I would not refer to it as builder grade to the floor rep. I would call it seconds that are filled to be sold cheaply. Calling it builder grade implies that it is normal builder quality material, that is generally acceptable without being top quality. If yours has a lot of fill I would call it lower than builder grade. I would not go down the road of nit picking every flaw because it is stone. There will be variations. Your issue ( I think) is that the amount of filler is far too excessive, particularly since you were expecting very little or none.

So we met with the floor company's representative today for both the stone bathroom, and the octagon dot bathroom. Somebody representing the builder also came though we didn't know he would be there. The floor rep mostly noted down our issues and agreed that there were 4 or so cracked tiles.

Powder room (there are about 15 (18 x 18) tiles in total): 4 cracked tiles (2 under the cabinet, one behind the toilet, one behind the door for the powder room). The rep saw this today and agreed they were cracked. The location of these cracked tiles makes me think that they knew the tiles were cracked when they installed. Rest, say 7 or so are filled in, the fill ins vary in size and can be felt when I touch the tile (they are not embedded). The other few have veins that can be felt. So, basically every tile has something going on.

Master bath (there are about 50 or so [18 x 18 tiles] in total): 1 is clearly cracked and rep agreed. In other 8 to 10 veins can be felt. Rest, 25(50%) or so of them have fill-ins that can be seen and touched, again varying in size.

The rep has not really committed to anything yet, he just noted down the issues. Another meeting is scheduled on Friday with the manager to come over and look at it with the same rep.

I understand that marble is a stone and has a variation and some fill ins are expected. Though I don't have much knowledge about marble - having cracked tiles and so many tiles with fill ins and veins that can be felt damages the final look of the product.

Keep going at them. You are about half way through the process. Ask toatsmygoats about her "fun" with her granite. It took MONTHS for her to get a satisfactory completion to her concerns.

You might want to ask for a walk through in other homes from this builder (you said there are several s/he is doing right now). It might give you a better perspective as to how s/he operates...and whether or not you are the only one who ended up with a less than perfect marble floor.

This is the summary of problems:

Of the 40 or so marble tiles in master bath: 3 are cracked, 17 have visible fill-ins, 6 are chipped a little along the edges, so edge is not straight, 2 have white scratches, 1 has level difference between the two adjacent tiles

There are about 12 tiles the toilet: 3 are cracked, 7 have visible fill ins, 1 has a white scratch

I have not included tiles in which veins can be felt or are separated, there are a few but I got tired of counting.

Downstairs bath: of about 17 tiles, 3 have cracks, 5 or so have fill-ins, 3 or so have vein separation

We are meeting with the manager tomorrow morning, and they are open to individually replace the tiles we have concerns with. Yesterday, we met with the field manager. Given the number of problem tiles and that the whole floor may have come from seconds or reject lot, does complete reinstall with good quality tiles preferred or replacing the tiles individually a better way to go?. What is reasonable to ask the floor company to do?

At this point, you can shoot for the moon. If you don't make it you will at least end up amongst the stars.

If they can offer individual tile replacement with identical looking tiles (without the defects...obviously) then that is probably all they will offer. If they can't source the product anymore (either the product is no longer in that colour/tone or the entire product line is considered seconds) then full removal has to happen. If they plunk in any old colour of marble, they KNOW you will come back at them wanting it fixed again. So it is in their best interest to fix it the first time. You might want to point this out: if you aren't satisfied with the repairs, you will continue to get them back in to fix it until you are happy.

See what they offer. INSIST that you INSPECT the product they want to install and then BE THERE when product is delivered to the site. Check the product they delivered is the product you agreed to. At this point, you may have to do some hand-holding to prove you won't allow this to happen again.

Thanks cancork for your advice.They seem keen on individual replacement so far.

The problem is that I have to tell them which ones have problems and they will replace only those. Since I am not a marble specialist, I am afraid that I may not be able to identify all of the problem tiles.

Cracks are obvious. Then, I can feel the veins in almost every tile and half have visible fill in. I see white scratches on some tiles. I also see some chips along the edges of some tiles, and also on the tile. The more I look at the tiles, the more problems I am finding. What makes a tile damaged tile? What makes a tile a good one? Our reference are the tiles in the rest of the bathroom - they are all smooth, no fill ins or nicks or veins that can be felt.

