This guy is embarrassed and is trying to save his reputation and cut his losses. I'd be glad and give him a chance.

Well...I'll just put this out there for you to chew on for a bit:

He started with a clean slate; a nice flat floor covered with nice clean Durock. And on top of that nice flat surface he gave you a not-so-great tile installation: lippage, uneven grout lines, etc.

What the heck makes you think he can do better the second time around by starting with a rutted, bumpy, uneven surface?

Durock is only a few dollar a sheet.

Before he proceeds, find out how the Durock is attached to the subfloor. It is simply nailed/screwed? Or did he also bed it in thinset?

It needs to be bedded in thinset. Start with a clean subfloor. Spread the thinset with a 1/4" square notched trowel. Drop the Durock into place. Screw down as needed.

The thinset is only there to prevent your tile and grout from cracking down the road by eliminating voids between the subfloor and Durock. The screws are what fasten the Durock to the subfloor.

New Durock and the thinset (can be the inexpensive thinset) to bed it in will run about 75 cents a square foot. $75 in materials for a 100sqft bathroom.

USG has specific screw count and installation instructions on their website you can read instructions " as needed"

durock/thinset will " not " stop your tile/grout from cracking "down the road"

your floor deflection will determine if durock has any place at all in your floor assembly.

MongoCT, that is exactly what I thought. I know very little about how to install tile, but my instinct was that this is not good. I think both sides have been pretty reasonable about this. On his part, the guy is not dodging us and has owned up to a bad job. On our part, we have agreed to pay for the replacement tile and grout. (We are hoping to negotiate a discount on these from the tile shop who recommended this installer.) Maybe some people will say that the installer should pay for the materials, but we just can't bring ourselves to take that position. The tiled area is very small (about 30 square feet) - it holds the tub and toilet for a Jack and Jill bath (both vanity areas have hardwood floors). If we are paying a second time for tile, I certainly don't want the installation to be compromised over $30 worth of Durock.

I can see that the Durock is nailed/screwed to the subfloor but I don't know if it is bedded in thinset. I am guessing if it is, it will be harder to take it up. Regardless, unless I hear a chorus of voices to the contrary, I think we are going to insist that he take it up and start with a clean subfloor.

mcladd66:

What you need is a clean and flat substrate. If he can remove the existing thinset and/or get to that point with a grinder, I'd let him as long as the existing Durock was installed per manufacturers specifications.

"...durock/thinset will " not " stop your tile/grout from cracking "down the road""

Telluwhat, The floor needs to be structurally sound for tile. That's obvious. Durock will not add structural strength to the floor. But Durock not bedded in thinset versus Durock bedded in thinset? If Durock is to be used, bedding it in thinset is important.

The reason for the thinset is not to add structural strength. It's not to bond the Durock to the subfloor. The fasteners are what bond the Durock to the subfloor. The purpose of the thinset is to prevent vertical movement between the subfloor and the durock. The thinset fills any voids between the two materials. So I'll have to disagee with you and write that if Durock is being used in a floor installation, then bedding the Durock in thinset can indeed make a difference in the longevity of the installation. It's a step specified in the manufacturers installation instructions.

"...your floor deflection will determine if durock has any place at all in your floor assembly"

Not really. Again, Durock has nothing to do with strengthening a floor or decreasing the deflection within the floor. Durock is simply a transition material between the wood subfloor and the tile. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Mr. what - It's clear to just about anyone who's been around these parts for any length of time that mongo know how to build and properly tile a bathroom with just about any material you choose to bring up.

Your agenda and skill set on the other hand is still open in my view. Deflection in a floor assembly is certainly master level tradecraft, but the mere fact that you'd raise the possibility that thinset under CBU flooring not adding to the equation is callous at best and bush league at worst.

I'll assume you missed the "by" qualifier in mongo's explanation . We all are assuming mc's floor supports tile , but why not help out the collective by talking about deflection and it's importance in an assembly instead of erroneously interpreting someone's answer who's probably forgotten more about tiling than you know?

