there is much in the way of changes at signing I require another meeting for it. Make the changes, meet, then place the order.

I had a floor plan with each cabinet marked out and an itemized list of every single cabinet, drawer etc. with measurements of each and numbers matching up each item on the list to the plan. I was asked to review it before the order was placed. It's a good thing I did as there was an extra cabinet on the order! We had swapped out one cabinet for another and the first was never removed from the order. What I was paying for each cabinet was also listed on the order.