You've probably done all you can. Use your blue tape on each tile you think should go. Don't be stingy. Tape away. Take a photo of all your blue tagged tiles, keep an accurate count. Document the number of each you have tagged in each room. If you feel the raised veins are an issue, then tag them. Let them argue that they are "fine".

If the installers come in and remove everything you have tagged, then great. If they argue the raised veins are "fine" then at least you tried. Tag them and see what happens.

Once you have inspected the product (when it arrives and before it is installed), count to ensure they have enough. Remove and tag any of the new tiles that are unacceptable. Take photos of them laid out and document how many you believe are unacceptable. Count the remainder. Put the blue tagged product aside (do not remove from the job site...just put them in another corner, away from those they will use). If they run out of acceptable product and slip in unacceptable, you will know...'cause you can count the unacceptable tiles at the end of the repair.

Due diligence isn't just about reading off of the internet. It has a lot of "hands on" or in this case, "eyes on" applications. Sadly, the professionals on the job site have allowed this to happen which means they have to put up with being "watched" by the homeowner.

I know the new guys had nothing to do with the "other company" and their products...but it still shows that you won't be hoodwinked again.

So met with the manager, the field manager, and the builder rep today. We were surprised to find out the supplier of tiles to the floor company is the same as the one we went to select our slabs and tiles for the rest of the bathroom. The floor company manager says that they bought the most premium marble the tile supplier has but clearly there is a difference in the quality between the ones we selected and the theirs. So I don't know what's going on.

The manager seemed to agree that there are a large number of tiles that have problems but couldn't commit to how we go about from here. Just told us that the branch manager and the tile supplier have been engaged and that's it. What can I expect now?

You can totally expect them to "hem and haw" and tell you that's the beauty of stone. Well it is to a certain extant, but the most obvious flaws need to be addressed. I agree with blue taping tiles that you have issues with. Just go for it, you can alway dial it back. When my Jerusalem Gold Limestone was installed in my kitchen, the installer went through all the stone with me, pointing out what was a "natural" flaw and what was a damaged tile. He obviously chose the best and that is why you order an extra percentage. The one thing he did point out was that it was a natural stone, so if I was expecting razor sharp edges, I should have chosen porcelain tile. I knew what to expect and when then installation was complete I was 100% happy.
Expect a certain amount of variations, but hold firm on all the fillers that you have pointed out in many tiles. Good luck. You are handling this perfectly.

Bunnylig, I have now found more issues than just fill-ins. There are white scratches on at least 3 of the tiles. Then for about 6 of the tiles, the edges have knicks on one side, so it is not all straight. 3 or so have knicks on top of the tile. One tile is not leveled properly so it is jutting out.

This is in addition to about 6 cracks in other tiles. The fill-ins on some tiles are big, and the manager agreed that they should not be put in there. In almost all the tiles, the veins can be felt. I don't know if that is a crack or something else. I have been told it is vein separation and cannot be avoided in an 18 x 18 tile. I don't see any of this in the other marble. This is in a batch of 50 or so tiles.

I am afraid there may be more other problems in other tiles, I am just tired now of checking every tile - it has taken so much time.

I really think at this point you should ask for the floor to be replaced. Every little flaw will drive you crazy every time you walk in the room. Especially the tile not level with the others as you will catch you toe or foot on it every time. You have paid good money for your home and the fact that other stone installs are fine proves you are not being unreasonable. Plan to be there for when they reinstall the floor so you can see what you are getting and reject what they might try to use that is inferior.
Good luck. Hold firm.

The tile that is not level is under the sink cabinet. 2 or 3 cracks are along the edges of the room, one is next to the bathtub, and one is right when you walk in the master bath running across the tile. In the powder room, one is behind the toilet, one is under the cabinet and one is in a visible area.

I have been told that the veins that can be felt are vein separations. What is a vein separation anyway? How does one tell a vein separation from a crack?

