LOL! So funny! Glad it's all worked out :-)

I've been following the course of this discussion with interest. My daughter came by to help with a project & we discussed preteen sleepovers in general. She has a stepdaughter in middle school, so is in the thick of this.

prettybluehouse, after hearing from her some things that go on, I don't think you or anyone else is off-base to be careful when it comes to sleepovers. It's such a hard age. When they're younger, parents usually know both the kids and other parents really well. It gets muddier in the preteen stage. You may know parents as acquaintances at PTA & from the sidelines at the kids' games/activities but often you haven't spent time in their homes. Social mores have changed since my kids were at that stage which makes it even harder for parents to allow their kids & guests to have new friends & experiences while still being responsible & keeping them safe.

I'm glad to read that this snag in the plan has been resolved & hope that your daughters & their friends enjoy their end-of-year/birthday party. Try to get some good rest beforehand ;)

Tib, I think something got lost along the way here. These aren't teenagers, they are pre-teens, mostly 11 year olds, just finishing elementary school. They aren't very sophisticated. What we all think happened is that the invited girl either just wanted to bring a plus 1+, or the friend/houseguest heard about the party and wanted to come, or both, and the guest took it upon herself to call us and lay the groundwork. I think she planned to try to convince her mom later, perhaps telling her mom that she already called and it's all fine. I'm sure as they mature, they'll up their shenanigan game considerably. :)

But why would she hide it from her mother but not from you?

I agree that teenage girls can pull some pretty underhanded stuff, but I really don't think this was the case here. She'd call you directly and ask if a friend could come but keep it from her own mother???? Why? And if the friend did come with her to the party, presumably her parents would be driving them to your house and would notice the other girl in their car, and not in their house anymore.

No, I think you were death with honestly here by this girl. I think she has a girl visiting and she wanted to include her in the party, which is a very nice thing and is more in line with what you said, that your own daughter has good judgment when it comes to choosing friends, but that the visiting friend either then decided she didn't want to go because she doesn't know anyone, or sincerely has made other plans.

Tib, they are 11 yr. olds.

What does that have to do with anything? The guest is staying with the friend, at her house. Her mother, presumably, knows this visitor is in her home. If they don't tell the mother she's going to the party, isn't the mother going to wonder where the other 11 year old is while her own daughter is at the party? And again, why would this girl as the host mother if this girl can come if she's hiding it from her own mother?

And why is it so hard to believe that this girl simply was being straight up?

Tib, I think the invited girl was going to try to tell her mother that the houseguest WAS invited- thus the phone call- she was hoping PBH wouldn't actually call her mother and it would just slide by. When PBH called, the girl realized it wasn't going to fly. Does that make sense now?

Tib, this is the way I see things like that work. Kid calls and lets her friend's mom know about it, hoping to get an okay because she suspects her mom would say no, you cannot ask for your friend to come, too. After getting PBH's permission, then she will turn to her mom and say, but mom, they already said it was okay, thereby putting the pressure on mom. It is kind of like when a kid asks to stay the night at grandma's when mom has already said no. If grandma says yes, there is more pressure on mom to give in to the kid. A lot of times moms see right through it and stick to their guns and lot of times moms are so tired, they just say whatever because they are tired of the fight.

No, it doesn't. It would make sense if she never made the call to ask if she could come and then told her mother she'd been invited. But she actually made the phone call to ask. If pretty blue had said yes, then it would have been true that the girl was invited by the host. If pretty blue had said no, and the girls showed up, then pretty blue would have called the girls mother and asked why this girl had come when she had said no to her daughter.

I think it's simply what the girl says it was. She politely called to say she had a friend visiting who would like to come to the party. She clearly as wondering if that would be okay. But then the friend backed out for some reason.

It has to make sense. Some nefarious plot here doesn't make any sense to me.

yes, I also don't really understand the motivation to plot to get an extra girl (esp a stranger!) to a party of a family you don't even know ...

she also might be feeling a little uncomfortable being new to the group and thought maybe she could get whoever is staying with her to come so she wouldn't feel awkward...

i must say, friend issues/drama/conniving/shenanigans, etc seem to be huge with girls compared to boys... what you see is what you get for the most part with boys! lol

I've had this sort of thing happen, it's usually when girl a who was invited to the party has a friend b visiting and b wants more time with a, and has been told that a already has Friday night plans so her visit must end. B asks a to just take her to the party. A is usually a sweet girl, a bit of a pushover/people pleaser, b is usually just lonely. No one is trying to be bad, just a bit selfish and fuzzy on etiquette.

