What do you think about treatment of the scalped area to be seeded? Is it enough to rough it up with a metal rake, seed and tamp down, or do I need to add something? I don't think I'll need peat moss because I have the sprinklers on a timer.

Also, morpheus, when you say "water through the period" are you suggesting I water the day after putting down the glyphosate while the grass is dying off to get a head start on germinating other weeds? I got a new timer I need to set up so I could have it start watering as if I had already put the seed down.

That's enough (roughing up). Water lightly each day to encourage weeds to sprout, just like you'd be watering the seed.

Which cultivars of KBG seed do you have? Some are more shade tolerant than others. Morpheus may be able to give advice on choice of seed, though if you're seeding next weekend that doesn't leave much time for getting particular kinds of seed. Watering this coming week to encourage weeds will let you test out your watering setup to make sure it's all working properly.

Thanks for asking about the KBG, Becky. If I can get the right thing it could make all the difference in the world. After trying to go through the landscaper who put down the original sod (wild goose chase omitted for brevity) I ended up looking at what Home Depot had since I thought I was going to seed this weekend. They had what appeared to be a good mix of various KBG cultivars (I guess that's the right word) in one bag. So I figured I'd pay through the nose and get that. I'm less worried that the new seed won't match with the existing sod. On the east side of the house, sometimes it is hard to tell where the sod ends and the seeded lawn begins.

What do you think morpheus? Is there a KBG blend out there that will work in more shaded areas? I'm sure if I order by Monday morning I'll get it by the end of the week from almost anywhere.

I did put the glyphosate down earlier so I'm at the point of no return! Some small sections of grass actually looked pretty good, so I had to grin and bear spraying those areas. I kept reminding myself that reseeding will work and it will look 10x better in the end!

What are the cultivars in the Home Depot bag? I wouldn't worry about matching the sod but about what will survive best in a somewhat shady area. Do you know how much seed you need? Sounds like you are renovating instead of overseeding. You will avoid the mowing problem of an existing lawn and have a better establishment. If you haven't done this before, be prepared to get dusty and dirty when you scalp the lawn. Bag the clippings. Clean your air filter afterwards.

No KBG--including NuGlade and Award--does all that well in shady areas (they're more shade tolerant, which means they can handle 4-6 hours of sun per day--which the rest of the world calls partial shade to sunny).

Although it does depend on what's creating the shade. Shade trees are going to block more light than, say, a fence (which at least leaves the grass open to northlight). Plus with the trees you get the watering issues that you don't get with fences.

My KBG does quite well on the north face of the house in the shadows, where it receives maybe 3 hours of direct sun per day, but it's open to the sky all day long.

It is 10:00 am and I just took some photos of the area. In the first photo you can see where the sod ends and the seeded area to be redone begins (about where the chimney starts across to the shadow line at the left side). I killed off the entire shaded area, plus a strip going all the way to the back of the property. The strip starts at the back corner of the house, and ends at the corner of the grass, so the strip is about 8 ft wide on average. The second photo shows the same area from the other side. (OK, I added a red line to the photo). I'm noting that even the north side of the house gets full sun in the morning, and the strip in particular is the last area to get shaded by trees that are on the east side of the property (not shown). The grass on the side of the house (shaded) will get sunlight from mid afternoon and on. Based on everything, including the 'airiness' morpheus mentions, I think it is worth a try at using KBG. I am going by Home Depot today so I'll make a note of what is in the bag and will post back.

Also, here's the seed I was looking at.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Scotts-Turf-Builder-3-lb-Kentucky-Bluegrass-Mix-Seed-18266/203760935

I was going to mention that you seemed to have an infestation of Red Line Disease. :-)

The existing grasses are doing quite well, and aren't any more shade-tolerant than KBG. I think you'll be fine, although in lesser sunlight KBG (and any other grass) will usually be a bit weaker than it could be otherwise. You'll probably have to watch out for weeds a bit more there, and stuff like powdery mildew will be more common in fall when the grass is young.

Like you mentioned in your OP, if it doesn't work, you can always overseed or reseed with something like red fescue next year, which certainly will do very well in that location.