The fill in the marble looks horrible. Any marble and stone restoration professional could fill a stone that is not obvious to the average person that it's a fill. It's possible the installers themselves did the fill. It looks like an amateur job. Also a proper fill will be sanded and honed with diamonds so you cannot feel any uneveness in the floor. It should be completely smooth.

The floor company has agreed to remove and replace all the tiles. They seem to be cooperative. They requested and received a sample of the new tile from the tile company and they like it. Since they like the sample, their plan is to send all the tiles to our house and let us inspect them before installing.

Does that sound like a good plan? Or should we ask them to send the real sample and not just the picture of the sample before sending all the tiles here. I am concerned about receiving such a huge amount without seeing the sample first.

We asked them to send pictures of the sample but I can't tell much from it..

Just make sure they're sending 10 to 20% extra so you can sort through it. I wouldn't waste the time having them send you a sample just have them send the real thing.

Nice to hear that they have decided a complete re-do is the only option. That's why you keep pointing out problems. If it is too many to justify single tile replacement then the only option is complete removal/replacement.

Inspect the tiles (random boxes) randomly. Look at a few boxes and a few random tiles from each. If you feel the tiles look good on a random sort, you don't have to view every single one...unless you want to.

So it seems it is okay to have all the tiles and not request to see the sample first. I was worried about not seeing the sample first.

So long as you are sure the colour is "right" that's all the sample is going to tell you. The real tiles will be the proof of what type of quality you are looking at. A sample will most likely be for colour purposes at this point.

I'm going to guess the "sample" you saw of this original tile didn't have any flaws...it probably looked very good, at yet here you are having to have all of them removed. The colour is what the sample tile will show. Not much else.

Thanks, I asked for all the tiles to be sent over.

Someone pointed out that sand grout should not be used in these tiles. Should I talk to them about that too?

Also, is it desirable to have fossils in the tiles?

Sanded grout should not be used since it will scratch the marble. Fossils in the marble are not beneficial since they many times will not polish uniformly with the rest of the stone. If you plan on having a honed finish and not a polished finish then the sanded grout and Fossils will not pose as much of an issue.

What grout should be used for marble? What is the difference between a honed finish and a polished finish? Is one more desirable than the other? I have been told to use 511 Impregnator Sealer (from Home Depot) to seal the tiles.

Polished is shiny. Honed has a matte finish.

Crema Marfil Marble if polished does not need to sealed. Actually let me say that more clearly It should Not be sealed. If it's honed depending on the finish sometimes it could be useful to seal. But in my opinion crema marfil Marble looks much better polished than honed...
now travertine is another story...
unsanded grout should be used or epoxy grout

The tiles are getting delivered on Monday and we will get to inspect it for two days. The floor is approximately 178 sq ft for both powder and master bath combined and they have ordered 20 square feet extra. Does that sound enough extra?

I counted about 60 or so tiles in master bath and about 20 in powder room. This is an approximate number because the tiles are not always full square. Tentatively, we have agreed to start work on Wednesday and it is estimated to take about 3-4 days.

They are delivering your tiles + 13% waste. A 10% - 20% is acceptable. The 13% is certainly between 10% and 20%. Only after inspection will you know if that extra 20sf is "enough".

I wanted to account enough tiles for both powder and master bath before starting work on powder. So keep the tile inspection/approval work separate from tile installation so there are no surprises on the material that will be used and work can be done in one go. Does that make sense?

However, they want us to start work on powder if we like enough tiles from the tiles arriving Monday. My concern is if we do fall short of acceptable tiles, we would have already started work on powder and then we will have to, first, at the very least wait once more to receive the tiles(it comes from Dallas) and second, I don't know if they will have enough of the same type to complete the work when we do reorder.

I understand their point of view of not wanting to order too many extra as it costs and they think this 13% extra may be enough. However, I am thinking to be safe, it may be better to approve the tiles for both master and powder before starting work on either. What do you think? Or should I just go with their plan?

Thanks!

This is the email I got:

We will deliver the tiles on Monday morning. I can also order additional tiles if, after you view what is delivered, you find a large sample is unacceptable. I think if you find enough tiles you like, that we should start on the powder area. That way, it gives me more of an idea how much, if any extra tiles I would need to order.