Hope the girls have a great time!

Ya. I have an 11 year old girl. Totally agree with the theory but who knows. My DDs friends are all lovely girls, but I could totally see them trying something like that. My reaction is always to remind myself that they aren't adults. They are still learning how things are done. It's our job to teach them in such a way that makes them want to learn how to be better friends and citizens.

My take. I did similar things eons ago, when I was 11.

I had company. While company was there, I got an invitation to a sleepover, Mom said: you can't go b/c you are already hostess to your OWN company. I'm 11, I want to be with my company and to go to the sleepover. So I take initiative to call party-giving Mom for permission to bring a plus one. Counting on a "yes", I will then tell my Mom that my company has also been invited.

Manipulative yes, evil, no. You see it on TV all the time, kids are bound to learn!

As the sleepover Mom, and knowing my personality, I would have been put out by a "monkey-wrench" being thrown at me in my party-planning rather then the possibility of a dangerous 11 YO entering my home. Sometimes we confuse the reason for our reactions or overreactions, as the case may be.

BTW, I am so freakin glad this stage of my life is behind me. it's what gave me all the gray hair I sport these days, lol

No, tibbr, the person who asked that question way upstream didn't disappear. She went to work and actually worked.

I was a pre-teen and have known and know many.

There's alot more going on in this thread than a sleepover. I am very confident in that.

I would suspect something like amyktexas was thinking -- or that the parents of the guest had something come up where their timing for picking up the guest was in flux.

I'm glad things seem to have all worked out.

no, jmc, I thought your comment had been deleted, not that you had disappeared. maddielee corrected me, which I acknowledge further down. I had no problem with your comment. The issue was that Oakley was attributing your quote to me,and I know why she was doing so. She has, though, disappeared and not bothered to edit her comments so that they are correct.

PrettyBlue,

Kudos to you for taking the advice here in the spirit in which it was given.

I think this forum gets a gold star for civility this month!

To me, there would be two factors. One, would be if the girl asked you if she could bring a friend, or told you she was bringing a friend. It sounds like the latter, which is NOT OKAY. The other factor would be age. If they are 11, and went to the same school, I would be relatively comfortable that they are not going to be juvenile delinquents and are ok. If they were 16, I would definitely want to know the kid and parents. (Of course, after reading about "playing cards" at KSWL's house, maybe I should revise that!).

The whole party giving etiquette always has its annoyances. People bring along extras, people don't show, people RSVP the hour before, people bring alcohol to kids' parties, etc etc etc. Sometimes you just wonder!

And as for scheming, here's my personal favorite. My DD was having a birthday party, and one Mom contacted me a few times about gift ideas. Finally she decided to give my DD a gift card to one of her favorite stores, Lush (organic toiletries). For the bday party, I took all the girls to lunch and the mall.

So the girl whose Mom I spoke to gave my DD her gift. It was two mini Purells (hand sanitizers), in different scents, and a birthday card. That was it. Later that afternoon, when they were all done shopping, I see the girl with a bag ... she had been shopping at Lush ... for herself. My DD thought nothing of the unusually modest hand-sanitizer gift, wrote her a lovely thank you note, and I never said a word. But, duly noted.

Mtn, I remember when you were planning that mall party. Thanks for sharing that story - I'm just shaking my head. I agree about the party etiquette issues. I haven't yet given a party that didn't have some odd issue crop up.

Tib, I am so sorry for disappointing you because I did not disappear. I have a life outside of my computer. Maybe I should suggest the same for you?

Apologies for my mistake. I read it twice but I guess I need to wait to read anything until my new glasses come in a week or so.

I think it's time you stop assuming the worst in people. I won't be back to this convo.

Well, I had to have that little girl manipulation tactic spelled out for me before I understood. I guess since I have a son, my "daughter spidey sense" was never developed!

And too many of those girls never outgrow it.

wow, mtn!! that is one nervy little girl! you better watch her in your house when she's older!!

MtnRdredux, wow, that is nerve. And what a position for you to be in. It would be so difficult to bring it up with her mother. Yet, if one of my kids pulled that I would surely want to know.

prettybluehouse, I think it is perfectly fine to limit your guests to those actually invited. I have told my son no to inviting particular kids in particular situations because I know those kids are challenging and I don't want to be responsible for them. For example, dh sometimes takes ds and a friend or two to a major league ballgame. But only kids we are confident will listen are invited to that kind of event both because we worry about safety and because the adults want to actually get to enjoy the baseball game. Kids who are more difficult are welcome to come to our house to hang out or meet at a local park. I would feel very uncomfortable having a child I have never met stay overnight. Glad things got resolved without too much fuss.

