Yes. Jackie's point is well-taken.

When I started out, I wanted to grow the roses that Beales and Thomas said were the best. They gave Polyanthas, Teas, and Chinas short-shrift.

Eventually, I learned that for where I live those men were pretty much wrong wrong wrong. Their "must grows" were my "No-Grow" roses.

I will always do best with Teas and Chinas, and with most of the Poly-Teas, such as 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner,' and 'Lady Ann Kidwell'.

I love the growth habit of The Fairy and think it would appear very lovely in front of Buff Beauty. My two Mlle. Cecille Brunners that flank my pathway grew to be nearly 5 feet tall in a couple years, but they are on rootstock. My Borderer never grew taller than just under 3'.

I live in Richmond, Ca in the North S.F. Bay area.

Lux.

I haven't had any mildew problems with Hermosa here in Oakland, but I've only had it during the drought years. It's a plant I tend to forget about, even though it's growing along my front walk. It's next to a Daphne genkwa that gets all my attention and love.

I don't know how they'd do in alkaline soil, but if their reported ancestries are correct, 'Clotilde Soupert' and 'Pink Soupert' are Poly-Teas. Seeing the list of Hybrid Musks, I didn't think about the alkaline soil issue, being as I thought they'd also have "issues" considering their Multiflora ancestry. Perhaps they have enough "other stuff" in them to let them do well. It's not an issue for me here, where the native soil is acid-leaning red clay.

:-)

~Christopher

Trish,

Just noticed you brought up Pink Gruss and Aachen. I was recently wondering how this rose does in warm dry climates and if it has mildew tendencies. I was thinking about geting one for a pot.

Christopher, the "Poly-Teas" do just fine in our alkaline (INCREASINGLY alkaline/saline) conditions. But the "pure" Polyanthas struggle badly.

I just purchased "Pink Cracker Rose" this summer at the NYC greenmarket and I love it. I thought it might be Pink Pet but Helpmefind says otherwise: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.40071&tab=32

They suggest it might really be "Burbank Rose" introduced in the 1930s (?).

Whatever it is , It is very charming. I hope it survives the winter. Have to add that the pink Clotilde Soupert shown above is very beautiful.

N.B. I have Sweet Chariot and I love that, too.

'Pink Gruss an Aachen' sometimes sold as 'Irene Watts'.

Yeah, ask Marlorena about it.. She grows 'both'..

China Doll makes a nice compact low border, and has the advantage of being almost thornless. Lightly scented and almost continuously flowering. I don't know how it would do in Palo Alto, but it does well here in the Adelaide region of South Australia, and is often used for mass and public plantings since it's so reliable and easy care.

''Irene Watts''/'Pink Gruss'.... got mildew here by mid September, but the blooms were still good nonetheless...

I grew The Fairy 20 years ago and didn't like that it kept its messy brown and withered flowers for ever. Deadheading was a chore with those thorns.

Nik, Ingrid grows Pink Gruss an Aachen as well, and her climate is more similar to yours, I would think, as I have humid summers. Anyway, it doesn't suffer from mildew, that I have seen, but does get blackspot. I am spraying roughly fortnightly with milk (1 part to about 2-3 water). Normally I see mildew 3 or 4 roses, and a penstemon, but since spraying, I have seen none.

Trish

Trish, that's very interesting that you have success with milk spray - at what stage do you start spraying? Early Spring or does it depend on the weather?

Another question, do you use 'full cream' milk? I think I read somewhere that it was the fat in the milk that acted as some sort of barrier, but I'm not sure .... Tricia

Another vote for Caldwell Pink--in my climate it starts blooming a little later than our other roses, but then it just chugs away, blooming on and on and on... Tough, mannerly, and low maintenance.

Tricia, I started spraying in early Spring. This is the first year I've tried it. Yes, I read too, to use full cream milk. The 3 roses that are blackspot magnets are far less badly affected than I've seen before, though it is still present. The milk dries to a hard shine on the leaves, so maybe this is how it works.

Trish

I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughtful comments. It has been very helpful. I am leaning toward Cecile Brunner.

I also had a question about the designation poly-tea, which has come up in a few of the posts. My sense is that it's not an official category, so it probably is kind of loose. I am wondering on whether or not Marie Pavie/Daly could fit into that category.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, it is my impression that she does.

