Oh, please don't get discouraged. It is going to be a great kitchen. Imagine the smell of that gluten free apple pie baking in your fabulous kitchen right now!

I do feel like that long run of cabinets needs something break it up. 28' plus is really long!

What if you put the two tall pantries on either sides of the fridge/freezer. This moves fridge down a little to fit in the one pantry on the left side, End the kitchen run there.

This actually puts the pantries in a more accessible spot for much on your list. Plus, flanking the fridge will make it look built in and have a finished end look.

Then I'd buy a separate big gorgeous hutch with the $$ savings in cabinetry. I have seen some huge beautiful ones in antique stores. Separate the space by leaving some wall space between where the kitchen cabinet run ends and the hutch. Maybe centered on rest of wall to the back door or across from fireplace.

I would have it a totally different color or finish then the kitchen cabinets. Tie it in visually more to the family room. Yet, technically it serves the same function you had before in storing all those dishes, serving platters, tea sets, etc on your list.

I don't know, just a thought to break up that long wall yet still give you the storage you need. Whatcha think?

"... left to right (clear plate on left, rinse in sink, dishwasher on right)..."

Is that your current setup? If so, that's why you're thinking that way. In reality, we adapt to what we have.

Some people swear that if you're right handed you have to have the DW on the right and others swear you have to have it on the left. But, it's just what you have - you adapt. No one side is inherently better than the other. The same goes for a trash pullout.

Reading that other thread, it looks like a lot was lost with the Houzz takeover - all the layouts I did (4 of them!) are missing!

*sigh*

Anyway, this was the layout of the space sans cabinets, etc.

If you're interested, I can repost them either in this thread or the older one...let me know. They may no longer be relevant if 3ilovepie is set on the layout as she posted it in her original post.

Yes, please do! Thank you.

That would be great, I'd love to see the other layout ideas too. I always learn something new. Plus it will fix the broken thread. :-)

OK...here they are! I'm gong to post #4 first, b/c I think that was the "favorite", except with the ovens & refrigerator switched and with a smaller refrigerator.

Layout #4:

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Layout #4 Zone Map:

.

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Now, the others, in order:

Layout #1:

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Layout #2:

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Layout #3:

.

I can't fix the the posts in the other thread b/c you cannot edit any posts prior to the Houzz takeover...or any more than a few days old for newer threads.

I probably should have just posted them in the other thread, but I didn't want to bump it up since this is the active thread and I didn't want to cause confusion about what thread to post on going forward.

Good call. No need to be going back and forth between threads too. Thanks will check them out shortly.

3ilovepie - any chance you can post your elevations of the drawings into a floorplan with measurements.. From looking at buehls plans and then your top view of what you have planned it looks like your DW is going to open right into where you would be standing at the cooktop.

With the switch of the fridge and the ovens has the pantry to the left of the now ovens become wider ( was 12" beside a 36" fridge but it is now beside a 30" oven and so now is it 18"?) Three narrow pantries is a lot of wasted interior space and expensive.

yes, I've asked the kd for measurements. I hope to get them soon - but seeing as this drawing took 4 weeks - Im not sure how soon they will come.

As for dw and range top - one ends just as the other begins.

Buehl, thank you for adding your drawings.

Thanks Buehl. I see the difference from the original plans.

You liked the oven/fridge switch of # 4, but switched from a normal size 36" fridge to the bigger 6' subzero type fridge. You also seems to be building in some sort of a narrow row house lot with no windows on the long sides and restriction on size.

Since you have such specific needs and space restrictions, I say go unconventional. Make the space work to fit YOUR needs. I look forward seeing anyone's brilliant ideas for you. You actually are so close already. But, maybe someone (beuhl?) will have some ideas?

Buehl, I forgot to answer the left to right flow... My DH who does nothing in the kitchen but will do dishes has requested that it be left to right. And to be honest - I am so thankful he takes on the dinner dishes that I want no reason for him to avoid the task. Our house (that we tore down to build this new one) was right to left and he constantly complained. Our rental is left to right - and he claims it is easier.

I agree with you that its not such a big deal...the house I lived in before we got married required me to walk two steps to load the dishwasher! It was a hassle - but doable.

The island is an easy tweak - so I will bring it up again to see what he says.

