Axier, I would pose this question directly to Four Winds on their Facebook page. I think they are moving away to some degree, from using Cuban Shaddock, if my memory serves me correctly. I'd be interested to see what their response is to your question.

Patty S.

I believe that the they call it dwarf because of its traits when grown in a container - but certainly would defer to FW's comment!

I have a Meyer and a Moro on CS and in the ground. I hate them because of poor cold tolerance and slow growth rate.

The Meyer is (still) on life support after the 2013 freezes (latent branch/cambium damage - as well as severe rootstock split) and the Moro took 3 years to get traction and produce much growth. Now 5 years old and only 5-6 ft. high at the tops of the vertical shoots.

- CS is banned from any of my future plantings. - George

I will email directly to FWG regarding this matter.

Probably they are tired of answering this question but I don't understand why they don't explain more clearly in their web site about the rootstocks used.

If I receive an interesting reply, I will update this post with it.

- CS is banned from any of my future plantings. -

My experience with grafted fruit trees has left me with a very high mortality rate due to wrong rootstock. I grow from seed now and have successfully grafted the bigger twig-ed varieties that I want. Orchardist get their trees for little over a dollar each and by the time I pay $45 for a whip that has at best a 50% survival rate I have lost my derriere. I am so fed-up with grafted trees. I will stick to seed grown and annuals and buy my other fruit variety at the orchard.

Steve

I have just received the reply from FWG.

I have asked for the subject of my above post and a particular interest in knowing the rootstock of Genoa Lemon, bought in FWG recently by an American friend of mine.

This is all I have received as reply: "Yes, grafted on Cuban Shaddock"

No mention to my other questions.

In fact, those were all the words in the mail, not more, not even a "hello"...

Well, you know a thing more, Genoa is graftted on CS...

Although they [FWG] do use allot of the CS, i do have an (FWG) Australian Finger Lime (on volk) that is performing very well.

We just have to determine how well the rootstock performs in the growing conditions available, and probably more importantly with the specific cultivar. CS may be a winner for your conditions / needs. - George

considering Harris has $13 flat rate shipping for what appears to me to be about 2 year trees and Four winds charges close to $30 I know who I will continue to buy from.

I would consider them "dwarf"ish. 4.46 meters is approx. 14 feet and a full grown standard Valencia orange can get up to 30 feet and taller, about 9 meters or more, I'd say it was somewhat dwarfing. But perhaps semi-dwarf would be a better description.

In that study, CS is bigger than vigorous rootstocks like Volkameriana.

It is verified, in other studies, that Valencia orange on Volk. rootstock produce vigorous trees, rather more vigorous than, for example, citrange Carrizo, considered an standard rootstock.

CS semi-dwarfing? every day I am more convinced that not.

Apart from Flying Dragon, which is a true dwarfing rootstock, most remaining rootstocks produce a size between 75% to 100%, assuming citrange Carrizo like standard.

In my opinion, the adaptability of a rootstock for container growing, has more influence in the size.

Maybe, CS when growing in a container tends to be smaller.

Is FW A container citrus company. Most orchards get their trees in bulk around a dollar or 2. No orchard could pay as much as FW charges and stay in business. This may determine what rootstock FW uses. It will be a trade secret so they won't tell us.

Steve

Axier, I think you have worked it out for yourself. There is no truly dwarfing rootstock other than flying dragon or those on citrange rootstocks innoculated with exocortis. Other claims are just marketing spin.

As you have gathered, depending on the scion, the tree more or less in the ground will approach full size. Even C35 which is often touted as semi dwarfing still produces decent size trees. For this, some but not all scions may result in a tree 75-80% of those on Carrizo, but still a decent size tree.

Steve,Z; Four Winds is primarily a wholesaler that only sells to retail garden centers in CA, and sells to the general public by mail order. Most of the people who buy their trees are going to plant them in containers.

You are right, an orchard owner will not be buying trees from Four Winds Growers, but orchard owners are not their customers.

And their root stocks are not a trade secret, they use Cuban Shaddock on most of their trees, they use Flying Dragon on a very few select varieties, that's all they use. It says so on their web site. They're not keeping secrets from anyone.

Bounty, from what I read, even an standard rootstock like Carrrizo, when grown in a container, produces a manageable dwarf tree.

So, it is more decisive for dwarfing the use of containers than the rootstock variety (except for the true dwarf FD).

Other issue is that a rootstock is easier to grow in pots than others. Maybe this is the case of CS...

I'm glad Carrizo produces a manageable dwarf tree when grown in a container as I just bought a Meyer Lemon on it last week and plan to do just that!

Bahama Dan, careful not to keep it too wet; Carrizo is quite intolerant of wet feet; and also quite susceptible to Phytophera... not usually a problem in containers.

I have 30 citrus in containers and have not found any difference in the growth rate of trees marked standards and semi-dwarf. I think the containers limit the size more than the rootstock does. There are also variations in size according to the cultivar. A Meyer Lemon is not going to get large, no matter what!

Bear in mind that 10-12 feet tall and wide is small for an in ground citrus in general.

Also , I don't have any trees in containers smaller thanthe white pot in the post above. Typical is a 20" double rim italian terracotta pot weiging around 200 pounds with mix and plant. I would think that small pot will limit the tree to 4-5 feet above the pot at which point you will neet to root prune.

John Do you know what qualities Kuharske Citrange has. I have a Meiwa kumquat on K.C. and 2 sucker rooting for grafting purposes.

Steve

Noted with thanks Johnmerr. That disease is caused by a fungus correct? I'm wondering since I usually acidify my irrigation water with sulfuric acid, and fungi don't like sulfur, if that would help discourage the disease? None of my citrus have ever 'seemed' to be overwatered at least as far as I know, although I do have to use a fairly heavy and moisture retentive mix due to our terrific rate of evaporation here (and presumably transpiration).

Yep, Phytophera is a fungus/mold; it most commonly comes from surface water, as in flooding from a creek or river. In some areas/soils it is endemic in the soil; but I have not known it affecting container plants, unless the potting soil is native earth, unsterilized in which the pathogen already exists.

Old thread but just wanted to say that the sucker that came out of one of my trees from FW (I believe it was the Kieffer) locked exactly like the one in the picture from Cory. Just don't see the huge spikes mine had.