As you mentioned and I also said in my post, here is the growth habit of determinate:

>>>The determinate forms stop their shoot production once flowers form on the ends. <<<

Indtetrminant plant's branches grow vine like indefinitely,

Semi-indet is not a realy a scientific claassification, as I understand it.

It refers to either (1) fruiting habit or (2) where the det branches grow much longer before ending with the final flower truss.

The size of plant is separate from the det/indet feature. There are dwarfs that are indeterminats. I have a dwarf Purple Heart that is growing like indet. but not as tall.

Sey.

Yes - that is interesting Sey - seems black and white - doesn't it?! Here are some photos of one of our NBD's and is typical of our NBD plants that I planted in a bed and supported as it grew. This plant has 3 main stems that grow vertical on our supports (any stems that grew lateral were my neglect in not attaching them to the support timely) - the first truss seen here is not on the same stem that I am following up with the next photos - I am following the middle stem. The trusses grow on this and several stems every third branch but not consistently on every stem. Some stems are longer that others - but most plants begin with one main stem then branch into 3-4 main stems.

This is the first truss on this stem - 3 tomatoes

Here is the second truss on this stem - 5 tomatoes here

Here is the third truss on this stem - 3 tomatoes here

Here is the fourth truss on this stem - 1 tomato here and blossoms

Here is the fifth truss on this stem - only blossoms here

Here is the sixth truss on this vertical stem and the current top of the stem. The stem is still growing and the blossoms appear to be at the pollination stage.

Yes - the plants do have suckers as the stems grow - but not on every branch - some stem branches more that others. The tomatoes ripen as the plant grows and new trusses blossom and set fruit. We have already harvested some tomatoes off this stem and you can see from the progression of growth that NBD appears to grow more like an Indeterminate than a Determinate tomato plant - but appears to be confused and asks itself as it grows - "am I indeterminate or determinate" because it is not 100% of either?

As of today - none of any stems on any of the NBD plants appear to have terminated - even though some stems are longer that others - they all appear to be in the growth mode - and these are good sized plants (6'-8' high)! Is this New Big Dwarf a "Determinate" - "Indeterminate" - or a "Semi-Determinate" ?? As one news source always says - "WE REPORT - YOU DECIDE" haha

More interesting info: Michigan Heirlooms indicates that NBD is an Indeterminate and Tomato Growers indicates it is a Determinate ! I guess it is both a Determinate and an Indeterminate - no wonder the plant is confused - haha

Michigan Heirlooms - NEW BIG DWARF

Another old timer that should be grown more. I was really surprised at that size of fruits that this plant produced - a couple were well over half a pound! Big pink, oblate mini-beefsteaks with good mild flavor.

This plant likes to be well feed and well-watered (the latter applies more so if being grown in a pot) and will reward you handsomely until killing frost for doing so.

GROWTH HABIT: Dwarf / Indeterminate
MATURITY: Mid-season
LEAF TYPE: Rugose
FRUIT CLASS: Slicer
FRUIT SHAPE: Globe, oblate
FRUIT SIZE: Medium
FRUIT COLOR: Pink
USE: Salsa, Fresh, Sauce
ORIGIN: OP - USA

HISTORY: PI 645154 - A cross between Ponderosa X Dwarf Champion, introduced by Isbell's Seed Company in the early 1900's .

Tomato Growers - New Big Dwarf

New Big Dwarf #2522 (30 seeds) Compact plants only become about 2 ft. tall yet produce a very early harvest of flavorful deep pink tomatoes that grow up to 1 pound, but are more typically 8 to 12 ozs. This variety is wonderful in the garden and also in containers since the plant stays small while delivering large and really delicious tomatoes. We consider this an heirloom tomato as it was created before 1915 by crossing the Ponderosa and Dwarf Champion varieties. Determinate. 60 days.

Very well presented, Hudson.

After 8 ft and 7 trusses it is still growing vine like, I simply have to cast my vote for indeterminant NBD.

Sey

New Big Dwarf is still producing - nice large 10-14 oz good tasting tomatoes !! If you haven't tried this variety - you may want to consider planting it in 2016 !

I am sold.

I will grow NBD in 2016. My other new addition will be Better Boy, another Hudson's favorite.

Sey

Yes i will be looking for some seeds too.

Sorry to turn this thread into so much about New Big Dwarf - Sey - but this Variety is still producing and worth mentioning - IMO. Here are some photos of the NBDs in our GH today. The last photo shows new suckers that have grown from where suckers were previously removed - and blossoms developing cute little tomatoes !!

