Cabinets for a whole house should be in the 10% of he build cost range to be somewhat appropriate tothe neighborhood and level of the home. Now if your eyes are bigger than your stomach, you can get bids for quadruple that. The key to coming in at budget is to forget that you've ever seen Houzz, or a GW kitchen. Every single thing that is ''standard'' to any of them will be an upcharge.

Drawers are more expensive than doors. Taller wall cabinets are more expensive than 30'' tall ones. Stacked cabinets are double. So are islands, if not triple. Walnut is more expensive than cherry is more expensive than maple is more expensive than oak. Inset adds 15-20%. Paint adds 10-20%. Glazes add 10-20%. Pretty soon your average middle of the road 20K kitchen is at 60 K and you haven't even thought about the bathrooms. Or worse, your builder is allocating 10K for your average 20K kitchen, and he's including the bathrooms in that too. There's a reason that a ''builder's kitchen'' is a partial overlay oak with short cabinets, no crown, and no drawers. It's what's cheap.

I guess what makes me angry is I went to the cabinet guy before we signed the build contract and he said we'd have enough for what I wanted. Even so, I added 10%, to be sure. I showed my all-drawer layout, told him I wanted painted, five panel, full overlay European boxes, etc.

I feel misled.

Also, my builder charges me 10% for any overages on my allowances. That is 10% of 10k or $1000 real dollars he cost me. It isn't just that I'm having to shell out more, but there is essentially a penalty. If he'd said +10k I would have added it and not have this penalty. I'm going to push hard on paying that at all.

I've "spent" my money on other things so now to go back and have to re-prioritize the kitchen is painful. I have to work with this guy so I can't be too mean but he should have taken more time up front when I went to spec out cost for my build. I gave him the layout, to scale, with notes about finishes.

I'm going to call him out, but I'm going to need to really practice so I'm not an aźhole.

The situation you are in sucks...you have to use the builders cabinet guy and that guy can charge you whatever he wants. I doubt the builder would let you source cabinets from elsewhere. Even if he does let you I would not pay for anything in the build out of pocket as you never know what will happen with closing if the house doesn't appraise etc...

The situation with cabinets is that it is almost impossible to get line item prices of each cabinet unless you go to home depot/Lowes...they are the only ones that will give your the printout of the design and the actual list of cabinets.

If it is feasible for you to do so I would just take what cabinets the builder includes and when you can afford to do so redo the kitchen on your own. Maybe splurge on the appliances now so that you can roll those into the mortgage if that is a consideration.

Why exactly do you "HAVE" to work with this guy?

If you had plans, and finishes, and a close idea on a design, why didn't you get an estimate?

I think the OP is custom building a home...likely the builder will only work with one kitchen designer/installer

You're kind of stuck Mama. I'm sorry.

We're doing a custom build and it's given me an even worst taste for contractors. After a lot of research, I knew more than 80% of the GCs I interviewed.

The good ones (2) were honest with me that they weren't interested in my project unless I let them do the cabinets as that's where most of their profits are.

Since their ballpark was double what the manufacturer quoted, I separated out cabinets.

All you can do now is make sure that your contract details out all the work and details of the cabinets in extreme details.

Why are you being charged 10% on overages? Why should that warrant a penalty? Why cann't you just pay the overage costs...how is the contractor being harmed? What am I missing? A penalty for overages would have made me reluctant to sign a contract with that stipulation.

Is there a reason for not asking to be credited for the cabinet allowance and then simply go to someone else for cabinets that you pay for yourself? Did he give you a $ amount for cabinets in his breakdown of costs? An unwillingness to let you go elsewhere would suggest that he is getting a kick-back from the cabinet maker. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing; it depends on how he figured in his profit margins.

We learned a lot when we built many years ago. Our builder passed on his discounts to us...it made the allowances go a lot farther....our second choice contractor did not pass on builder discounts given by merchants.

I am more than willing to pay for quality and what I want; not being able to determine if I am getting a fair deal or being ripped off incenses me. Good Luck!

I won't be paying the 10% on this without a fight. We spec'd as much as possible before hand but you can't get everything perfect until things are measured. I did my due diligence here...

I was not being critical of you, Mama Rachael. I am questioning, out of curiosity, why a contractor would stipulate a 10% penalty for overages...why would a contractor feel as if he needed compensation? If your builder does it, it must be a common practice...but why? The fact that you went to the cabinet maker before signing may give you leverage to negotiate the price or to go elsewhere. Again, good luck!