I don't know what your soil/water conditions are, but for me both Marie Pavie and Marie Daly tend to get chlorosis unless I give them acidic fertilizer. Cecile Brunner, on the other hand, doesn't have that problem.

I'm also more partial to Cecile because I think the flowers are prettier, and they drop their petals when they're done. So you don't get those unsightly dried brown blobs.

As I mentioned previously, this discussion has been most helpful. I probably should clarify where I am in the rose planting process and fill you in a bit more on what I am doing. Among the roses that I mentioned in my opening post, I currently only have the Lady Banks, which is quite happy growing against the fence in my front yard. I am planning on putting the other bushes in this winter. I have also installed a gray water system, which I will use the water the roses in the summer.

So there are quite a few conditions that I have to think about as I select roses for my yard.

Among them:

1. My yard is fairly small (about 20' X 20'). The orientation is north east, so the 8' closest to the front of my single house are shaded, so the actual space is more like 12' X 20'.

2. The house is in an old residential neighborhood, with lots of trees and houses fairly close together. But there are no trees in my front yard, or my neighbor's yard to the southwest. Based on a formula I found on another thread, I think I have about 5.0 to 6.5 hours of rose light from the spring equinox to the fall equinox. From fall to spring, it's closer to 3.0-3.5.

Up to this point, I had mostly been focusing on the issue of sunlight in considering rose selection, but thanks to this discussion I realize that I also need to consider Ph, since the soil here is naturally alkaline and gray water has a neutralizing effect. The mantra on gray water discussion boards is don't try to plant acid loving plants on a gray water system. It's just inviting disappointment.

But I am pretty confident that certain roses do fine on gray water. This is based on my neighbor's experience. She installed a gray water system three years ago. She hates ornamental plants and wants to grow edibles. She has one very large rose next to her cottage. It has cream yellow blossoms that are pink on the ends and turn increasingly pink when exposed to the sun. She had never watered the rose and regularly cuts it back aggressively so that it wouldn't compete with a fig tree she was growing. But given the layout of her yard, she needed to put one of her watering basins between the rose and the fig, even though she didn't want to provide the rose with any water. The rose has flourished, doubling in size, while the fig doesn't seem to really like the gray water and is fading. There seem to be zero adverse effects on the rose, so I think I should be fine, if I chose the right kind of plant.

That brings me to a few more limitations on my selections.

3. According to the gray water person who will install my system, I have enough water for 10-12 plants. More than that wouldn't work and less than that won't be efficient.

4. I also need to arrange the plants so they are in the bottom half of my front yard (toward the sidewalk), since the system runs on gravity. But that works, since I need to position plants away from the house to avoid its shadow, anyway. So as mentioned above, I'm dealing with 12' X 20' bed. The Lady Banks is planted exactly on the property line. It grows up the fence with branches arching upward. Currently it is about 8' high and 2' wide. I plan to let it grow higher, but there is currently new home construction going on in that lot. They want to install a new fence, so I'm keeping the Lady Banks trimmed until the fence is replaced. Even after that I plan to keep it fairly narrow at the base. The people across the street grow their Lady Banks like that and it does very well.

5. And finally, I have been working with Antique Rose Emporium. They have been extremely patient and helpful as I ask questions and change my order. They will be shipping the plants in early January. At this point, I wouldn't want to pull my order, after everything they have done for me, so I am limited to their inventory, which is great and more than enough. So no problem there, but it is a factor to take into consideration.

So given all that, I have decided to make some changes to my original plan. I don't think I'll try the hybrid musks, given their lineage. Besides, trying to grow two of them would have taken up too much space anyway. Instead, I thought I would go with one old garden tea. I could devote a large percentage of my space to that and then fill in with small shrubs.

Although it probably seems counter-intuitive, I am leaning toward one of the larger ones, Marie van Houtte. It would basically take up 1/2 my available area, since I would allocate close to 10' diameter space for it. But I think it's worth it. To my eye, it is one of the prettier ones. I like the color blend. And it seems to be very tough, which I like. I also like the idea that I wouldn't really have to do anything with half my front yard. I could just let it go and make its very dramatic statement. It would provide me nice privacy from the road and sidewalk traffic. And it would conceal the sloppy stems/trunks at the base of the Lady Banks. (And I wonder if that isn't the rose that my neighbor has.)

