The best value is option #1, however I would want to see a load calc for cooling.

Having said that, the modulating furnace and the 2 stage XR17 are more about comfort rather than savings.

And now is the time for your dealer to make recommendation for improving the temp difference for your master bedroom. FROGs (finished rooms over garage) are notorious for poor heating and cooling usually due to inadequate insulation properties and poor ductwork sizing/design.

I prefer Trane's Perfect Fit Media Filter cabinet over HW F100, a better and heavy duty cabinet that actually fits the furnace like a glove. I would consider that.

as to the communicating furnace, I would never purchase the XC95m without a fully communicating system including a communicating AC condenser and Trane's proprietary communicating controller/thermostat. All of this comes with a price but no doubt great HVAC.

IMO

How much insulation does the attic have now? Is this an attempt to solve the master bedroom temperature problem? R60 insulation in the attic is over kill in my opinion. The problem is mostly likely the insulation between the garage ceiling and the master bedroom floor. That needs to be checked.

The attic has ~ 9 inches of blown in insulation. We have recently done some work in the master bedroom and attached master bath which required taking parts of the ceiling down and I did not get all areas back to the 9 inches that the rest of the attic is at. So that is part of the problem, although when we had the full 9 inches when we first moved in, this bedroom was still the hottest/coldest although the temp delta may not have been as high as 5 degrees.

There is a bit of insulation above the garage drywall (which is part of the floor in the master). Two walls of the master are part of the attic space above the garage. These currently have insulation between the drywall(master) and OSB (garage). Insulation contractor is proposing facing with e-shield. I'm not sure what the alternative is (beyond conditioning the garage).

Tigerdunes thanks for the response both here and on the other forum.

I have no experience with e-shield and can't comment how effective it would be.

Not sure what you mean by a "bit of insulation above the garage drywall". The garage can get very hot in the summer and the heat will rise into the bedroom. I would want at least R19 in the garage ceiling. This will mean tearing out the drywall. If it is not a big area, you could pull out the old insulation and install spray foam insulation. This will also act as a sealer to prevent any fumes from rising into the bedroom.

The wall between the attic and the bedroom should have R30 insulation. The attic temperature can easily get to 120 degrees in the summer. You want as much insulation as you can fit. This is another area where spray foam can get a high R value in a small space.

Have the HVAC contractor inspect the air flow to the master bedroom. He may be able to modify the duct work if you open any walls or ceilings.

Mike - I think we may try to have an independent home energy audit performed. Someone who isn't selling insulation or a furnace. It's kind of like asking a Toyota salesman to comment on the performance and reliability of a Ford, they only want to sell you a Toyota.

Chris.

Chris - It is hard to make a living as a independent home energy auditor. I find most of these guys are part of an HVAC company and are trying to sell you additional products and services. If you can find someone who is truly unbiased, then go for it.

So we had a final quote on a system. Heat load is coming up with 27,000 BTU or 2.25 tons. Contractor is recommending a single stage 2.5 ton unit. I for one reason or another have in my head a two stage condensing unit is the better solution with an increased run time with the first stage- but they only come in 2 and 3 ton sizes (70% 1st stage). A 3 ton would be too big and a 2 ton too small. A variable speed 3 ton unit would probably be a compromise, who knows.

Contractor is recommending a supply duct modification to increase airflow to the second floor and including duct sealing in his quote. We are hoping that the increased SEER of the XR15/XR16 combined with the increased airflow will help to fix out problem. I will say out of the 6 quotes we had, the last contractor was the only one to measure the actual CFM in the room we are having issues with.

A larger 2 stage condenser will not solve your upstairs problem and actually could make it worse. I assume you have adequate return(s) for upstairs. Your issue is quite typical for a 2 story home and usually is caused by poor insulation and/or poor ductwork sizing/design. I like the idea that dealer is trying to improve airflow to upstairs. Without zoning controls, most pros believe that properly sized single stage condensers are better advised for the problem you are having. I would stick with option #1 and go with Trane's Perfect Fit media cabinet.

IMO

Last question. Any reason to look at anything other than the trane xl824 with the xv95 and xr15? I recall reading about the honeywell iaq somewhere being recommended but cannot find that reference now. I'm not interested in the nest or lyric

I suggest you discuss this with your dealer. Let them know whether you are interested in WiFi or not. Honeywell VP IAQ was improved on by the release of HW Prestige 2.0. Be aware that Honeywell makes Trane branded thermostat controllers whether proprietary or not. Two features that you definitely want is dehumidify on demand for AC cooling plus controlling 2 stage heat based on demand. I would go with Trane Perfect Fit Media cabinet. What model evap coil was quoted? You are getting a very nice system that should give you years of great service and comfort.

