Parker 25, wrote (660nm red LED combined with metal halide 5000-6500K) that sure is a heck of a lot of light. Photosynthesis for citrus max out at 650 PAR which is about 1/3 of full sunlight. Supplying more than 650 PAR is wasted light that a citrus tree cannot use, and therefor offers no additional advantage to the tree. For a citrus tree to obtain additional benefits after 650 PAR is applied, is to lengthen the time that the tree is receiving light (15 or 16 hours per day). - Silica

True but 650 par at the top doesn't mean 650 par into the canopy. The sun does a great job of entering the canopy to a larger degree than normal methods of artificial lighting. The often mentioned "penetration" even though I dislike the term.

650 par That has got to be the worlds biggest golf course

Photosynthetically active radiation.

keep in mind trees can adapt to what light is available and change what spectrums they absorb. But not to a point where you can give them green light only.

True that citrus can adjust to climatic conditions somewhat, but still the max for citrus tree photosynthesis remains at 650 PAR; Sun light can penetrate the canopy to some extent , but not enough to enable a citrus tree to produce much interior fruit at all. Almost all fruit on a citrus tree is exterior growing fruit. - Silica

I agree for the most part but what I'm saying is if artificial light is directly above a tree you might light up the top 2 layers. With the sun being a moving object you could expect t to light up another 2 layers due to the changing angles.

Using higher par should help offset the lack of movement by "pushing" more light through the canopy. Leaves are translucent not opaque. Hard to believe but true.

You do get around the problem by using multiple light sources or reflection off walls. Which is why inverse square doesn't really have to apply indoors.

Pip313 you hit the "cure" for extending light to the interior and sides of the tree when using artificial light, and that is through reflection by enclosing the tree in a white or silver reflective surface. - Silica

You mean like this. Meiwa in a double tall bucket light

New Zealand Lemonade tree hiding inside a bright trash can

Original seed grown Meiwa 3 years ago with its bucket light.

hardy Chicago next to 2 story bucket light. 2 years ago. Grew 1 inch per week.Meiwa in lower bucket 3 years agoSun shine fall 2013

The compact florescent is the only bulb that is small enough not to cook your tree but make it grow like a weed

I just priced out T-8 Vs T-5 fixtures. The T8 two-bulb 48 inch with plug in cord fixtures coat $10.99. The T5 two-bulb 48 inch cordless fixture cost $34.99.

The best T8 bulbs I found put out 2900 Lumens for 32 watts.

The best T5 bulbs I found put out 2950 Lumens for 28 watts

The best T5Ho bulbs put out 4900 Lumens for 54 watts

The best CFL's I found were the 1700Lumens for 23 watts

3 CFL's 23 watts $7.50 put out 5100 Lumens

2 bulb T8 fixture $10.99 plus$7.00 for 2 bulbs 5800 lumens.

some one told me that my bucket lights will not work on bigger trees.

My 23 watt 5 gallon bucket light will however fit inside my Meyer lemon tree

121-30-15 checkup

6 US897 around 2 kuharske citrange. 2nd KC in cup trarium

7 US897 around not visible Kuharske getting rooted.

6^ US897 around rooted Kuharske.

3 US897 + 3 Kuharske rooting around rooted Kuharske.

Fukushu #2 has completed its growth spurt.

How they started

Fukushu#1 has trunk pulled over because it is 3 inches taller than it's CFL light.

New Zealand lemonade tree has fruit on it and has completed growth spurt.

the lemonsMeiwa just completed its growth spurt.

They look great! The lemonade especially is a really nice shape with such glossy dark leaves!

Steve,

I appreciate this thread. This is the reason people come to this site and hopefully continue to view this as a top web resource for citrus. I have a HO T5 set up but it is pretty small and I think I will end up supplementing with your set up since it is cheap and I can wire up as many boxes as I need in my garage.

I hope others are inspired to develop similar threads

~Mick

Not much visible change to photograph. I have thinned the lemons down to 4 and I got some growth spurts on my Cuban Shaddock

How far is the light bulb from the top of the plant in your setups?

I have the bulb about 8 inches away, does that sound about right?

As close as 3 inches. I get as close to the highest point so that the lower leaves are closer. Your leaves will curl and deform if it is to close. This give you a chance to correct things. If you are touching the leaves and stem are killed at that touch point.

experiment with your trees to get the safe closest distant.

12-27-15

US897 seed grown rootstock

12-27-2015Kuharske Citrange cuttings. Cutting to left 7 weeks old. Cutting to right sniped from left cutting 3 weeks ago and has grown 2 inches in past 7 days.

12-27-2015

Kuharske rooted cuttings removed from lights 2 weeks ago still growing well.12-27-2015

Still under the 23

12-27-2015

Meiwa explode a 4th time in 5 months

12-27-2015No changes to either Fukushu12-27-2015I was Scared when I thought my lemonade tree was a finger limeI realized I got my finger caught in the picture.

