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kaseki

Moved topic: Kaseki MUA

11 years ago

In a 2012 topic, http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2243080/wall-mount-range-hood-or-under-cabinet-range-hood?n=4 juliano_moreira wrote today:

Hello Kaseki ! have you finished your project ? can you share what you ended up doing ?? :)

Because the answer to this question is off topic to the other thread, I have answered in this new topic.

-------

I just 98% finished a deck project, and finished (if that term ever
applies to gardening) some garden and lawn rearrangement projects, and
am engaged in some painting projects, but perhaps you are referring to
my kitchen ventilation MUA project, completion of which has been
deferred due to many other projects since 2012.

In the MUA case, without taking the space to
discriminate between completed, uncompleted, and yet-to-be-done aspects
of the project, the bullets below define the path from outside to
kitchen and control of water and air flow. Please note that every MUA
situation is unique, possibly requiring a unique solution, and that more
than one solution can be suitable for a given situation.

Due to
variability of ventilation flow among two kitchen blowers, and three
bathroom fans, while allowing operation of a fireplace, and avoiding oil
burner exhaust leakage (even with oil burner MUA), I need to keep the
internal house pressure near zero differential with the outside.

From the outside:

  • Empty
    down-blast blower housing used as a air intake (looks like a big
    mushroom) on roof over attic away from ventilation exhaust blower
    housings

  • Ducting to an in-line blower in attic

  • In-line blower

  • Ducting to the air filter

  • Possible
    motorized damper (the pressure drop across the air filter seems high
    enough that household heat cannot flow upwards to the attic from natural
    weak pressure changes

  • Pleated air filter in caddy

  • Hydronic to air heat exchanger (about 2 x 2 ft) (just above diffuser)

  • Ceiling diffuser (about 3 x 3 ft OD in hall leading to kitchen)

Control system for heat exchanger

  • A
    larger version of the typical residential Taco hydronic circuit pump.
    This is mounted with many other Taco hydronic pumps on a manifold
    supplying heat to the house from an oil burner

  • One circuit from the two Taco multiple circuit control boxes in use

  • Taco
    control for this circuit is established by the OR circuit made up of
    two thermistor-driven relay modules (industrial thermostats). One
    senses the temperature at the living area side between the diffuser and
    heat exchanger and one senses the temperature of the heat exchanger
    copper plumbing at the exchanger. The former is for air temperature
    control and the latter is backup to avoid freezing. These have some
    built-in hysteresis

Control system for the in-line blower

  • Differential
    pressure is sensed between kitchen and attic. The attic is well
    ventilated to the outside while protected from wind that would require a
    very complex sensor to avoid erroneous pressure measurements.

  • Air lines from passive sensor housings lead to a pressure-to-current transducer within a control system

  • The
    transducer generates a control loop current proportional to
    differential pressure. This current is used to trigger relays for
    enabling functionality, as well as drive a Fuji computer performing a
    P-I-D control loop function

  • The computer in turn generates a control current to the MUA blower motor driver

  • Components for this loop (except the motor driver) are made up of DIN rail-mounted devices.

kas

Comments (6)

  • 11 years ago

    I wouldn't expect anything but the best conceptualization as well as installation work from you, kas. Thank you for sharing the specific details of your heated MUA construction and implementation. I'm wondering if you might wish to share this for publication on http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com, as so many of their readers as well as Martin Holladay would find this very helpful given the engineering complexity of residential heated MUA and green building of homes.

    My own Broan Universal Make-Up Air Damper installation project was much simpler: a hole cut through side of house exterior brick with 8" round rigid ducts connecting to our main HVAC return. A Braun MUA unit on the return connects via 24V wiring to our Wolf vent hood (900 cfm) such that when it is turned on, the Broan damper is opened to pull air into the return and distributed through the house. Exhaust from the Wolf vent hood is to roof exterior, driven by a compatible Wolf exhaust fan. I haven't had any kinks in two years, minus recent fixing of a small opening in the exterior MUA duct. The MUA duct are in a conditioned crawl space in which I have installed lighting, as well as easy access, so as to keep an eye on the system. I also have a remote hydrometer in the crawl MUA duct area and check every so often on consistency of humidity/dew point (this is how, I believe, I picked up there was a small exterior MUA rigid duct separation and went and closed it). As to the metal screening over the exterior intake duct hole, I check that every couple of months by visual inspection and it is fine without holes and firmly attached. And there is draw. No filter further down the line so not to mess with the airflow dynamics. All in all, while tempered MUA is preferable, I feel I did well working with my permit office, with Broan and my kitchen GC to get a substantial 900 CFM MUA system installed. Btw, thank you, kas, for all the knowledge you have offered us. I have enjoyed reading every morsel and am glad to see this post.

  • 11 years ago

    So when the hood is running, the air flow direction in the HVAC return is (potentially) reversed by the MUA flow and air flows out of the HVAC return registers? (This is a clarification question, not a thinly disguised criticism; the likely distribution of return registers through the house should greatly minimize any cross drafts near the hood. Not knowing what the air flow rate of the furnace is, net direction of flow when the furnace is running is unclear.)

    Before considering any publication, completion and testing are required. In particular, the purported ability of the Fuji computer module to self-optimize its PID parameters (where the complex-plane poles and zeros of its transfer function are located) is yet to be demonstrated, at least in the context of my application.

    kas

  • 11 years ago

    OMG. you are so hard core. I only understood about a tenth of that.

    Don't need the info, but it somehow makes my day to know it is out there and that someone understands it.

  • 11 years ago

    kas: I had my CS prof spouse review your post and he said it was "beyond my abilities to comprehend"! Wow.

    We will be needing MUA in the kitchen, but before that, I need to pick an external blower with continuously variable speed for max 600 cfm (36" induction cooktop). Could you please suggest best options or point me in some direction? Thanks very much!

  • 11 years ago

    Continuously variable external blowers are available from Broan/NuTone, Wolf (probably a spec'd Broan), abbaka, Prestige, Fantech, and others. A global search on "kitchen hood roof blower" or similar phrases will yield many options. What you want to select will depend on what your roof is like, your preference for efficiency vs. low visibility, and how the fan curve versus the pressure losses in your system yields the desired air flow.

    Noise could also be a factor. In this case, large and slow beats small and fast.

    You need to ensure that the control on the hood is compatible with the fan. For those not wanting a research project, this requirement is most easily met by choosing a roof blower that the hood manufacturer has selected for use with the hood. (See the Wolf design guide for an example of designating blowers compatible with hoods.)

    In general, I do not recommend particular products unless I have used them.

    kas

  • 11 years ago

    kas: Thanks very much -- VERY helpful "laundry list" of points to consider. Much appreciated!