Hudson, thanks for posting. That is what we are after, finding good dwarfs.

And this NBD sounds amazing. And definitely a MUST GROW for me .

How is the temps range in your GH, these days ?

Sey

Tonight is the first real frost test in our GH this season. 15 degrees F is forecast but I think the plants will be protected because it is forecast 15 degrees for only 3 hours during the night. I think we have one more week before temps drop to 10-15 degrees everynight - and for longer periods of time during the night.

Looks like I will be able to try some of the "Fried Green Tomato" recipes soon - haha

I think my last ripe Brandy Boy of 2015 will happen sometime in November

The NBD were producing right to the end - I have some Green Tomatoes that I will either to try to ripen or fry them (maybe both) - haven't decided yet. Tomorrow temps drop to single digits and stay there for the coming weeks. It is not worth it to me to pay to heat the GH with temps that low over an extended period of time. I pulled all the plants today :(

I am sold on NBD.

Sey

hudson___wy(3)

More
interesting info: Michigan Heirlooms indicates that NBD is an
Indeterminate and Tomato Growers indicates it is a Determinate ! I guess
it is both a Determinate and an Indeterminate - no wonder the plant is
confused - haha..

_______________________________

I might have said this before but repeating should not do a harm.

Determinant and in-determinant generally refer to certain growth habit . You can have a det dwarf and indet dwarf.

Best description of INDETERMINANT is that it grows vine-like. In other words ,given time each branch will keep growing indefinitely. So then each branch can also fruit indefinitely .

Determinant does NOT grow vine-like. after several trusses ( at about 3 node intervals) the branch ends with the last truss, with no growing tip. So the the branch is done : NO MORE flowering and fruiting. But then determinants grow bushy with multiple branches. So each one contribute to its production. An also for that reason you won't want to prune the suckers (side branches) because they will take over when the mains are retired.So by having multiple branches, a determinant can continue fruiting all season long, just like an indeterminant.

Now : What the heck is Semi-Determinat ?

I think it is a wrong description, sometimes referred to a COMPACT and less vigorous indeterminant or to a more vigorous determinant that fruits all season long, not just one flush.So really its use is improper, IMO.

So then NBD can be either det or indet. To find out you need to check its growth habit.

Sey

I have committed to up my number of dwarfs next year. This last season I had Livingston's Dwarf Stone and Polish Dwarf. They both were healthy and happy. I just expected more....so, I just ordered four new ones from Tatianna's.

Sey - I agree - the plant is confused! I planted several (6) NBD in containers in the GH and they acted like a Determinate ! They produced well but only grew 3-4' - needed little support - then terminated after production. I planted several NBD (6) in raised beds in the GH and they acted like an Indeterminate !! The vines kept growing up to 8-10' - needed a lot of support and the plant terminated only by cold weather and finally - I pulled them. There was a truss every third branch - you can see my photos above in this thread. Heck - I'm confused too ! I guess NBD is - what you want it to be - haha

Plant it in a container and it is a Determinate

Plant it in a raised bed or garden and it is an Indeterminate

Even our seed sources aren't sure what it is! But one thing for sure - whether I planted it in a container or in the ground - it was a prolific plant that produced 8-14 oz tomatoes with a better than average taste !!

Hudson,

Tomatoes planted in container tends to be miniaturized. The smaller the soil volume , the smaller the plant. That is why and what you've experienced.

But for a variety called "Dwarf", 3-4ft is pretty good size. I intend to plant mine in about 4-6 gallon pots. I might grow one in the raised bed if there was enough space.

Three more months until I get into action of germinating. I've all the seeds, equipment, supplies and some experience to go along. We shall see how the weather plays the next season.

Sey

OK, you've inspired me Sey… I'm trying Purple Heart and Uluru Ochre this season.

I'm not much of a cherry tomato fan, I like bigger tomatoes with great flavor. We tend to have cooler summers here, with our hot weather arriving September/October. Any ideas for dwarf varieties that do well in cooler weather?

And in general, if any of you dwarf lovers have other recommendations for plants that produce larger tomatoes, I'd love to hear them!

mlissca(9b)
Any ideas for dwarf varieties that do well in cooler weather?

_________________________________________

I can suggest a few more dwarfs: We have cool weather, especially at nights.

1- Hahms Gelbe Topftomato : (Long German name for a micro dwarf . lol). It is about 10-12" height, golden cherry .... tasty ... ornamental ... very early ( I will grow it again ). All it needs is a 2-3 gallon pot. Perfect for patio, next to flowers.

2- Rosella Crimson: I grew it this year. It was pretty good.