If you have the time, inclination, and a detailed plan, you can go to the websites for Barker's or Scherr's and price out what it would cost for RTA cabinets...it may not be an "apples-to-apples" comparison, but it might give you a sense of the cabinet maker's charges. I compared a bathroom vanity from a local shop and Barker"s before I ordered the cabinet locally. The costs were close once shipping was figured in BUT the construction material differed: Barker's had plywood boxes; the local cabinet shop would custom paint but used furniture grade Melamine panels.

It is common for builders to charge a percentage on overages from what the allowances are. My builder will charge 20% of the difference between what the allowance is and the difference. So for example. He gives me a $3,000 allowance for a refrigerator. I decide I must have the $5000 fridge. (We are talking wholesale prices because he will find me the lowest price and the difference wholesale.) that is a $2000 difference and I will have to pay 20% on the $2000 or an additional $400. So my $5000 fridge will cost me $5400. However if I were to buy it retail, it probably would have cost me $6000 so I'm still ahead of the game.

Conversely, if he gives me that $3000 allowance for my fridge and I decide a $2,000 fridge is good enough for me, he will credit me back the $1000, so it can work both ways for us.

cpartist:

What I am curious about is why the penalty? How is the builder being harmed by the homeowner wanting a $5,000 fridge versus the $3,000 one? Why should there be a penalty for overages on anything? And yes, I would expect the $1,000 allowance for a $2,000 refrigerator to be applied to something else.

I guess I would rather a builder make his profit on the construction of my home instead of the materials and finishes I choose. I would also want to pay less than retail on the items ordered through the builder when he/she gets a supplier discount. I get a 30% discount from my plumber if I use one plumbing supply house or 20% if I use another one. This seems reasonable to me; I get a discount off retail; the plumber passes on part of his discount but obviously upcharges me too. Getting an item at builder cost would be awesome, but I do not expect that. Paying retail for builder items that are routinely discounted would make me feel taken advantage off since consumers can often negotiate discounts for building items from retailers and suppliers.

yes it does. You also have to watch all the construction like a hawk and visit the site every day. Take lots of photos.

When I did my custom build years ago, I paid a designer to handle everything for me as a foreman. Now years later as I ripped out things in my kitchen and bath from a flood, I found that corners were cut and the extra stuff I paid for never got installed.

I have to rebuild my shower because the curb was done incorrectly but the damage was hidden under tile and behind the walls for years.

After 3 custom builds, I find that shoddy work is the standard unless you're there personally watching every moment. The final product will be pretty but the quality is not there.

It may depend on your regional area. I live in Southern CA where the construction routinely uses illegal immigrants picked up curbside but they charge out the gazoo. No one ever spoke a word of English on my custom sites and the builders were not small hole in the wall businesses.

I had to clean trash, food and alcohol, daily from my custom site in the last build. Even with that, they still walled up a nest of rats in my ceiling that died in there. It took 6 mos of me complaining about the stench before they found the problem. When they went into the ceiling, we found out that they never put insulation in, especially after I had paid $5k extra for higher grade of insulation. There was also no insulation in the walls.

This shoddy work passed inspection because they rolled out signed and approved inspection reports. I had to pay for holes cut in my walls to prove lack of insulation. This was not a cheap project but a $2MM build.

In the Northeast, my friends get old world craftsmen who do a great job for a fair price. One of the houses I saw was twice the size of mine with super complicated infrastructure and detailed woodwork for less than half of what I paid.

beachem, wow. :( Almost as sad as your story, is that it doesn't surprise me as much as it should.

Mama, so sorry for what you are going through. Hope it works out.

Standard construction practice ALWAYS charges a change order fee for choosing things that go above your allowance if you choose a fixed price build. Items outside the bid increase the needed supervision, labor, and time for the builder. Of course he shuld be compensated for all of that. 10% is a relatively modest fee for a change order.

If you preferred to structure your contract as a cost of the work plus a fee, you were free to do that on the front end. Cost plus is a better contract for those who want a more custom build, and is more transparent as to costs. It's downside is that there is zero guarantee about costs and can lead to large cost over runs when a homeowner wants to upgrade everything.

Well, any build starts to run off the rails when that happens, as obviously, the homeowners didn't specify what they wanted on the front end well enough if there are large changes after beginning the project. That is where hiring an experienced architect can more than pay for his fee. Part of an architect's service is specifying.

Sophie Wheeler:

I understand a change order on changing the placement of a wall. I do not get why a builder should charge 10-20% if a client wants a $3,000 fridge instead of a $5,000 one and went over the calculated allowance. Of course I expect to pay the overage; I just do not understand the practice of tacking on a penalty for going over an allowance for finishes and appliances.