If you ask a bathtub or shower question , we assume you have hot and cold water and enough to run the fixture, some things just need to be taken on faith, but it never hurts to double check. You should steer folks in the right direction though if you're going to stir the pot.

I think i did steer the poster in the right direction, bringing light to some mis information they had been receiving here on this thread.
Ill tell you what, As i just now read thru many of your back postings i see you to be a smarty pants most of the time, wrong half the time, and a real double sided type, but then you are really just some random person playing pro on the interweb.

well , you didn't.

mongo didn't say durock imbedded in thinset is the only thing that will keep tile/grout from cracking. It's only part of an entire assembly. You can have the stiffest floor around, and without the the correct underlayment - properly installed, your tile floor will likely fail.

You've only caused mcladd anexiety mentioning deflection. How do you know whether his floor was designed for tile or not ? Will it support ceramic, or stone flooring ? Maybe both.

I'm not masquerading as anything - this is not a help site where neophytes or DIYers come to solicit help from "pros" . It a community where all points of view make for an informative dialogue. And pretty much everyone round here is some random person - including other smarty pants like you !

I'd also love to know how you complied your statistic that I'm wrong 50% of the time. I'm not perfect, and am not above eating crow, but defy you to show where I'm incorrect even 10% of the time.

your floor deflection will determine if durock has any place at all in your floor assembly.

While technically correct, it's not all that accurate. If your floor will support tile , then the deflection has no bearing on the type of tile underlayment one chooses, whether it be CBU, sheet membrane, liquid applied , cork, or a myriad of others. Heck it could even be a mud bed (and not for structural reason) if that's what the designer chooses and setter is comfortable with.

toldyaso ;-)

xedos : "While technically correct, it's not all that accurate. If your floor will support tile , then the deflection has no bearing on the type of tile underlayment one chooses, whether it be CBU, sheet membrane, liquid applied , cork, or a myriad of others. Heck it could even be a mud bed (and not for structural reason) if that's what the designer chooses and setter is comfortable with."

2 errors here and a great example of mis information.

A. the first step and before even deciding to tile a floor is measuring the structures deflection, only then with that math can you decide on A buildup.

B. ill tell u what else You should not be taking youre tile floor assembly advise from a designer. Id lean on an architect or structural engineer and or mfg reps/tech. if youre tile pro, GC, framer, cant compute/ verify defletion specs which is common with trusses in particular. Once you know the deflection a real tile pro will be able to proceed accordingly and in the end be the one liable for the floor not A designer.

You're wrong again. Sorry.

you chose to leave out " If your floor will support tile "

and , if it will, the L/ # has no bearing on which underlayment one chooses.

Some people don't want a buildup genius, that's why they will look at a liquid applied underlayment. Some do, and they'll look at CBU or even a mud bed to bring up a large difference. Some don't care about buildup at all and just put down whatever and step up into their baths and kitchens.

So again, deflection is important in that if your floor is too springy it won't support tile, but the measured stiffness doesn't impact the choice tile underlayment. Other design criteria may, but not deflection.

Designer is a broad term and genre are plenty of designers I know that can spec circles around architects , and some tile mechanics that are better than either. We occasionally work with a national architect and when the plans and specs are drawn up , chances are better than not that a staff "designer" pulled together the package, not a registered architect. They do the rainmaking, come up, with the program / concept, and provide oversite. But look at span tables, or choose CBU over mud or ditra - fat chance.

As for manuf. reps. That's laughable. While a wealth of info usually, they are only going to recommend something they sell - which may or may not be suitable for your application. Some of them are pure sales people with little knowledge of building systems - their talent is moving product.

Is that who you want designing your bathroom ? Well, you prob. would just so you can say I was wrong .

Looks like you've been toldagain.

OK you are just spinning words now. ! you clearly dont work in the trades.