Remember there is a difference between unacceptable and natural stone variations, so keep an open mind. I would inspect all before starting work. You can put acceptable but not perfect under vanities, toilets. If you order more ( because you are too picky) runs you the risk of different color lots. Good luck!

I need some urgent help here. They sent us 87 tiles. We find only 15- 20 okay. I am meeting with the floor rep tomorrow. Need Advice on what to do with this shipment. Should I get a builder rep involved too? Only floor rep subcontractor is coming tomorrow.

This is the picture of acceptable tiles:

These are the ones that we don't like.

Do the tiles look okay to you?

Here are some more:

Do the tiles look okay to you?

Maybe it is time to change the floor to a large Crema Marfil Hex. This style is smaller than the large rectangular tiles you are working with and may have less variation and fillers.

Having a hex will not match, because everything is a rectangle. The shower wall is rectangular, the slabs on the tub face is rectangular. I will post a picture when possible.

The floor rep told us before shipping these that they will ship the entire thing and if we don't like it, they have other tile installers, so no worries and all that. I was skeptical of accepting a shipment without seeing it but they looked very co-operative to solve the problem to our satisfaction. Then it changed to accept a few to atleast start the powder and now to how little we have considered acceptable. They seem to be changing positions now and we don't know what to do. The builder rep has not been in the loop for some time because we were trying to work directly with the floor rep.

We had asked them to come to warehouse to see before it is shipped. But they say it comes from out of city or state. It did come and sit in their office for some time before it was shipped to us. The tile supplier does have an office in our city, but they say they don't deal with them but someone from out of city or state. What can we do next? Involve the builder back again? I never anticipated problem with the new shipment. I am thinking of escalating now, because it is going on and on, but am not sure who to go to.

I used that hex floor I pictured with a white subway tile and Crema Marfil Border. I all looks beautiful. Mix and match I say.

Met with the floor rep today. We also got the builder rep to come.

The floor rep want us to accept all the tiles from the new shipment now. I am confused, earlier the communication was that they were appreciative of the time we were taking to inspect to make sure we will be happy with the installation. That was said before shipment. They also offered that if the current tile supplier doesn't work, they have other tile suppliers they can get it from, so accept the shipment. I don't know what happened after we received shipment. They have shifted their position totally.

They are now saying given how we liked only 15-20 of 87 tiles or 20 -25 %, therefore they cannot find any supplier who can send about 4 times as many needed. I understand that and I also don't want to receive 4 times as many and go through them to select only 20%. My point is that the whole lot is worse looking than what we have even though there are fewer cracked tiles, and big fills.

Going to warehouse and pre-screening the tiles ourselves is not something they are open to at all. What are our options now?

Get a credit from your builder for bathroom flooring. Go out and purchase your own Crema Marfil and pay to have it installed. It is readily available from any large tile/stone store. Do not have your builder do the floors. Is that an option?

Or better switch to a porcelain 'crema marfil'. The fake stones look great now, and don't have filler or cracks!

I have a Crema Marfil bathroom with large rectangular tiles. There are certainly veins and irregularities and that is to be expected. There are no parts with any filler as to my knowledge this is something done more with travertine. I certainly feel your frustration as I have built and renovated myself. I really do think you need to discuss getting a floor credit from your builder and finishing the bathroom floors yourself. Remember that any natural material will have variations ( as seen in my pics.) Good luck!

Sorry, have been very busy with moving so couldn't write sooner. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

The current floor look, other than cracks and chips and some large fills, is nice in color and matches well with the rest of the marble in the bathroom. The tiles they sent has some bleached out or very green look and doesn't match well in color with the rest of the bathroom but the fills can not be felt by hand and it is smooth like the rest.

The extra 10% they sent were all cracked and couldn't even be considered. They didn't look like they were cracked during shipment because they were already joined in the back before they were shipped. In summary, they took care of the large fills but now the color is not a good match unlike the current installation. Most of the tiles they sent is either bleached out or has a muddy green look. I have put some pictures above and will put some more pictures later. Thanks for all your help.