Sophie wheeler normally I think you are dead on but I will disagree on 2 things based on my experience with my build and others I have known locally.

1- no way in hell is any builder allowing 10% of the house cost to the kitchen cabinets! not even in nicer homes, most definitely not in middle class developments

2- no extra fees were incurred when we changed things in our build; just the cost of the change. ie we decided to do a ceiling fan in the living room and master bedroom so we were charged. small amount to cover the extra work/materials. we closed off an opening, no charge. we could have upgraded lighting and cabinets and just paid the cost difference, we got better appliances than were speced and just paid the cost difference. this was 16 years ago so things have changed clearly and not in a good way!

Most of the GC/builders I know charge a fee on top of everything, 10-15% is common. With the ones I know It is NOT a penalty. It is charged on everything including what is in the allowance. If the allowance were higher then that "extra" percent would have been added to the base GC fee.

In general I prefer to work with builders who do it this way as it is far more transparent and stated up front. I won't work with the guys who want me to bury money for them somewhere in my prices. I find that dishonest and makes me look bad.

For builders that I work with often I extend a 5% discount (all I could afford) either to them or to their client. It is meant as a thank you for the builder, encourage repeat business, and helps offset the GC fees which makes for happier clients.

On another note- there are cabinet dealers that will provide itemized pricing- once a retainer has been paid either by the client or the builder.

We do, but not while you are still shopping around. Few request it from us, and very few of them manage to make much sense of it even with some guidance/translation. To turn it into something entirely in plain English (understandable) is an extremely time consuming process that I will not undertake. Box stores are tied into a central data base and do simpler projects with fewer options so it is easier for them. We have to do it all manually.

adoiron, I think yours is the outlier -- most contractors in my experience do charge a "change order fee", which is usually a percentage on top of the cost to make the change. Whether its 10% or 20%, and whether its charged on appliances and cabinets, as opposed to just purely construction changes (like moving a wall) is dependent on the particular contractor and contract. But no, not unusual. (If I had spent 10% of the cost of my condo on cabinets, I'd be broke LOL. Around here, even an entire kitchen won't usually cost 10% of the cost of the home).

The 10 percent is basically the GCs profit margin and expenses not a penalty. Normally every contractor involved has a 10-15 percent markup. When building a house there is also less of an once give to compete on price because you will only have a choice of one or two cabinet guys. I would strongly recommend that you consider taking the builders base kitchen and then doing exactly what you want when you can. You will likely spend less money overall this way.

To be fair, the usual costs given for cabinets (whole house, not just the kitchen) is 6-12%, and most customers find it much too low to get the kitchen of their dreams. Sure, it will product a fully functional kitchen. Just not one with all of those Houzz details that people think are "normal" when they are anything but.

The percentages don't work all that well in the very high and very low cost of living areas. Like sjhockeyfan, spending ten percent of my house's value on cabinets would be kind of silly. A hundred thousand on cabinets for a nine by fourteen kitchen--I think even I would have to work to manage that!

But to me the issue here is that the OPer told the cabinet maker what she wanted before the build and was told it fit in her allowance, but now she's being told it doesn't. And the cabinet maker was selected by the builder. Or am I not understanding? If I'm right, then I think the ten percent penalty/change order cost ought to be waived as a matter of fairness. (Not saying legally the builder is obligated to, just what seems fair.).

As far as not being given pricing information, I agree that is super frustrating. Can you say I need you (cabinet maker and/or builder) to sit down with me and help me find alternatives that fit in my budget. My GC on this remodel did not provide line item pricing on his bid, but h was willing to sit down with us and talk about how to hit our target number.

the 20% is his profit margin. No business could survive without adding on a profit margin. Basically he's getting me wholesale prices, giving me the wholesale price and then adding his profit to that. If he sells me a stove, why shouldn't he make a profit on it?

When I do a drawing for someone, and I frame it, I not only make a profit on my time to complete the drawing but I also add a small profit margin to all the materials, etc. It's called good business.

I understand where the op is coming from. The cabinet subcontractor is absolutely entitled to his profit but the GC from the home already has profit built in. I am fine for paying profit where there is some value added such as design services, delivery, installation etc. but why should a GC profit from appliances/cabinets that are delivered and installed by somone else...what value did the GC add to those appliances/cabinets. The GCs profit from the original cabinets should cover his administrative expenses and profit.