3- Rosella Purple: I have not grown it, but those who have, like it even better

than Crimson.

I am not growing them because I want to try something new, like NBD. But I might go back to them.

Another One:

Indigo Rose: Not called "Dwarf" but it grew the same size as my dwarfs in 4 gallon pot. Very prolific and early too. Besides everything else, it is ornamental. I will grow Indigo Apple next year in its place.

Sey

Zone 9b you don't get much cool weather do you? I would think you can grow any variety in season, unless you have some micro climate I'm not understanding the reason .

I'm still looking for new big dwarf seeds. I seen several new dwarf project seeds on Tatiana s site. Will check them out after holidays.

chigardenlady… SF bay area. Strangest 9b zone you will ever see. Year round gardening, moderate climate, but chilly, foggy late afternoons and evenings in the "standard" summer (current from Alaska) and hot weather in September and October. And yet, still 9b.

mllsca, Is 9b your Sunset zone, or USDA?

USDA according to plant maps.com. Actually, I'm borderline 10a when you enter the zip code of my community garden plot at the USDA site.

@chigardenlady, I saw new big dwarf seeds at victory seed.

Oh I like their seeds that's where I got my dwarf purple heart last year. They are quite expensive, like everywhere else. I'm going to try not to grow too many tomatoes this year but I do want to try a few new dwarfs. I liked the purple hearts alot. Was going to put in an order at Tatiana s they have large variety and most are 250 a pack. Wish they had a catalog, trying to look through online is very time consuming. Have gotten a few seed cats already and haven't seen any dwarf seeds.

From Craig's latest newsletter:

Huge News - the release of 24 more Dwarf tomatoes from our breeding project!

It is so exciting to realize that due to the efforts of our world-wide, all volunteer Dwarf Tomato Breeding Project team (for which much more information can be found here, a grand total of 60 varieties represent our creations. Gardeners who need to grow in containers will now have options such as the brilliant orange Loxton Lass, Brandywine relative TastyWine (similar in every way except plant height), and heart-shaped Dwarf Lemon Ice and Dwarf Scarlet Heart, among many others.

Thanks Jennie. Now I have narrowed down some more dwarf seeds to search for. I am planning now to utilize many of my root pouch pots this year.

This is great.

I think dwarfs in general are very efficient tomato plants, in terms land resource usage. In a 9 sq-ft area of a single aggressive indeterminant you can plant 2 or even 3 dwarfs, with less work. This way you have more flexibility to grow many more varieties in a limited space.

Sey

I should have included from the newsletter the seed companies carrying the seeds for the new dwarfs. "Four intrepid seed companies strongly support this project, for which we are so grateful. A search of the companies' websites will confirm which particular varieties are available. The companies are Victory Seeds, Tatiana's TOMATObase, Heritage Seed Market, and Sample Seed Shop. ".

You folks have me convinced. I've added a third and am now jumping on the bandwagon with Purple Heart, Uluru Ochre and Cherokee Tiger Large Red.

Questions for all you dwarf tomato lovers:

1) For indeterminate varieties, about how many fruits were produced at a time, on average? Three? More?

2) I am planning on using earthboxes for the dwarf plants… anyone have experiences with dwarf plants in those?

3) I have heard that the plants can grow taller than advertised when placed in the ground or a raised bed… if that has happened to anyone, how much taller are we talking?

4) Are the seedlings smaller than a standard tomato, or just slower growing to a smaller height? Should they be transplanted earlier than I would a standard determinate seedling?

ETA: 5) Anyone try Rainbow Dwarf? I ordered that seed but don't have room for it.

I am inspired too! I had no idea there were other dwarves! I got exclusively in earthboxes and Gardener's Supply self-watering planters. I just ordered;

Dwarf Blazing Beauty Tomato

$2.45
Chocolate Lightning Dwarf Tomato

$2.45
Adelaide Festival Tomato

$2.45
Boronia Dwarf Tomato

$2.45
BrandyFred Dwarf Tomato

$2.45
Dwarf Golden Heart Tomato

$2.45
Dwarf Purple Heart Tomato

$2.45

Fred's Tie Dye Tomato

From Victory

It's a copy and paste, so I couldn't format it.

On the Dwarfs' size :

1) Pink Passion and Rosella Crimson were under 3ft. (Think they were dets)

2) Purple Heart was about 5 ft. I believe it is indet.

3) Hahms Gelbe T, was about 10 inches tall. Real micro

Sey

I have heard of them getting taller. Perhaps when people use lots of aged horse manure? The six dwarfs that I grew in the ground last year were all about 4-5 feet tall, with the exception of Arctic Rose which remained at 3 feet. It is also an early variety.