Airiness is a good word for it! And it does seem to have an impact. The areas under dense shade trees can be downright dark during the day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight

If you have blue sky, fifty percent exposure, you still have 10,000 lux on the grass--about nine percent of full sun. Over the course of a summer day, that adds up to 1 hour of sunlight equivalent and then some, so you really only need three or four hours of direct sun to bring it into range with what KBG will tolerate perfectly well.

I'm fortunate that my airy north face has 50% sky exposure at worst (more as you move away from the house), plus light reflection from the off-white house to the north and the light reflection off a six foot tall white fence. It adds up.

HaHa. Maybe I need to spray some more gly for the red line. So I've set up the sprinklers on timers and have them running. I'll adjust as needed during the week. I picked up a bag of Scott's KBG and included the contents below. I'm assuming this is going to be an OK mix and one or more varieties will make themselves at home in the environment. Let me know if there is a problem if you have a chance and if you can recommend something else I'll order it Monday so I'll have it next weekend. Thanks!

This discussion (found by searching Abbey KBG) may be of interest. You are likely paying more for the seed coat than the seed. If you want a coating, Soil Moist works well and is not expensive. You should look for sod quality seed which has no weed seed (though .01% doesn't sound like much, it is too much) and very little "other crop" seed and has a 95% or better germination. You won't find it at a big box store. If I were you I'd do some searching tonight for "shade tolerant KBG" and make a list of some cultivars. Check out NTEP results for your area if you have time. Then tomorrow call a seed vendor. Here is a list of some. The vendors can probably make some good recommendations.

0.01% is OK, but keep in mind you're going to put down about a million seeds per thousand square feet. Which means that there will be 100 weed seeds in there...and 2,500 seeds that are some other crop (that probably won't tolerate mowing very well, but you never know; strawberry is a crop that really doesn't care).

Abbey's an ancient cultivar (my old lawn was Abbey primarily), I'm not familiar with Jump Start or Right. Midnight II is an elite and slower growing than the Abbey, plus much darker.

While this wouldn't be my idea of an optimal mix, for most people it's going to produce a very nice lawn.

Thanks Becky. I didn't know you could even get seed with 0.00% weed seeds. I knew the Scott's was only 50% seed, but the bag said it covers 1000 sf and I need to seed exactly 1000 sf. For under $20 I can't imagine I'll save much with shipping from a seed store. Quality? now that's another story. It would be nice if I had fewer weeds to deal with down the road, though, again this is just a small section of the yard.

In the list of seed companies you provided, am I safe in calling any of them and asking for the best KBG blend for my situation, and going with that? Also, if a shade tolerant KBG seed gets more sunlight than planned, does it suffer?

Normally, I like to over analyze everything (and then usually do what my first instinct was) :), but in this case time is of the essence, as they say.

Oh, and I noticed some "morpheus" guy in those links you sent me.

Yeah, that was one reason it was interesting, that Morpheus used to have one of your cultivars. All KBG likes full sun; some are more tolerant of some shade than others and that sounds like your situation. I haven't dealt with all the companies. I have called the Hogan Company and had a long discussion with Mr. Hogan who was very knowledgeable. There is a shortage of sod quality seeds this year so offerings of particular cultivars may be limited. Some of the companies may not sell in very small quantities but you don't know until you ask. Ask for sod quality KBG that is shade tolerant for 1000 square feet new lawn.

>>Ask for sod quality KBG that is shade tolerant for 1000 square feet new lawn.

That'll blend well with a medium-green lawn.

Correction: .01% weed seed is not bad. But be sure that the noxious weeds are "none." Here is some info on reading seed labels. I wasn't impressed by the 85% germination rate of the Scotts. If you're going to put time and effort into growing grass, it makes sense to use the best seed and to get what is best suited for the location.

Too bad I didn't know anything about seed when I had my landscaping done a couple of years ago. Maybe I'd have gotten one of the darker green seeds like morpheus has rather than getting a standard sod. Is there a downside to an elite type KBG, like is it more finicky about location, etc.?