We're building and using Conestoga (RTA). Our cabinet guy doesn't offer inset so he is going to measure, go over my order, assemble, and hang cabinetry for $1000. He said normally he'd do $1500 but I'm designing it and He's never done Conestoga before so he's coming down in price. Our initial cabinetry budget was 8k, to which my husband laughed. The builder said it will get you really nice wood cabinets, crown, some bells and whistles... So my husband added 5k to my budget. I have my quote for everything I want.... Now I'm culling. Just a little bit over budget, but I could easily bring it down. Kitchen is painted maple, stacked, inset, mostly drawers. Butlers pantry is stained walnut, stacked, inset, finished interior, glass doors. Bathrooms will be stained walnut, inset. This is my splurge zone. I'm okay with spending 7k more (total) on my kitchen to get a GW kitchen. I think it's money well spent. Most of my friends would rather spend that 7k on more square footage - totally fine by me! We're okay with not getting our money back because we plan too be here either forever or if someone offers us a lot for our land (we got a steal in a great location).

Side note, we don't have to pay extra % to our builder if we go over, but if we go over we aren't redoing our loan, we will pay out of pocket. Is that an option for you? We went over on appliances as well. Counters I knew what I wanted and what it would cost so we made our budget reflect that.

I think we're confusing a cost overrun and a change order here. If Rachel had specified the $3000 fridge, and that was what the budget was based on, and then she changed her mind and wanted a $5000 fridge, that's a change order. There's extra work involved for the GC to source the different fridge, make sure it fits, float the extra cost of it, etc. So there's a charge on the change.

In this case, he TOLD her it would be a $3000 fridge. Now that's she's going to buy the fridge, it's a $5000 fridge. (I know it's actually cabinets, but the fridge example is easier to explain.) So not only does she now have to cough up the $2k difference, but he gets an extra $200.

If he gets a 10% fee across the board, he'd still be getting that $200, because he'd have budgeted for a $5000 fridge to start with and have made a $500 commission rather than a $300 commission.

But I have NEVER seen a kitchen quote that didn't have a price breakdown. How else are you going to be able to work it into the budget? How do you decide that the pull outs under the island are what's putting you over budget and taking those out would be a quick and easy way to get the price where you need it to be? I would also argue that you "have" to use this cabinet guy. It's a custom home, that means you get WHATEVER cabinets you want. Not what his guy is willing to give you.

He'll probably balk, as he's getting a kickback from this supplier. And that would be fine, but I'd be concerned that he's getting a kickback AND adding an extra 10% on everything you buy.

We didnt have a "penalty" but have to pay for any overage out of pocket at the time they incurred (so there is no such thing as a "float"). As such, we havent gone overboard but the standard package is fairly decent to begin with.

For appliances... it doesn't cost my builder 10% more to install a $4800 freestanding 36" range than it does to install a $2400 freestanding range, especially since the appliance store is doing the delivery and installation so that is built into my price. It's the exact same hookup on his end. He puts in a gas line and electrical. I'm paying the $2400 difference already. Why does he get $240? I'm sorry but that is stupid.

However, it is what it is and it's in my contract. I knowingly signed this after paying my lawyer $500 to review the contract and suggest changes. The builder would not change one word in the contract on his end so my legal review was really to open my eyes to the risk. I still signed. I'm still moving forward. I will pay the 10% because I am legally required to do so. That doesn't make me feel like its right or fair. I can still ask that this 10% be waived.

Why?

BECAUSE I knew about the 10% I delayed signing the build contract several weeks and made appointments with the cabinet guy, flooring guy, stone-yard. I went to check to be sure my allowances were enough. I added 22% to flooring after my "rough" flooring quote came in much higher than my allowance based upon grade of flooring chosen and sqft. The cabinet guy said what I proposed was within my budget. Even so, I added 10%. To find out I'm 50% over that even now is a little surprising.

My budget for whole house cabinetry was 4.5% of my total build cost (excluding property acquisition). Because there aren't prices on anything I had no idea that it wasn't nearly enough. I had no point of reference. I still don't. That is what I'm complaining about.

I am paying cash for appliance overages, through a totally different vendor even. I'm not even running them through the builder or my loan.

I can't do that with cabinets. My builder has to be involved.

Yes, it does cost more. You will need a higher pressure gas line, more ventilation, a larger ventilation pipe, and the utility locations are more precise in their specifications.

He's structured his compensation based on the cost of the house. If you build a $200k house, he makes $20k. If you build a $500k house, he makes $50k. That's his pricing structure that you agreed to. If you tell him it's going to be a $200k house, and then add in a bunch of stuff to make it a $500k house, and he still only gets $20k, that's not really fair to him.