12-27-2015

Lemonade tree pictures that would not post in my above entry12-27-2015

1-17-16

Meiwa has put on new growth and kumquats. One of 6 clusters

Fukusku #1 with very little growthFukushu #2 with 3 inches growth in light green. I put a sweet potato tuber in the dirt to draw wire worms away from my trees roots. It has sprouted. I will take cutting from that for my slips for this summer's Sweet potato crop.

New Zealand lemonade tree darkening the leaves of last growth spurt. All 4 lemons have dropped. lower foot of stem remove from picture.

Sweetlee tangerine tree cutting leafing out. This cutting is from leaf node 100 +/- 5 nodes.

The plant sit inside an upside down bottomless bucket and the bucket light is placed on top. this way I don't bump the plants when I lift the bucket light up to tend the cuttings.

Steve,

I have two citrus and several other ornamental plants that I want to bring into my garage for the winter. I was wondering if you think I could use several of these CFL lights and a makeshift tent around all of my plants? I have about 5 plants all together and they are in 5 gallon containers. The problem is that the citrus are about 5 feet tall while the ornamentals are about 3 feet. I was thinking of making the lights hang at different heights to get the best result. I was thinking four lights if I huddle all the plants together. What do you think?

~Mick

Mickj I think that might work fine. What might work better in your case is to use CFL flood/spot lights. These are built to reflect all the light forward from the bulb. Get the larger diameter bulb. it's reflection device is more efficient than the smaller diameter bulb. LED spot/flood may work even better but let the price difference decide if it is better. I have about 42 CFL's and At $2 each VS $10 for the floods, $$$$ made the decision for me. I also get the buckets, sockets, electrical boxes and wire plug set up from scraps so I have chosen this way for me.

The 4 foot 2 bulb T8 shop fixtures with its own plug fitted with the better bulbs are a very inexpensive and easier way to go. Just plug them in and hang them from their own chain inside your tent and you are off.

Your biggest worry is the temperature in your garage. The soil must stay over 55F. My garage drops down to as low as 10F. What about your basement or a closit with white wall. 2 Five gallon buckets are 2 feet wide.

I think the temp should be fine. The garage shares a wall with the house and here in Texas our lows are only in the forties. I will let you know what it looks like

Steve & Pip,

Unfortunately, not many of the US-897 seeds sprouted this fall (I wasn't aware I had to refrigerate them during storage and that they don't store well), though a couple did. I was fortunate enough to have a nice guy at the CCPP send me some C-35 seeds that were harvested earlier this month. Would either of you be interested in some? The seeds I did attempt to start are already sprouting after a week in a plastic baggie resting on one of my ballasts.

Let me know!

-Tom

Don't feel bad mine got moldy and I only have 1.

thanks for the offer but it's too cold for shipping.

No problem, I can keep the seeds in my fridge (where they're at now) until the spring, if you're interested.

Tom Thanks for offering. I will not need any. I have 28 US897, 4 Kuharske Citrange and 3 poncirus trifoliatas. I do have extra US 897's I can send to you and Pip when its warm. I am hardening mine off for later use and possible shipping. The Kuharske Citrange cuttings root like weeds. I have yet to try the US897 from cuttings

That would be great, thanks. I swear I have contaminated water, I can't root cuttings, get grafts to take easily, or sprout seeds successfully they all mold. It's Detroit water too, some of the best in the country as far as taste and low ppm.

tom, I wouldn't mind trying c35

Excellent! I'll hold off on shipping until March or April when the weather isn't so foreboding.

Steve, I'm impressed with your success rate with the 897. I'll probably end up taking your offer at some point. I've seen your approaches, and they seem to be very effective!

And Pip, I'm surprised you're having such a hard time. Great Lakes water is fantastic (I know since I grew up on near the shores of Lake Michigan). When I graft my Valentine onto some rootstock in the distant future, I'll send you (and Steve) one if you don't already have it by then. But that's a ways out, haha.

-Tom

1-21-16 A change in my rooting chamber

Rooting chambers with their sweetlee tangerine cuttings sit on top of the warm yellow bucket that light Fukushu kumquat #1

The entire set up runs at about 85-90F

Recycling your waste heat to promote root growth makes a lot of sense.

Guys is it possible to make sudden light change to Citrus Limequat? Now plant is blooming+growing new leaves, branches. Almost whole winter i`ve been using artificial light CFL 6500k 5W (800lm) and LED 12W (Red Blue ratio 3:1) now i`ve bought T5 fixture 2x39w and i want to use it.

Can i safely switch artificial light 1 month before spring? or i should wait for next winter season?

One month! I WOULD WAIT. You have to much to loose and to little time to get any significant gain before your spring set out time.

That`s current setup i mentioned

This setup not provides same amount of lux in whole plant area. There are always shaded area i measured from 100 to 400 lux its like nothing, Led covering area ~10000-15000 lux, CFL at close range ~4000 lux farest leaves get 700-1000 lux.

What if use T5 2x39w 6500k now? Putting fixture in high height to make sure the amount of lux is the same or little bit higher in leaves zone like now led light provides, (about ~20000 lux). And all the leaves will get equally same amount of light at the time. Maybe then there nothing to loose? What do you think?