Linda

Just got the Hahms from you grow girl for inside my house. I was thinking about setting up an indoor grow light for year round basil. But a ten inch tomato plant is hard to resist.

You guys are killing me. I'm eyeing NBD and rosella crimson now.

mlissca(9b ,

I have started HGT on 1/15/16. That is almost 50 days earlier than normal.

Here is a picture @ 2 weeks later.

I pulled the weak one (in the back) . The other 3 are doing great an have 2 true leaves. In a week or so I will re pot them individually.

Last year I grew one on regular schedule . It was the first to have ripe tomato.

The picture was taken some time in mid June.

Sey

I grew Hahms Gelbe and Red Robins in one gallon containers this winter. Both did very well and were loaded with fruit, but I think I still prefer the taste of Red Robin.

Linda

What kind of fruit does Red Robin produce? Is it a micro-dwarf? I'm now interested in keeping micro-dwarfs going indoors year round. Dang you guys are killing me!

Ok… now I am interested in early, dwarf plants and micro-dwarfs… lay some titles on me. Pictures welcome!

Red Robin is a micro-dwarf which can be grown in a one-gallon container. It produces red cherry tomatoes. Hahms Gelbe tomftomate is perfectly happy in a slightly smaller container. It produces yellow tomatoes. I just ate a REALLY ripe HGT and it was tasty!

Linda

Some early compacts (red cherries), which will grow fine in 2-gallon containers:

Jagodka

Early Annie

Pipo

Russian Cherry

Linda

How many dwarf plants do you think I could grow in a standard earth box? I was thinking one but do you think I could get away with two?

Two I should think!

Linda

mlissca(9b)

How
many dwarf plants do you think I could grow in a standard earth box? I
was thinking one but do you think I could get away with two?

-------------

I don't know how big EB is, especially length wise. If they normally plant 2 indets in it, you should be able to do 3 dwarfs, depending on the varieties of dwarfs. It is not so much for the space and food, but it is the head room for the foliage. So maybe you can use small 3-ring cages, one for each and try to trim some of the leaf branches. I grow my dwarfs in 4 -6 gallon containers (pots and fabric bags )

Sey

I've grown NBD in self-watering containers the last two years. First year was one in an old square one from Gardener's supply. I mention old, because they don't make this one anymore, and I don't know how much soil or water it holds. That plant did well, and it was HUGE! At least six feet tall, at least two feet around. There is a picture upthread. In the picture it is to the left, just behind a full sized table that is about three feet high. You can't quite see the top of the plaht, but in the planter it is bigger than my son, who is six feet tall. Last year I put two in an EB. Did okay, not nearly as well. I ended up pulling one, I think from some disease. There may have been other factors at play.

@Sey, does the HGT take longer to germinate? I started mine a week ago, and nothing has happened so far. Usually I see something within a week with standard tomatoes.

@ mlissca(9b) ....
does the HGT take longer to germinate?

No different from other variety. I think partly it depends on :

-- temperatures

-- how deep you sow them.

-- how consistently you keep the soil moist (NOT wet !)

I think one week is about average. Last time I got them poke in about 5 days.

Just be patient. If the seeds are not rot , will come up eventually.

BTW: I had 100% germination rate.

Sey

My HGT did not germinate. I am going to try again today, along with Cherokee Tiger Red, Fred's Tie Dye and Rosella Purple.

What happened ,mllssca ? Did you get them germinate ?

I killed my early ones (damping off !!) and tried again. Onw I have just one HGT plant that has buds on it.

And here is my twin DPH in 7 Gallon fabric bag.

Sey

Updates from my Dwarf project! Shortest plant is probably Purple Heart at about 4 feet. Also the earliest and most prolific. Tallest is Chocolate Lightning at least 7 feet and still growing.

NBD up front , Adelaide Festival and ? just behind it, Scotch Bonnet to the right. Dwarf Purple heart in the center, Fred's Tie Dye, to the left, and Dwarf Blazing Beauty to the left of that. More scotch bonnets....Dwarf Golden Heart on the left, BrandyFred on the right.
Dwarf Purple heart
Adelaide Festival, none ripe, but they are pretty when green.NBD.....and scotch bonnets!

Boronia and Chocolate Lightning on the left, 6 piquillo peppers on rightDwarf Purple heart! Two shapes.That's Chocolate Lightning in the back. Lots of cracking on striped tomatoes, so I'm picking early. .

Through my kitchen window.