I understand the DH & DW dilemma. My DH makes so few requests whenever we remodel or redecorate that I usually give him what he wants as I feel guilty getting all I really want but not giving him anything. I do agree that, in your floorplan, switching the DW to other side of the sink makes the most sense. Could you do this? Put a 24" cabinet on the left side of the sink. Later on, if it is apparent that the DW on the right is causing problems and he is amenable to making a change, it will be very easy to switch them around.

I love Buehl's plans but I also think your KD's plan is about 95% great. Just a few tweaks and you should be done. I know this has been a long and frustrating process for you. Hope you can learn to enjoy it. You gotta go through it anyway, right?, so you might as well try to have fun with it.

blfenton - the scale on the layout is 1 box = 6"x6". It should be pretty close as it was taken from the previous thread.

It doesn't, of course, mean their the same as the KD's.

You're right, though, an overhead layout of the KD's plan may better show 3ilovepie's DH the issue we're all bringing up. It's not like it's one lone voice in the wilderness - it's a choir!

3ilovepie - regarding your DH's insistence on putting the DW in a dangerous spot -yes, dangerous - dangerous to someone trying to cook in that space. With all three primary work zones in such a small space, you have to be very careful how you place things. Perhaps if you explain to your DH why it makes more sense to move both the DW and the trash pullout , he might understand. Use "technical" terms - most men are more receptive to technical-type talk.

The other option is to redo the entire design and figure out a way around your DH's inflexibility.

The "work zones" and "aisle widths, etc." FAQs explain much of this. Would he be willing to read them? If not, maybe you could read them and then tell him about good kitchen design. Here are the relevant FAQs:

• Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

There's also a storage FAQ. While it's not relevant to the DW/trash pullout issues, it may be helpful to you later:

• How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

Is that a 6' true built-in refrigerator? Or is it counter- or standard-depth?

Just to clarify - I'm all for letting your DH have his way since he cleans up - as long as it does not jeopardize the functionality of the space. I did something similar.

My DH also cleans up and I let him have his way for certain things, but not if it meant making the space less functional. I discussed it with him and he understood. So, I had the final say on the layout, but I let him choose the sink and the DW - oh, and the side of the sink for the TV since he likes to watch TV while eating breakfast in the morning as well as while he does dishes. Our Cleanup Zone is across a 6' aisle from the Prep & Cooking Zones, so the TV does not get in the way of prepping (or cleaning up since we have a good bit of counterspace on each side of the sink in the Cleanup Zone.)

Are you putting in a banquette at the "bottom"? (Like in Layout #4.)

Figuring out what goes where is an important part of the process, and well worth the time spent. Two things to consider are frequency of use, and point of use. You have a lot of space, but if it isn't used efficiently, the kitchen won't work well. For everything on this list, you'll have things you use every day, which should occupy your prime real estate, and things used less often than can go on upper shelves or to the right of the fridge.

Here are my thought on your list:

-plates (large, side...), bowls - I would put them near the DW - probably to the right of the stove. The drawers on the island are also perfect for dishes.

-dessert dishes - how often are they used? If every day, with the rest of the dishes. If once a month, right of the stove.

-serving platters, trays - lots of people put vertical dividers above the oven for these items.

- glasses, mugs, tea set - upper cabinets by fridge

-flatware, knives, utensils - I'd put flatware across from the DW, cooking utensils to the left of the stove, and a knife inset in the top drawer of the island. Make sure you have a place for potholders near both the cooktop and ovens.

- measuring tools, pots, pans, lids, mixing bowls - this is where the lovely drawers in the corner come in to play. Consider where you will use things.

- storage containers - I keep mine in a drawer.

- casserole dishes/ cookware - drawers/uppers near the ovens

- spices, oils, flour, baking supplies - I keep spices/oils in the upper next to the stove - I had my cabinet maker put a spice rack in the inside of a cabinet door. I keep canisters of flour, sugar, rice, oats, pasta, etc in a drawer (with labels on the tops of the canisters, so I know what's what).

- canned goods, jarred goods, pantry items - I don't have a pantry, so most mine are in an upper cabinet in the prep zone. Big things like cereal boxes go above the fridge (which isn't an option in your kitchen).