IMO

No coil listed yet on his proposal just listed as "matched".

Lack of coil mdl number from dealer not acceptable. Request specific model number and I will check the AHRI Directory's performance /efficiency numbers. And just so you know, third party evap coils are a definite no. Post back when you find out.

IMO

Thanks - I was on the AHRI site the other day. Is there a Good/Better/Best in 2.5 ton Trane coils that I should be looking for?

The Trane coil for your application that provides the best performance/efficiency numbers.

IMO

We've convinced ourselves to go with a dual fuel unit and are considering the following XR15 or XR16. We are exploring the XR17 dual stage if added cost is minimal. I understand we'd be oversized with the XR17 (3 ton only) at 100% but I assume we'd be running at 67% under all but the hottest of days.

XR15 - 4TWR7036B1

XV95 - UH2B060A9V3

Coil - 4TXCB004CC3

SEER - 15, Area IV HSPS - 9.0

-------------------------------------------------------------

XR16 - 4TWR6030H1 (~$75 more)

XV95 - UH2B060A9V3

Coil - 4TXCB004CC3

SEER - 16, Area IV HSPS - 9.0

----------------------------------------------------------

Dual

XR17 - 4TWR7036B1 (~$TBD more)

XV95 - UH2B060A9V3

Coil - 4TXCC005CC3 (coil TBD)

SEER - 16.25, Area IV HSPS - 9.0

Disappointing...a waste of money...what do you see as the benefit of a dual fuel system?...what are your electric and nat gas rates?...if going up in condenser size on the XR17, has your dealer verified that your ductwork can handle the extra CFMs?...

Just so you know, on your first configuration lists XR15 but the model number is the XR17.

IMO

Latest Bill

Gas

Res Transportation
Fixed Delivery Service Charge $ 33.03

Usage-Based Charge
14 CCF $ 0.03272800 @ 0.46

Gas Delivery Riders 8.77
Applicable Surcharge
14 CCF $ 0.00393120 @ cr 0.06cr

Rate CY05 - CincinnatiBell Energy
Gas Supplier Energy Chg
14 CCF $ 0.51060000 @ $ 7.15

Electric

Distribution-Customer Chg $ 6.00

Delivery Charges

Distribution-Energy Chg
1,519 kWh $ 0.02534200 @ 38.49

Delivery Riders 30.00
Total Delivery Charges $ 68.49

CincinnatiBell Energy
Rate CB32

-CincinnatiBell Energy
Supplier Energy Charge
1,519 kWh $ 0.07040000 @ $ 106.94

In regards to Dual Fuel - I like the idea of having the lower BTU at the coil and running the variable speed fan more often during the winter.

After looking at the numbers we are leaning towards the XR16 over the XR15 for just a few dollars more. I forgot until I reviewed my notes that that XR17 is only available as a 2 or 3 ton.

I will not interpret your rates for you. That's your job. Give me a good average all inclusive charges for both electric and nat gas and I will run a fuel comparison for you to be used as a guide. Generally I like to take several mths electric bill, add the costs and divide by the KWHs used. Same with nat gas except therms.

And so you know, the high stage heating on the 3 ton XR17 HP would step on the low stage of the XV95 furnace.

TD

$.55/therm natural gas and $.095/kw for electric.

Ok - took the last 12 mo average

.62457/ccf

.09609/kwh

In regards to Dual Fuel - I like the idea of having the lower BTU at the coil and running the variable speed fan more often during the winter. .????

Figures don't change much...gas is a better option, DF overkill and not cost effective...

Thanks for running the numbers. I do appreciate it. For all intents it looks like at current rates it's 2 times more expensive to run a HP vs a NG furnace.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

Electric baseboard: $2.53

Heat pump: $0.94

Natural gas: $0.64

not quite 50% more to run HP

It makes no sense to get a heat pump. Even if the costs were close, in the long run you are better off with an AC only condenser.

If believe that extra wear and tear on the heat pump system using it to heat is another higher cost than running the furnace so you have to ADD to the cost/btu for system lifetime costs.