Thanks

You will probably be safe with that. My light is about 2 inches from the top most growth so I would need to be careful. When I set my plants out the sun is much higher than than your sun is when yous set yours out. Sun scalding is a real risk for me and can take over a month to get my plants out to full sun.

1-30-2016

My trees are out for a spraying. It is 61 F and sunny. Very little to no new growth on any of the citrus trees. The root stocks have been remove to make room for 4 home grafted lemonade on US897 trees and 1 home grafted tangerine on Kuharske Citrange. The 4 lemonade trees were grafted 1-23-16 and will be 10 days old by 2-3-16 and I will see if any survived. The tangerine was grafted 1-27-16 and will get check 2-7-16 for life. Pictures and thread of the grafted tree.

5 home grafted trees

Video of my 2 Fukushu kumquats, Meiwa kumquat, and New Zealand Lemonade tree,

From all the pics you have posted, it doesn't look like you have much (if any) leaf drop on your trees. They always seem to look good!

That they do! Steve, how are the outdoor trees handling the cold?

-Tom

It takes more than 10 days to graft. Wait a month before unwrapping.

James I have had many growth spurts so they are full of leaves. The trees are dropping the older summer leaves slowly. By the time spring comes in 3 months I will have shed most of the early summer leaves of 2015. It is very hard growing citrus this far north. There is not much difference bringing the trees in from autumn's low sun and short days to indoor lights. Taking the trees out from indoor light to late springs high sun with long days is very hard to do with out leaf loss.

Tom All 3 of the tangerine trees have died back within a foot of the ground where they were covered well for use as grafting root stock. My unheated cold frame has kept the Cuban Shaddock alive but all the new shoots have died. The leaves were tiny and undeveloped so I think the tree did not loose much.

Pip I use Teflon tape and it will stretch so I won't have to remove it for months on end. I will be checking the scion for life and bending the US897 over to force the buds. I also have to open the bag up to let more air in and to promote more water movement through the graft joint

2-14-16

Lemonade tree is growing more shootsMeiwa kumquat with fruitsMore fruit on MeiwaThe yellow bucket provides light to Fukushu#1 and heat to the root base of the Sweetlee cuttings above. The white bucket above the yellow give light to the Sweetlee cutting tops. The sweetlee cutings ar 6 weeks old and show no traces of roots
Fukushu #2 is uncovered and the orange bucket provides heat and light to the lemonade-US897 grafted tree.

The Cuban Shaddock in my basement is flowering profusely and appears to be setting fruit

grafting Fukushu to US897

vapor tight grafting chamber.

The graft

I got a real tight wrap on it and I looped the tape over the leaf stem an used masking tap to hold the loop's end in place. It holds tight and will simply unwrap when it is time.

Just M

eiwa

I tried a variation of Steve's setup. I hung a fluorescent grow light above my two 5 ft tall trees and then hung 4 23 Watt CFLs at different levels in the canopy and wrapped them in a reflective material. I left town for 3 weeks while a neighbor took care of them and returned to hundreds of blooms and my garage smelled like an orange forest. This whole set up cost less than $100 the fluorescent grow light was $75 alone. Its not pretty but it worked surprisingly well.

~Mick

3-2-16
New Zealand lemonade tree is the only tree with new growth.

shoots on left up shots on right down.

Meiwa kumquat is flowering and quating

DNA splicing of sweetpotato vines for better fruit.

DNA from Willie the whale. up and down complete with barnacles.

DNA from Jabba the Hutt

DNA from the singer that sings the opera's last song

DNA from a live conch.

It too has barnacles at its one end

I have shut down the bucket light system and all my trees are outside in warm weather for the next 2 weeks. My last frost for my micro zone is April 1st. This was a good day to spray my trees for scale and spider mites. I will probably need to bring the trees in for a total o 5 to 10 days for short cold snaps.

Steve,

I have moved my trees outside and have noticed some of the new green leaves are falling off and there appears to be dieback on a few branches. What would you recommend? They where absolutely thriving inside using the CFL lights. I am thinking to move them into an area that gets more direct light...here in Texas during the summer my citrus get a little scorched so I try to give them a little shade but maybe its still too cool.

Best,

~Mick

I am thinking that under lights with no wind they grow more foliage than roots so I am being very careful not to let my trees get any sun or wind for the first week or 2. To day is bright sun so on to the back porch for them.

Yep, you're both right. Plants grown indoors have a very steady environment; there's almost no wind and dim (but prolonged) light. Those two promote foliage growth with minimal root stress. When you take a bunch of foliage that was previously optimized for low-light situations and place them outdoors, the flood of sunshine combined with the desiccating properties of wind overwhelm the root absorption capacity.

Of course, plants can adapt to a degree by constricting their stomata and adjusting how much leaf area is exposed to direct sunlight. This is why some plants initially wilt when placed outside and then "magically" recover after a couple hours.

-Tom

while my citrus trees are outside in ground or in and out in pots my CFL bucket light are on other tasks

New Zealand lemonade on US897 tree with 7 Italian basil and one sweet potato under bucket light plant

Hardy Chicago fig tree with US897 seedlings and Italian parsley and a fig cutting under cup to root.