However, he's being sketchy here, too. The fact that you can ONLY use this cabinet supplier tells me he's taking a discount from this supplier and adding that into his profit. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. He's entitled to compensation, and if he takes it from not passing on the discounts instead of charging you a flat 10% on everything, that would be fair. But to be taking these discounts as his profit, and ALSO adding on 10% of the price he's charging you? Not cool. Plus, he's hiding this extra compensation. He's implied that he's making $50k on your $500k house, when he may be actually be making closer to $100k depending on the pricing he's getting from his suppliers. Again, not necessarily bad that he's making that much. But if he's actively hiding that...

I think he needs to take a hit on this kitchen, though. He set the budget, and it's gone so far over? Why does that fall entirely on you? What is he doing to help you NOT be so far over budget? Or is he giggling at the overage as it's all extra profit to him, and has no incentive to help you out as his contract is all there to protect him at your expense?

Sophie, what do you consider a GW kitchen? I only went on GW after my flood and other than the appliance upgrade, my new

Oops.. My new cabinets will be the same as my old ones from the last three houses. All bottom drawers, glass uppers on some, and granite countertop.

The only difference this time will be the Lemans, quartzite instead of granite and 2 drawers that will be customized for oil and utensils.

My old kitchens look pretty identical to the Houzz/GW ones except for functionality layout and color/design (I.e. inset).

I thought mine was a pretty basic kitchen. Wouldn't that be the same for @mama?

A builder basic kitchen doesn't have pot drawers, all doors on the lower cabinets. There's one bank of drawers, and that's it. They have a standard height, with no trim. If the ceiling is higher, the cabinets just float below them. No lighting under the cabinets, and no light rail to hide that. There are no pull outs inside taller cabinets. No garbage/recycling pull-outs.

Granite and quartz have become ubiquitous, but only because it's an obvious detail.

I have also had all these things (well, not granite because I'm not a fan) long before I found out about Houzz and GW. But I have always been "into" the details of kitchens.

Sophie, I get it, you are on the builder's side. I am not angry with my builder. You are missing the point here.

The fact is that *I* did my due diligence here by giving exact specs, including a detailed drawing (if you see my threads you will see what level was given to the kitchen guy - to scale even!) calling out things like "painted", "inset", "shaker", "all drawers", "bump-out" and was told what I wanted was within my allowance. Now I'm finding out that I was spec'd at stained Alder, no glaze, partial overlay, shaker doors, one lower drawer stack.

That is pretty far different. The cabinet guy screwed up and cost me an extra 10%. If he'd taken care to inform me my idea was +50%, I would have added that to my allowance before contract and not paid the stupid penalty. This is why I will bring it up.

What part of this is fair to me?

Well, if that's the case, and if this is the contractor's cabinet guy, I'd definitely object to paying the 10% -- he could have done the same thing with all your allowances (bid low, told you you can do what you asked for within budget while knowing it wasn't possible, and then charging you that extra 10%). This does work both ways.

If you had known before that your kitchen was going to cost 50% more, wouldn't that increase to the budget have still cost an extra 10%, as part of the builder's compensation? Or is this really a "you went overboard on your selections" penalty?

The fact is, you agreed to go with this builder and his subs based on this sub's agreement that he could provide what you wanted for that price. If he's now claiming he can't, the builder either needs to eat the penalty, or allow you to shop around for another sub that isn't going to play around and charge you whatever he wants.

But it sounds like this builder has a sweet contract that allows him to screw you.

Okay, have him build you a basic kitchen. Do not add any frills. You can add that stuff in later. I will show you before and afters of my builder grade kitchen.

I bought my cabinet feet and corbels at pierce and pierce mill work. They have a website. I painted everything with an oil based primer and used behr paint and primer in a bone color. I then glazed my own cabinets and the hood. My island was finished with 1x4 and some molding called judges molding.

The total cost to upgrade the kitchen was 5000. Including material and labor. I kept the granite and the fridge. Although it died after these pictures were taken.

Do a search on Pinterest called upgrade builder kitchen.

Did the cabinet maker do the actual *design* work that created your specifications? Or did he just do a standard builder's takeoff based on the room dimensions in the blueprints and information supplied by the architect in the cabinet elevations? Builders typically use the architects elevations for their take offs, not a specific custome design--unless The builder is willing to schedule design time between the customer and the KD.

I've worked with many builders and have only had a scant handful that offered a real allowance for what their customers actually want. The ones that do, don't do allowances. They just do cabinets as a cost plus where their markup gets tacked onto whatever the customer designs in conjunction with the KD.

@amber Thank you for explaining the "Builder's Kitchen" for me. The only thing that my kitchens did not have was garbage pull out. I guess in specifying the kitchen details for my custom builds, I did not get "builder's kitchen".