I'm not sure I understand what deflection is, but let me add some facts that may help. The tiled area at issue is very small - no more than 36 square feet. It holds the tub and toilet for a Jack and Jill bath, and both girls' vanities on either side have hardwood floors. I'm not sure if that makes a difference, but if deflection has to do with "bounce", is it less likely to be an issue with a small room? Hopefully I'm not stirring another debate.

Maybe it's based on ignorance, but I'm MUCH more concerned with lippage than with deflection. The tile is rectified porcelain and it has a squared edge, not a pillowed edge. This is a child's bathroom. When those soft, wet feet come out of the tub, the last thing I want them to come into contact with is the sharp edge of the tile. Beyond the aesthetic problems with the original installation (which were significant), that is the main reason that prompted us to rip it up.

A secondary consideration is the transition between tile and hardwood floors where two pocket doors connect the bathroom to the vanities. The tile was already a little too high to use a metal transition strip. In the original installation he bullnosed the edge of the tile and just had the tile butt up next to the wood, with a strip of grout in between. This was the installer's preferred way to handle it. I didn't love that transition, but I didn't love the look of the thresholds I considered, either. If additional thinset raises the tile more, I think we will have to do more than bullnose the edge of the tile to get an acceptable transition.

I texted the guy some questions about how he planned to proceed. He says the Durock is fine to stay in place. It is bedded in thinset, which he says would make it more difficult to remove. When I asked about the ridges in the remaining thinset, he says he plans to "rock them off." I told him I wanted to look at it after this is done before installation proceeds. We haven't heard from him since, but that could be because the replacement tile is on order.

Now your against spinning huh, when you get called out ?

And you work in the trades?

Great, does that make you qualified to comment on deflection?

Super, does that make you more or less qualified to speak on the subject than say an Architect?

Certified Bath Designer?

Attorney who specializes in construction defects?

What about an engineer ? - and not the kind that drives a train and tiles his bathroom on the weekends

mcladd deflection is how much a floor system bends ,if you will , under load.

Here's a primer

So, your bounce analogy is pretty close. Tile doesn't like bouncy floors.

Your transition issue is a separate problem all together and is born out your flooring system's original design and finish material choices. Step ups into baths are common because most builders and customers don't want to pay for the extra labor and material needed to keep a single flooring plane throughout an entire home. Sometimes there is a willingness to pay, but builders or home designers can't figure out how to draw the necessary plans or communicate spec to make it happen. It's tough , because it's not the norm, which is unfortunate.

Do you know what your sub floor under the durock is ? Plywood? 1x lumber? Something else? How thick is the durock , 1/4" or 1/2" ?

Tell u what X, you are tiring... but now this homeowner is ready to look close at what someone is doing to his home and wallet...armed with some smart building advise.

The subfloor is plywood. The Durock is 1/4". Despite all of this, I am still unsure whether the Durock has to come up to get a good second installation. If it had not been installed in thinset, I would probably have stuck to my guns and made him take it up. Now I am planning on letting him remove the thinset and then seeing how that looks. At that point, if I have a bad feeling about the whole thing, I am going to look for a new tile guy to do the second installation. I want to give this guy a chance to fix the work, and think he probably can do it. But honestly when you figure in my time away from work, it would probably cost me less to pay a tile installer I can trust to do the reinstallation. That leads back to square one: what is the best way to find a good tile installer?? Based on this experience, asking the most reputable tile retailer in my town is not the way to go. This is the FOURTH time I have tiled this small bathroom since 2010. The original installation of 1" hex tile was so bad it had to be redone. Third install was for termite repairs. This will be the fourth. I would happily pay an above-market price to get a good tile installer (and I suspect I did pay an above market price for this most recent poor installation). I have two other bathrooms in my house that need to be redone, and I have no idea how I'm going to find an acceptable installer for those projects. I really am not that particular -- all I'm asking for is tile that won't cut feet and reasonable straight and even grout lines.

Think you mean advice not advise , don't you teller ?