As for your gf things - this is completely going to depend on how much you have, and how far apart from the "regular" kitchen stuff you want to be. Those three drawers on the island might be perfect; perhaps you can have designated drawers on the other side. I might do somethings like using a different drawer pull of know to quickly identify gf storage

And then of course our mixer, crock pot, blender and processor. - I would treat the cabinets to the right of the fridge as pantry. I'd use drawers instead of cabinets, and put small appliances there.

Split up that massive refrigerator and freezer. Nothing says that they have to be located together. It's the dominant feature of the entire space, to the entire open space's detriment, unfortunately. 6' of stainless is going to BE THERE even if you split it up. Maybe figure out another appliance decision.

Let's not get too stuck on stainless as I was told by another GW member about panels I could put on that could be decorative or a chalk board surface.

I'm really more interested in storage, flow, best use....

On an interesting note, at lunch I mentioned how useful prepping directly over where I could clear waste away would be useful. I don't have dh totally on board but he did acknowledge I'm doing prep more often than he is doing dishes. :-)

AnnKH those are all exactly the types of things I need to figure out! Thanks!

Are those 36'' Sub Zero's then? 16K worth f fridge/freezer? Regular non panel ready models like the Frigidaire twins won't accept panels.

These are icon twins. Panels are not typical SZ panels. I am well aware they won't accept a SZ panel. Between artwork, team ribbons and the panel/decal there will not be so much stainless.

Again, that's not really my concern in this discussion.

Buehl, yes to banquette seating. Have not decided exactly what it will look like or what I will store in seats - but it will be there. It was an awesome idea - thank you!

Put the fridgenext to the wall oven. And put the additional pantry next to the freezer. That mkes for better workflow, as well as for a better snack zone. The MW above an oven away from the fridge is the worst location possible for it because it creates cross zone traffic.

Plus, I agree about the giant visual mass issue. It wouldn't matter if it were an integrted Sub Zero, 6' of anythng is a lot to ask anyone to not have be in your face feeling. It's just too overwhelming for the size of the kitchen.

I agree on breaking up the fridge/freezer columns. And I would make the counter area currently to the right of them a beverage/snack center. Put the microwave there, beverage supplies, glassware and mugs, a small set of bowls and plates, basic utensils, and, most important to make this work well, a small sink.

I would store the blender, processor, mixer and crockpot near where you use them. If you move the microwave out of the main work zone, you should be able to create space there for a cabinet or appliance garage or even a deep drawer to store these in. For me, the crockpot gets the least use, maybe once a week, so that could be in cabinets farther away and carried over when needed. I would not want to have to carry my heavy mixer around the kitchen. And I use my blender daily so I would feel the same about that.

As AnnKH said, think about where you use things and have them stored as close to that place as possible if you use them often. If not used often, they can be stored farther away.

curious, how much storage would I lose below if i added a sink?

(also - no microwave - it should be a double oven. we don't own a microwave).

Oh, ok. I still think I'd either make space for an appliance garage or some other way to store your most frequently used small appliances someplace in or very near your prep area. I think the space to the right of your double-ovens would be perfect for that.

Well, you would still have some storage under the sink. Just a different kind of storage. If you found one with a drain offset toward the back, you could have drawers under that don't go back all the way so they allow drain clearance. I know some beverage sinks are only about 15" so you wouldn't lose much if you went with one that small. However, I've never had a beverage sink so I don't know how usable those smaller ones are. I think it's a question to ask for more info. I suspect a 15" would be fine if it's limited to making beverages and washing hands. It might be tight if you ever wanted to use that area for secondary prep. I think I've read that 18" is considered the smallest usable sink for prepping but I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly. I am going with a fairly wide 24" prep sink so I didn't pay much attention to that issue when doing my planning. Wish I had a more knowledgeable answer for you.

I think you have abundant storage so I don't think you would miss whatever you'd lose with a sink. And I think the advantages would outweigh that small amount of lost storage. But, of course, you really need to assess that for yourself.

For storage ideas, check out the following FAQ:

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

Just a random comment - if you are planning on displaying artwork and ribbons on the fridge, check whether the one you want is magnetic. Stainless fridges usually aren't except on the sides. Otherwise you will be stuck cleaning tape residue off your fridge all the time :/

Buehl, awesome amount of help in that link. Am I wrong for thinking kd should help with some of this?