Magdalena, pre-teen boys do this too! Mostly to get parents to agree to playdates, sleepovers or a ride to some special event. Quite amusing to watch when it is 3+ boys trying to coordinate the plan between themselves and decide which parent will be easier to convince first.

Not actually plotting,but maneuvering . When my oldest was in her teens, she and a friend had a way of getting us to say yes. They would wait to the last minute to spring something on us and I would get swept up in the moment and go along with it.

I finally caught on and my DD admitted that is was a way getting what they wanted if I didn't have too much time to think!

Some situations are transparent. Others, less so. A good parent, like the OP, considers the context of her own knowledge of the kids and parents involved as well as prior experiences, and gathers more information before making a decision. Exactly what the OP did and usually those steps end with a good outcome. Good job, PBH!

I have a friend who is a new grandmother to an addition of 5 children to the existing household of two. There were 6 children, but the 6th became a wierd major target for abuse from the parents, and was literally starved to death by them. Not that the other 5 didn't also suffer abuse and neglect that set them apart at school and left them with few friends, and none that really were confided in about what was going on.

My friend's biological grandson found out what was going on, alerted his mom, and she opened her home to all 5 of the kids. Just not in time to save the 6th. The ensuing criminal and civil actions that almost bankrupted them in order to make the kids not live in a legal limbo and still keep them away from the perpetrators took years. They finally prevailed, and my friend is now officially a 5x more gramma.

And now some socially awkward and ''unknown'' kids have dinner every night and sleep their own beds without fear. All because a mom chose to allow those ''suspect'' kids into her home. It's not always teen drama. Sometimes it's a very real adult drama behind the scenes. Get to know your kids friends.

What a horrible story, Sophie. Can't for the life of me figure out why people who clearly don't want children, or are unable to care for them for one reason or another, can't or don't use birth control, not that it's 100% effective, but...

because tib, they often are not in the position (for whatever sad reason) to make rational, responsible decisions....... it is a crime tho, and as much as I hate to say it, I wish birth control was mandatory in certain circumstances... hot topic for sure.

Sophie, that's quite a story. I remember a similar story out of Washington, a large family where all were abused, but one child died from starvation and I think, exposure. Those poor kids. I hope your friend's grandchildren are healing from their trauma.

I'd like to redirect a bit, before this topic strays too far off course. We are an adoptive family. None of my children were born to me, They did not come to me as infants either.

The issue I initially wrote about isn't whether or not to open my home to a child in crisis or in need of a family. I've been there and done that - and would probably do it again if the need arose.

This was about party etiquette and my comfort with allowing a guest to bring someone unknown to anyone in my household to my daughters' sleepover party. Remember, we had/have zero information about the +1 - no age, no name, and no communication at all from the parent of the guest. And no ask from the guest herself, more of rambling warning, and then a quick backpedal the next day when I called. This got us all thinking and talking about the inner workings of the 11 year old mind, which has been interesting and illuminating.

Prettyblue, all I have to say at this point is......just wait until they are 16!

Plotting, scheming, maneuvering. With girls it's a fine art. I always knew when my daughter was up to something. She would assume a sweet solicitous air, darling girl. I was being set up. She and friend(s)--it was always in concert with at least one other--would hatch a plot/scheme and then pitch it at the last minute. Mom!!! I was usually assigned to be one of the drivers because I was one of the parents who could be depended on.

When they start driving (or worse, when one of their new "friends" does) all bets are off. "You don't trust me!!!" Damn straight I don't.

WOW, this took a turn. I have been following but got lost. How did the sleep over turn out, did the guest plus one come with or with out friend in tow?
The LAST group sleep over I allowed was a birthday. First grade. Small private school class with only a few girls. I invited them all, thought my daughter liked them all as she mentioned playing on the play ground..turns out there is not a group/class made up by adults that all the girls would really choose to be with. The OTHER guests were not as accepting as my daughter. If you think by inviting the odd man out you are doing her any favors you are wrong. Girls feel no compulsion to play nice just because they are in close quarters!! Cliques stink. I found the only way to stand their existence was to stay the heck out of the "play date" crap. I refused to provide a place for girls to congregate/plot/be mean to others. That is a huge focus of late night sleep overs in girls...it is time for the sleep over to be abolished!! IMHO I also never again allowed my daughter to go to a group sleep over. My daughter stands on her own two feet, has no enemies and was never known for ANY of the manipulative behavior you all are speaking of. This is a LEARNED behavior. Less time in groups decreases the chance they will learn rudeness. I see these packs in the halls of schools. They are vicious. Sorry, but it sounds to me like many here ENCOURAGE this pack mentality. Back away moms and take your daughters with you.