Elite seed is newer and better in various aspects, like disease resistance, drought tolerance, etc. All KBG will need to be properly cared for (watering, mowing, fertilizing) and like Morpheus has said, if you care for it, whatever you have, it will look good. On another thread Morpheus commented on my mention of Hogan Company:

I don't usually recommend a specific company, but Becky mentioned Hogan in another post: " I have called the Hogan Company and had a long discussion with Mr. Hogan who was very knowledgeable."

That statement is extremely, totally true. :-)

Let me explain further: I had called last year and left a message but it was misplaced. Meanwhile I found seed locally that had VA Tech recommended cultivars and I bought that. Mr. Hogan found my message and called me back two weeks after I called. Even though I wasn't going to be a customer, he talked to me at least 15 minutes or so about my seeding plans. He really knows seeds and seeding and I have no doubt he can answer any and all questions you may have about seed. But be prepared to have a long conversation.

>>Elite seed is newer and better in various aspects, like disease resistance, drought tolerance, etc. All KBG will need to be properly cared for (watering, mowing, fertilizing) and like Morpheus has said, if you care for it, whatever you have, it will look good.

+100. I've seen gorgeous Abbey and Kenblue lawns, and those are two of the oldest cultivars out there. I had a gorgeous Abbey and Kenblue lawn, for that matter, with a few oddball cultivars thrown in from various reseedings.

Even with optimal treatment, the genetic color is much paler than my lawn, but that's a matter of personal preference. I just happen to prefer a dark green grass over something paler.

For very small lawns, paler green grass can be an advantage. It makes the space look bigger.

Well I just spoke to Mr. Hogan - a nice guy and a real character. He kind of blew my mind on a couple of things that I think morpheus will be interested in. First he said he doesn't get into 1000 sf quantities this time of year but recommended that I get a hard fescue instead of KBG in the shade. The hard fescue was a slower grower and a good match with the KBG sod. Then he said, "Well I talked to you long enough I might as well sell you something... what's your name and address"...lol. So I bought a 5 lb bag of hard fine fescue. I'll find out what it costs when I look at my bill! I told him I had a large hickory tree shading the lawn, and he immediately asked what I did with those leaves. When I said I mulched them in, he almost shouted that I never do that again! Hickory leaves are too fibrous and choke out the grass. He said "No" leaves should be mulched into a lawn. "Grass doesn't grow in the forest." Also, he said milorganite was great, but be careful of the heavy metals.

So anyway now I'm sitting on a bag of KBG mix from Home Depot and will be getting a "fine hard fescue" at the end of the week. If fine fescue is what I think it is, how does the fine blade blend wth the relatively thick bluegrass blade? I don't care for the thin, wispy look of fescue. Confused again...:)

I have a tendency to disagree with him on several points, but, well, he's possibly not up to date on modern organics.

Hickory leaves do not clog the lawn (you can, of course, apply excessive amounts and clog it that way, but under normal circumstances, no). All leaves are fibrous, that's the cellulose, and it breaks down slowly into delightful leaf humus. Which the worms love, work into the soil, and improve the structure that way.

Milorganite's heavy metal reputation is a foul calumny.

http://www.milorganite.com/-/media/Milorganite/Documents/collateral/Milorganite%20Safety%202013.pdf

You'll note that the numbers are far and away below the exceptional quality limitation. Lead and mercury should concern you the most, with arsenic a reasonably close second and the rest running fairly far behind. Maybe I'd give a nod to cadmium and chromium.

If you're under the impression that synthetics, being factory created, won't contain heavy metals...yep, they do. And frequently in amounts that match or exceed Milorganite's.

"Natural organics" like soybean meal also contain every single one of these elements, but don't undergo testing to determine how much. One, they're fed with fertilizers containing them. Two, every soil on the planet contains some, and plants pick them up.

Fun fact: Sunflowers and some other crops are used for bioremediation of land where heavy metals have built up excessively. Sunflowers, in fact, were used at Chernobyl to phytoremediate the land. Over several crops (which must be destroyed and the resulting ash properly disposed of), the metal levels drop precipitously. Since sunflowers and other plants used this way throw deep roots, the remediation is to more than sufficient depth for the resulting land to be used for farming.