I'm not positive about the magnetic factor - but not too worried as our last refrigerator wasn't magnetic and my DH customized a little work around (that included heavy duty adhesive). It's not to everyone's liking - but our boys are young and really light up when we display their work.

I've almost convinced DH to flip trash and dw. A work in progress.... Which likely means he will make a decision elsewhere in kitchen design ( did I mention he chose our range top - he cooks about 1/month).

Question about the corner in the L. What are the best ways to use those spaces? I'd like to effectively use all the space possible.

Thoughts on these....

[Corner drawers[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/shaker-grey-transitional-kitchen-phvw-vp~88208)

[Pull out[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-pantry-systems-contemporary-kitchen-perth-phvw-vp~9771077)

An update....

DH has agreed to the dw switch. Yay!!

And we've been putting more thought into putting one of the icons next to the ovens. My question is - does it still make sense if it has to be the freezer that moves? ( initial research says that door swing doesn't change). And the other question is about my ovens that have a side swing door. If the ovens move over - then do I have them swing open to left or right? Yes, we will put the 3rd tall cabinet over to where freeze was and lengthen counter.

Thoughts?

Give DH a big pat on the back. :)

If it's the one on the right side, fridge will be fine staying where it
is--you still have good fridge-->sink/prep-->cooktop flow. I'm
assuming freezer will be on the outside, ovens to the right. In that
case, I'd have the oven doors swing left to right--opposite the freezer
door swing. Just make sure they won't be hitting the cabinets on the right side.

**Editing to add: After checking measurements of available space, I think this creates a safety/burn issue. See my next post.**

Ok, we finally have measurements (in metric).

Before we split the icon twins - I want to ask if that is our best bet and how to edit the space.

Reminder - and so you don't have to scroll... 10 ft ceiling with 1 ft bulk head above cabinets.

My thoughts, on the long wall replace freezer with a tall cabinet, move range top of to centre of the stretch (between corner and new tall cabinet), add a le mans peanut to the corner.

The short wall, add freezer to left and move ovens over.

I think the island looks ok ( will work on adding some style features)

Question, for a chefs pantry - should the cabinet be full height?

I'm more comfortable with measurements in inches--your twins are 186cm
or 73.23". Half of that number is 36.61". The space available on the
short wall is 100cm or 39.37". As the elevation is drawn, it looks as if
the right side countertop overhang has been considered. 39.37 - 36.61 = 2.76" (7cm).
Will 2.76" be enough room to open the bottom oven door--accounting for
the door handle, and your hand? How far does the handle protrude? Looks as if it hits right at the counter.

Intuitively,
I would want to open the side-swing oven doors left to right, as I
suggested in my previous post, and pivot, using the island as landing
space, but you might not have enough room for the bottom oven door. Can
they swing right to left? Which means you're stuck in the corner, unable
to fully pivot, awkwardly using the right counter as landing space
(although it is a shorter distance), unless the oven door will open
180°, which means that you can pivot left to the island, or take a half
step left to pivot right, to use the counter. But the freezer door
handle might interfere with opening the oven door all the way to the
left. Will the oven doors open downward? In that case you'd be removing
hot items from the left side, and pivoting to the island. If you always slide the oven rack forward when removing a hot item, or inserting a pan in a preheated oven, ymmv.

Find
a corner, mock it up with painter's tape, and see how it feels. I think
you will adjust your movements to suit either situation, but you don't
want to create a safety issue. Adding: Even if you could open the bottom oven door 90° to the right, with the rack extended, I think the door will be **too close** to your right arm--instinctively, you'll raise your elbows when lifting a heavy pan, guaranteeing a burn. So, open right to left, or downward--at least for the bottom oven door.

Other than the issue of DW
placement in the island, I don't recall weighing in on the fridge and
freezer locations. IMO, it's a kitchen--no one but you, and your family
and friends, will be looking at your kitchen, unless you are on the
local tour of homes, or your architect/designer wants to bring
prospective clients to view his work. The twins are functional as
drawn--I'd leave them.

(Oh yeah, all your GW friends will be looking, too.) :]

I checked the NKBA guidelines, but couldn't find info on wall oven placement (other than landing space recommendations).

About the counter in the pantry--will it be a work space? By chef's pantry, do you mean a pantry cabinet--the kind that has shelves on the doors? I think I'm behind the times--I had to look up chef's pantry and LeMans peanut!