Wow, Arcy, 1st grade seems young to be exclusionary. I didn't really see that in kids until middle school, and frankly even then I have seen enormous effort on the part of their (small, private) schools to teach kindness. From what I see and hear, middle school where my kids are is much kindler and gentler than when I grew up, when there was not even an attempt to civilize middle schoolers.

I might have missed it, but I don't see anyone encouraging a pack mentality.

I do agree with your about sleepovers. We have never hosted a sleepover with more than 2 guests, most of the time it is one on one. My DH is against them altogether. I get it, it is certainly where trouble can start (esp as they get older, it is DEFINITELY where trouble starts).

OTOH, it is kind of hard to ban them entirely. Kids need friendships as they go through separation from adults, and friendships need time and privacy. That's why I allow my girls to have one friend sleep over at a time, and frankly, luckily, the only friends they have wanted are girls I know and who i believe to be excellent role models.

My older DS (sister) had two boys, and they had a lot of sleepovers. I may be being sexist, but i don't get teen male sleepovers. Its not like guys tend to sit around and talk hours on end, or do each others hair and makeup. My DS's boys were smoking pot as it turns out, at a friend's house where the parents okayed it! OMG

Teen male sleepovers involve eating pizza and playing video games and watching movies - both at the highest volume possible.

And I guess that's why I stopped going to sleepovers as a teenager - I can't think of anything more boring than doing hair and makeup.

edit to add - I just remembered what we used to do - I did have a good group of girlfriends through high school and starting in about grade 10 we would have dinner parties. We would each do one a year. Our moms would help us when it was our turn and we would plan a menu, set the table with whatever our moms would let us use, do the cooking with our moms teaching us or giving us hints, etc. We would get dressed up and do a sit down dinner. That was fun.

Arcy, my daughter was never a "pack" member not was she ever the victim of one. She had a group of friends---as do all well adjusted kids----who were not of the Queen Bee variety and there were concerted inclusion efforts by parents AND kids for events. I hardly think your experience is universal!

too bad arcy that your daughter had such bad experiences at such a young age! nice behavior and getting along with others can also be learned in groups! there are some mean kids and there are some mean adults... that's the way it is. but, most people have the opportunity to learn right from wrong and make choices regarding their behavior... some will choose to be followers and run with a 'bad pack', but lots don't!! parents can help their kids process and deal with all of this, but I don't know that trying to protect and shield kids from negativity and adversity is the best way for them to learn about people...

my kids seemed to do a good job choosing friends and they did like sleepovers. usually sleepovers were only 3 or 4 kids total at most, except for birthday parties where there was usually more. they played, talked, ate, watched movies, swam and had fun... as they got older they played more video games- it never ceased to amaze me how they would watch each other play!?? they liked certain board games too (ie risk) and cards sometimes...

as they got to be young teenagers, the sleepover birthday parties for the most part stopped. but, even in HS, a couple of my kids would have a friend or 2 sleepover sometimes- we knew those kids well.... as they all got older, I knew which kids I could really trust and which ones I wasn't as sure about... I didn't feel comfortable having parties of any type (or my kids going to most parties) when the kids were in HS--- drinking and pot smoking happened when I was in HS- sleepover or not- and things haven't changed!!

I didn't hear of any parents who ok'd pot smoking (I'm sure there were some) but there were certainly some who allowed drinking ('hush, hush'- and 'we will deny it if asked'- and 'how are kids supposed to learn how to drink 'responsibly' if we don't allow them to drink before college')

In middle school there were four of us who did regular sleepovers together. Back in the late 50s/early 60s we amused ourselves with prank phone calls all night. I guess I'm paying the price will all the robo-calls.

In early high school years I remember cutting one another's hair. We all ended up with pixie cuts because we didn't know when to stop.