Call back and cancel the order. If he doesn't want to sell a small quantity of KBG you can get it elsewhere. Or just use what you have. It does take time to prepare orders and ship and it's already Monday afternoon. If you don't like the fine fescue look you won't be happy. Just tell him you changed your mind and want to go with KBG as it's not all that shady and you want KBG. I am trying to get rid of fine fescue because it goes dormant so quickly in hot weather. I can't kill it when it's dormant.

Milorganite's heavy metal reputation is a foul calumny.

"Foul calumny?" Morpheus, do you have a bowler hat, a handlebar mustache and ride around on one of those big wheel bicycles? Of course I knew you'd have good supporting information, not to mention that I put 150 bags of leaves on my lawn last year with no problems.

I called Hogan's wife back to cancel and I almost hung up before he came to the phone. He's going to send me some sod quality bluegrass seed instead of the fescue. He asked me to buy him a coke next year if it doesn't do well. The issue really comes down to how shady is the area. He's happy to send the blue and see what happens.

Thanks again for the handholding. :)

>> Morpheus, do you have a bowler hat, a handlebar mustache and ride around on one of those big wheel bicycles?

How did you know? :-)

So I sprayed glyphosate last Sat late afternoon and it is coming up on four full days this evening, Wed. The grass looks a little distressed, but certainly not looking like it is about to crater. I was careful to spray at the recommended concentration. I didn't begin watering for about 24 hours. Should I just go ahead and scalp what is there and then do my second gly application on Sat no matter what? I'm hoping it just takes a little more time for the gly to kick in.

With the lower temperatures, it may be a little delayed. I'm currently reading 77.7° (amusingly enough) in the gardens. Two weeks ago that would have been closer to 90°. Summer's definitely starting to fade out.

If it looks stressed and unhappy, and there are no remaining green happy patches, do the scalping when convenient and re-spray Saturday as planned. After four days, the Round Up has fully translocated through the plant and it's just taking a while.

OK, we'll give it a go. Seed should arrive from Hogan tomorrow. He's a heck of a nice guy, but he told me at least 3 things that completely contradict everything you and becky recommend about lawn care. I guess he knows how to make good seed, so that's all I really need.

Not everybody is going to agree.

The question I always ask is...did you follow what Becky and I have said for the past year? (I know you have).

Has your lawn improved?

Have you seen photos of people's lawns who also follow that regimen? Were you impressed, disappointed, or appalled?

(Excuse me, I'm covered in corn meal and just got in from the gardens, where I'm engaging in a pitched battle with alternaria blight. My clothes and I both need to be washed).

I like pictures. Scalped this evening.

I had some unexpected issues taking me away from lawn duty, but I did manage to scalp 5 full days after gly application. I ran the mower in a couple of directions. Some spots might need a scrubbing with a metal rake, but for the most part I think it went pretty well. I'm just going to use a metal rake to rough up the soil before seeding instead of using something like a slit seeder. I imagine I'll have to blow away some chaff after raking. I got caught off-guard because one minute its 94 degrees, and then within about three days its like in the 60's overnight. I have some time off next week so I can actually seed Monday or Tuesday if need be. At this point with KBG (arrived today!) if I have a couple of days leeway is it more important to germinate remaining weeds for an extra couple of days, or should I just get the seed down to give it enough time to grow?

Dealer's choice. We're still well within the seeding window for KBG, but about seven days is also enough for weed sprouting.

If that KBG is down by Memorial Day, I'm really very content with that. Earlier is better, but content is just fine!

Nice seed bed, BTW. It looks pretty much done as-is, with minimal to no weed sprout that's visible in a wide shot. Is there a touch of green grass still left on the line between you and the bush?

Oh, I'm pretty sure I'll have the seed down before Memorial Day. :)

I'll have to look at the green-ness in better light. The grass was still dying out when I cut it, and it was much greener than at the crown level you see. Some patches are thicker with short grass then I had imagined was recommended, but maybe it is OK if it is dead. I stopped mowing because what came out of the bag started to look more like fluffy topsoil than grass. Good to hear I have a little more time to seed safely than I was planning for.