Another question--is the wall on the left side of the short section load bearing? Could you do an end panel enclosure, instead of a framed wall? If so, that would gain a few inches, although I don't know if it would be enough.

Enclosed fridge images

I like enclosed refrigerator. I'm not sold on separating the icons - but it was suggested - and I'm so frustrated by this room that I am open to trying something .... (I've got a post in home decorating that I'd be grateful to get some feedback on too).

You are right, at the end of the day this kitchen and home are for our family and our specific needs... Just don't want it to look so functional....I always wanted a pretty kitchen.

Do you plan to use the Bosch Benchmark ovens? I checked the specs/features, and the ovens are meant to be installed flush with the cabinets. The freezer door (or fridge door, for that matter) will need to extend beyond the cabinet enclosure, so that's another obstacle to a right to left swing.

Your kitchen will be pretty--the dish hutch-style section with glass doors will be gorgeous. And you always have this option ;)

Mama g, thank you for the guidance and levity.

So, I think splitting the icons is not going to be as feasible as leaving them on the long wall. And rather than cover them with the royals - I'll cover with art from my boys.

I will be thankful when I am in my home and this is all done!

I'm sure you've explored this option, but if you used a range rather
than a cooktop, and a single oven beside the freezer on the short wall,
would that work? Maybe slightly above countertop height for the oven,
with drawers below?

You can always cover them with cabinet panels? I think once it's all in, it will look fine either way. You want the bosch ovens to open so when open you can put the hot dishes onto the counter next to the ovens so you'll need them to have the handle on the right side and swing to the left.

No, those cannot be paneled. You would need to move to a different class of refrigerator in order to get ones that accept panels. Also, being stainless they are not magnetic, so no art, unless you tape it up, leaving ugly residue issues. You can probably do a graphics wrap on them, but that's not cheap, nor magnetic.

The refrigerator / freezer set are icons. They are not panel ready (we chose to get the size we need and not go with SZ - funds we saved are being used to create a home gym for our son with needs).

To put an end to the discussion of displaying our children's art - I called Electrolux. They are magnetic.

Here's the short wall with side panel, instead of framed wall, and double ovens on the outside. The freezer looks awkward to me--to open the top door, you'd need to grasp the handle then step back, but at least there wouldn't be a chance of burns, and you probably don't spend much time with the door open. Another issue is that it creates a cave in the corner, either way.

Yes, I agree it does look odd. Ok, back 100% to keeping the icons together. Thank you, mama g for the mock up - I am such a visual person.

I know you want a pretty kitchen but no amount of prettiness can disguise a dysfunctional kitchen.

Prettiness comes from the jewelry part of the kitchen - the pulls and knobs, the backsplash, the counter, the lighting. You're already planning a buffet/hutch (I think that's still in the plans?) with glass doors, you could do a wood counter and really dress it up with glass knobs, etc.

Speaking of which - what kind of counter are you doing?

Counters are quartz (gc has budgeted for some of the ceaserstone classic choices) we are toying with darker grey along the perimeter and lighter on island, We are thinking white cabinets on walls and something darker for island.

Yes, we can pretty up the buffet/hutch unit. I'm going to make the glass ca bents come down to the counter and have the bottom be a bank of drawers in the middle and a 1 door cabinet each end.

Late to the party, but here are a few thoughts.

Did you lose the pocket door to the kitchen? A swing door opening against the powder room could get you back a few inches in the kitchen.

Have you considered a 48" range rather than a rangetop and wall ovens? Seems that counter space is precious in your house, maybe something to think about.

Maybe think about adding a door to the backyard so that there is a straight shot from the dining room through?

I like the idea of having a defined "food" space and a separate "family room" space. Is that idea dead?

OK, this is against the conventional wisdom but if you decide to go with the defined space approach, maybe consider having a narrow table for eating in place of the island. You could make what is now designated breakfast area into cleanup and dish storage/snack storage, with a big window over the sink. 48" range on the short wall, Elux twins at top by family room, and add a prep/pots&pans sink in between. I am just thinking that might make it easier to get dishes to the dining room.

If you keep the island and the proposed "big wall/one room" kitchen, I'd want to get rid of the island seating and use the back of the island for storage.

Good luck!