They say it is "Elegance", the highest brand that their tile supplier has. I don't know what these names mean. They use "Classic","Select", "Elegance" and they all sound fancy. Are there standard and simple classifications based on grade like A, B, C etc in marble?

We could go to a different tile installer and not the builder do the floor. That is an option.

The reason for going through the builder for flooring was to avoid ripping the default flooring which is what they would have put if we hadn't gone through them. They subcontract the work out to another flooring company. I am not sure if we would get a flooring credit. We will also need to pay extra now to replace the existing floor. What are some reputable tile companies that do marble flooring?

You need someone who knows what they are doing to help you. Where are you located ? If you want to email me at david@groutworksnj.com I will try to find you someone.

What state are you in?

Read some of the comments. Good luck to your pursuit of getting the marble to your satisfaction.
What I noticed is that you've gone overboard with perfection. It is natural stone and I certainly would like to have the look and feel of the "fossils" and "dimples" and "hairline cracks". It is what draws your attention in the first place to use marble - the character and warmth of something natural that you aren't able to get from manufactured products.
If you strip all of what I said above, your marble would essentially be tiles

I work in a granite company. I've seen that in this particular stone, this tends to happen a lot. The fill ins. Most of the time it comes like these from the manufacturer. All stone we put in kitchens are checked and seen by the homeowner before we do the job. We also fix chips to the point where you can't feel it. Sometimes we might have to do a top polish for a top notch finish. The other day we did a huge beach house which had crema Marfil steps to house. A lot of steps. Just about every stone had chips on it. To the point where it was the nature of that particular batch he got. I'm assuming. I'm not an expert on floor tile. But in my experience working with natural stones it's almost impossible not to have a fill-in in this type of stone. In my personal opinion I prefer to stay away from these type of stones specially if being installed where there will be a lot of traffic or use.

I had crema Marfil tiles in my previous house we bought before it was built an we chose everything. It was in about 1500 ft, on our main floor, large entry hall, hallway dining room, kitchen and guest bath. Not one tile was filled like your pictures.

I've been doing marble and granite installations for close to 30 years, in those 30 years I have seen a lot of floors like your floor.
You need to hire someone who talks the same language as the Builder and can step in between you and them to fix these issues. You have a lot on your plate to handle, have some one else deal with them.

I disagree strongly with the comment that you've gone overboard. That person is clearly not in the business.

You will notice, all of us who work in the stone business agree with your impression, that there are actionable issues, and that you are absolutely correct in your observations, and course of action. What you have run into is, the folks who agreed with your observations, and said the floor should be replaced, were real professionals, and have integrity. The folks doing the follow up are far more limited.

Apparently, they are not playing honestly with you at this point. They have done nothing as they agreed to, and are trying to use fancy names and pressure to intimidate you into letting them screw you.

I'm sure you have an attorney helping you with the real estate transaction. It would probably be helpful to have him/her drop the builder a note, stating your position, noting their own agreement with you, and suggesting they behave more professionally, moving forward.

Won't cost you much, and should get things moving in the right direction.

Very well said lunarsolarpower! I agree with you 100%!!!

Thanks everyone for your advice. The people who agreed to replace the floor were the same as the ones who did the follow up. In hindsight, it looks like they wanted the current floor quickly replaced somehow to hide the major installation issues(cracks, scratches, chips on about half the tiles). However, the replacement tiles they were pushing us into accepting were not good at all and definitely, the tone of communication changed after the shipment arrived at our home. Before the shipment was sent, we were led to believe that if the shipment doesn't work, then they will work with another vendor and we just took it in on that trust without even seeing any tile.

We are thinking of going to another company to replace the floor as given how bad the first install was in this bathroom, we think that they may not be competent to do the job.

We also got another type of floor done by them, and ran into issues there too. We didn't push for a complete reinstall there, but regret it now as the floor seems a bit uneven in places.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/flooring-issues-need-advice-dsvw-vd~3114590

Remember this is a long term commitment that you are paying a LOT OF MONEY for, so don't just settle...

Where are you located?