When she was about 15 my daughter spent the night at a friend's where something always seemed to go wrong. The next day there was no school. On that day I left work early and got a haircut. My daughter called me at the salon to say she was walking to town and would meet me there. I finished early so called her friend's house to let her know. The mother said, "She isn't here. I don't know where they are. They left sometime last night and I haven't seen them since."

I still don't know where she spent the night, but she was otherwise fine despite me venting my displeasure and whatever penalty was imposed. But imagine your visiting child going missing and the custodial parent not even bothering to call.

Linelle, oh my! We have boys and their sleepovers are so fun and crazy. One DS had a friend who just couldn't make it through a whole sleepover (mild anxiety) so he would stay till about 11:30, his dad would bring him home, and he'd come back the next morning for breakfast. That was fine. One year, he was ready to stay over. In the morning, the boys are running around, and for some reason I did a head count. One short! "Where's DF?" No one knew. Frantic search in bathrooms, hiding places. Finally one kid says "oh, he left in the night, called his mom". Quick call to mom confirmed it, he'd called around 2, she took him home, and no one told us! He came back for breakfast as always. Aargh! I was really amazed at the mom, but it was funny, too. We are still friends lol thank goodness.

Update:

The party is tonight and the guests will be here very soon. The mom did call and never mentioned a guest or friend, even though I alluded to it on the VM I left for her. I didn't push it. The guest herself called me twice this afternoon, about two hours before the party is to start. The first time, she wanted a run down of the guest list. The second time she wanted to know what my daughters want for their birthday. I asked to speak to the mom, but she's at work.

I had a good talk with my kids about my expectations for this evening. The upshot being, Mama don't mess around.

Good luck and do keep us posted ! I hope they have a wonderful time !!

Oh, I hope they all have fun and that you have no anxious moments.

I hope the party is an overwhelming success and everyone including Mama has fun.

I hope they have a wonderful time tonight!

I've seen some mean girl stuff at sleepovers, back in the day and now as a mom, but my experiences have mostly been very positive. Staying up and talking all night about our dreams, making endless prank phone calls, watching movies, baking. When my best friend got married we had a sleepover the night before. We were 26. And we made prank phone calls (that was the last time!). Now and then I still have a "sleepover" at a hotel with a couple of my best friends.

Success!

I think everyone had a really good time. I'm really pleased.

For anyone wondering how the mystery of the houseguest ended, here's the conclusion to the story: There was no houseguest. As soon as I spent a bit of time with the invited friend and met her mom, it all became clear. It was just as suspected up-thread. Sigh.

I was thinking about this whole thing as I drove them to the movies. We've been super fortunate that my girls have chosen friends who have all the qualities any parent would want to see in their kids' friends. In addition, most are also forthright, polite, and charming as all get out. That's what I've come to expect, but I'm now realizing that a high bar has been set.

We've met our share of kids who were nice as could be in front of adults and quickly turned mean and rude the minute adults were out of earshot. My girls tend to avoid those kids after a short time in their presence. This was my first encounter with the opposite situation. It threw me, but clearly the latter is vastly preferable to the former.

I feel a few years older and bit wiser from this whole experience and the conversations we had here. Thank you to every single one of you who contributed to this thread. It does take a village, and this time, you all were the village.

Just for fun, here are some other things I learned:

• Despite all the junk food provided, grapes and strawberries were the most popular snack.
• Hand clapping games, Twister, and line dances are still awesome group activities, much enjoyed by all.
• One of my daughters has a voice that could wake the dead (or the mom who was gratefully, finally, asleep).
• Gallons of water were consumed; I think my house might be dry.
• The cat does not approve. Of anything.

Oh I'm so glad it all worked out well. Did your daughters have a good time and what was their take on the party. And the big question - would you do it again? I guess the cat won't but....

Thanks for asking, they had a great time and the party was everything they hoped it would be. I would do it again, but only with kids I know super well. The cat was hilarious in her disapproval, so at least there's that. She's like a cranky hall monitor.

I'm so glad you all had fun. I didn't have advice for your dilemma, but I enjoyed the thread. DD's sleepovers were fairly quiet affairs. DS, however...there was one Summer that at least 3 boys slept over every night. Boys were a lot less drama and a lot more laughs!

PBH, so did you ever figure out what the deal was with the "guest" who never was? Maybe the invited girl was angling to bring a third party, and it fell through? Just a little game she was playing for the hell of it? Not that it matters at this point. Glad this group could offer some insight and support. Dealing with girls keeps you on your toes.

Yeah, sadly, that was exactly it, Linelle.