Durock coming up is a crap shoot. If it starts to pull up the sub floor when it's pulled then you have a bigger problem. As long as the tile's thinset can be ground down, and leave the durock in decent shape , that's how I'd start.

As far as finding talent, you need to ask around , and not just one place and one setter. Interview a few and go see their work.

Where are you located ?

Mccladd, if the Durock has been thinsetted to the subfloor, and if he can get the existing Durock to the point where there are no protrusions; no ridges, lumps, or bumps of cured thisnet from the previous installation? Then he can give the Durock a couple of good cleanings to get rid of any latent thinset "dust" and then he can tile over the existing Durock.

Good luck this tome around. Hope it turns out well.

Two local installers have now told me (one over the phone, one who looked at the job) that they recommend replacing the Durock. I am sure MongoCT is right that it is possible to get the Durock clean enough to reuse. The problem I have is that the kind of person who couldn't get a good install to a clean subfloor is not the kind of person who is likely to spend the time necessary to get the Durock clean enough to reuse. The new installers do not want to use the existing Durock. The termite repair contractor (who I really like and trust) is still here, and his guys are going to take up the Durock, which will probably save me some money over having a tile installer do that part of the work. I am sure it would be best to interview and go look at people's work, but I already have a ridiculous amount of time invested in this small bathroom project. I found the two new installers on Angie's List, and I'm asking for references from both.

Mcladd: have you considered learning to DIY? That's a sure way to end your frustrations with contractors. :-)

There really is no short cut for verifying work especially in a first time relationship.

The "but" part is what get folks in Dutch in the first place. If you'd seen the current fellows work and it looked like what you now have - would you have hired him ?

Afterall , he came with great references from a source that supposedly had a good rep too.

Whats to say A's list is any better at screening than a tile store ?

What are the reviewers in your locale basing their reviews on ? Meaning , how good is their eye to detail and construction knowledge ?

Don't get sidetracked because you've invested a lot of time and $ already and want it done. You've backed the wrong horse and are NEVER getting that back. Don't double down on a longshot.

xedos, you are probably right. I have a third recommendation now from a friend who is an architect (to say he is attentive to detail is an understatement). Will let you all know how it goes.

"The problem I have is that the kind of person who couldn't get a good
install to a clean subfloor is not the kind of person who is likely to
spend the time necessary to get the Durock clean enough to reuse."

That was the point of my first post. An installer who buggers up an installation with pristine materials in a new installation will probably suffer more pain when trying to rebuild over once-used surfaces.

"The
new installers do not want to use the existing Durock."

That is a very good sign. They want ownership and control of their work from start-to-finish.

Have a good talk with them. They already know what happened with the first installation. But tell them your expectations. Tell them how the last installer failed to meet your expectations.

Things to think about, and to possibly discuss with the installers:

The tile pattern. Where center lines or grout lines will fall on the floor. Example, will a full tile be centered on the centerline of the floor, or a grout line? Discuss grout line width and what you expect for consistency throughout the floor. Discuss lippage between adjacent tiles.

That Crossville tile has a pretty subtle pattern, but if you care how the veining in the tile flows, discuss it. Some people like the veining to flow in the same direction. Some prefer random. Again, you have a small floor and a subtle pattern...but it's worth thinking about.

Some tile styles have a set number of patterns within that style, ie, there might be 14 different patterns in that style of tile. If they find repetition, let them know to not put two similar tiles next to one another in the same orientation.I'm not sure if your tile has repetition And again, with a small floor, it's not normally an issue.

Many of the things I brought up might not apply to your installation. But discussions held before any thinset is mixed can eliminate frustrations down the road. They also show the installer that you're an interested party, and that you'll appreciate the effort they put towards giving you a quality installation.

I'm not sure which finish you have on that tile, but there are grout release and sealing restrictions with the satin finish. You can find all that on the manufacturers website.

Again, good luck!

Are you sure it's not X girl ?