Yes, but the earlier you go, the better. The seeding window is wide open right now (if I were seeding, I probably would have busted butt to get it down last weekend as perfect seeding weather started on Monday). With a consideration for the remains of Erika, which may give us a minor swipe during the middling-end of next week depending on how she tracks (it's all over the place right now).

Every extra day is another day for the grass to grow root and store energy for winter, which isn't an enormous stress around here most years, but has been the last two. It's also another day to develop fall roots that will help carry it through next summer, which will be a major stress no matter how the weather works out.

Not to be overboard, but I want to get this right. If I am looking straight down at the scalped lawn, and I see more grass than soil, is it not scalped enough?

You are seeing soil, though? It's probably fine. From the distance shot, it looks fine. But we'd need a straight-down shot of the seed bed to be absolutely sure.

If you mowed as low as your mower would go and then bagged, you should be fine. The leftover short dead weeds and grass will help keep the seed in place. If you're worried about seed reaching the ground, run the back of a rake across the yard after sowing and that will help shake any loose seed down (don't water the day you sow so the foliage is dry). Watering after sowing will help wash down any hung-up seed. You can also rent a water filled roller (probably around $15 and it fits in a trunk) to roll the seed to help with seed-soil contact. You've been watering daily to encourage weed seeds to sprout, haven't you? The ground should be soft from all that watering (good for a seedbed). Spot spray anything green with Roundup before you seed.

morpheus - I think you missed my joke... see above. :)

Sorry, I'm not seeing it?

You suggested I be sure and get the seed down by MEMORIAL DAY and I joked that I could probably beat that deadline, which I think implied that I wasn't in the appropriate state of hurry to get the seed down.

Ah, gotcha! Yeah, I do that and have to be careful on soil tests as I frequently reverse the two!

You aren't the only one either!

I'm sure, but I do find myself mangling words more and more lately. It's certainly not age. Sigh. I've probably overloaded core memory and can expect a blue screen at any moment.

There's got to be a joke about pushing up daisies in there somewhere.

With my luck, I'd sprout P. annua instead.

The running threat is that my gravesite will be planted in K31.

Just an observation... I dropped KBG seed from Hogan 4 days ago, and I'm already starting to see new seed germination -- little green slivers about a 1/2 inch high. It was my understanding that KBG germination takes 2 - 4 weeks. Are there some overachievers in there (i.e. bell curve)? Hogan gives a pretty exact breakdown of the seed, and this is several varieties of KGB only.

Some are overachievers and worse, morning people. I had germination on day 5 in absolutely terrible weather conditions. Some of your seed will be slackers and sit around playing their X-Box, finally getting around to sprouting sometime close to day 30.

Cultivars vary in their sprout date as well. If memory servers, and it might not, the Compact-America grasses sprout a little faster while Compact-Midnight group grasses are notoriously slow.

It's a great indication that you're providing good sprouting conditions, though, so you know you're doing everything right.

lol. I agree about morning people, my wife being a perfect example. If we're not out doing something by 10 am, the day is shot.

Well it's November and I'd say I had mixed results with the reseeding. It never grew enough for a mowing but it does seem to be thickening up some. I've got tons of acorns dropping so I've been raking those gently. Also, I'm finding quite a bit of weeds encroaching. I hope most of that will get knocked out in the spring with a premergb (let's also hope the grass grows this spring!). Also, this reseeding experiment cost me a fortune in water. Someone remind me not to reseed in the middle of a drought!

One more question, which I might as well throw in here. Below is a photo of the back yard with 2 year old grass. I noticed these light green splotches this year and last year around this time of year. I'm assuming this is new growth in sparse areas, but wondered if this is a common sight. Is it one of the poa's or just new growth that will darken up next year?

Bump for any guess as to my light green splotches (OK, I'm waiting for my dinner to finish cooking).

A closeup would be helpful as I can't tell.

It could just be running out of iron--which happens when the soil gets cold and damp, as it does in fall. Iron doesn't process back into available forms because the bacteria that do it aren't all that active, but iron has no problems flipping from an active into an inactive form.