The Lady Banks and Marie van Houtte together would take up 14' of my 20' long rectangular bed.

I would place Cecile Brunner at the 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 4 o'clock, and 5 o'clock positions around the Marie van Houtte. Since there would be nothing at 3 o'clock, that will buy me a little more length, but I will still lose about 1 more foot, so I'm at 15 and halfway to my total of 10 plants.

A meandering path from the spigot in the front of my house to to the sidewalk will be 1.5 feet.

That leaves me a 3.5 foot wide area running along my driveway/front walk.

So here is my question, which relates back to the original question: What should I plant in the border. I'm thinking I would zigzag the plants.

Here are some likely candidates:

1. Gruss an Aachen. Given that I have chosen the Cecile Brunner for another element, I think white might be a nice contrast. This was one of my original favorites, but I cut it out for various reasons. I like that it has larger flowers, some fragrance, compact growth, and good disease tolerance. I know it is currently classed as a floribunda, and so potentially not suited for the alkaline soil here, but its lineage seems like it has a lot of genetic material from old garden teas. So would it be okay?

2. Little White Pet. Certainly would save a lot of space with this one. I'm not crazy about the size the flowers or the lack of fragrance, but it's nice and neat, and apparently indestructible. Does it tolerate alkalinity?

3. Caldwell Pink/Pink Pet. Some posters have already suggested this one. It seems very tough. It's pink, but the shade is very different from Cecile Brunner to my eyes, brighter and more lilac. And the flower form looks different, too. It's purportedly a China, so it should tolerate the soil and gray water okay.

4. Martha Gonzales/Fabvier. It could make a very neat border. The darker color would add a nice contrast. My concern is that it would be on the shadier end of my yard with a total of 5 hours rose light in summer, would it do well in that environment?

Apologies for the very long post. Thanks as always for your thoughtful opinions and advice.

--Jim

Go Cardinal!

Jim -- First -- Worry less about hours of full sun. It is far less important in California than it is in -- say, England -- where that "rule" came from. The roses that do best in my conditions have morning sun only ... or maybe some morning, and an hour or so of late light. One of my best roses flourishes in the shade of a massive seedling avocado tree.

Your neighbor's rose? If it's a bush, it may well be 'Peace'. The banksiaes are monster climbers -- and their yellow does not "pink" -- though, if it is a very very prickly climber, with small blooms, and does not repeat bloom, it could be 'Fortune's Double Yellow.'

'Marie van Houtte' is a lovely rose, and an easy keeper. You should enjoy her.

How alkaline ARE your conditions? I am bet. 8.3 and 8.5. THAT is alkaline. I think that the ideal is down in the 7's. If you aren't sure, test your soil/water to be sure. You may have little or nothing to worry about.

Jeri -- On the SoCal Coast

I grow White Cecile Brunner, and in my blistering hot summer climate, it still is everything that Jeri described. White Pet is a work horse that remains on the small size. White Pet's roses are small, but if that is a concern....

Rita Sammons is a pink rose which has remained on the small side. I am very happy with it. Gruss an Aachen has remained fairly small, but mine is not mature yet. The color variations are quite interesting... which I like.

White Pet

Rita Sammons ( it is a sport of Cecile Brunner)

Lynn

I haven't tested the pH of the soil, but according to Palo Alto utilities website, the water is pH 8.5 (range of 8.3 to 8.7).

Read the wrong column: range of 8.6 -9.7 as measured on 12/01/15. It was 9.7 in the AM and 8.6 in the PM.

My soil is on the alkaline side, being decomposed granite, although of course I amend the soil when I plant. I have Gruss an Aachen, Pink Gruss an Aachen and White Pet and none of them have had problems with disease. I must confess that White Pet just does not excite me, although it's a nice enough little rose. A small rose I do like is Mr. Bluebird, which is basically a China although it's classed as a polyantha. Another is International Herald Tribune, although I don't know if the Antique Rose Emporium offers either one of them. They both stay small for me. A tea rose that looks very much like Marie van Houtte but stays smaller is Mrs. Dudley Cross. It's also a lovely rose.

I talked to my neighbor this morning. She had a soil test done about 10 years ago. She couldn't remember the exact number, but it was very alkaline. She has been amending the soil for years, so it is likely to be much improved.

Yup. That's alkaline.

OK, you should try to avoid any roses with a strong Multiflora background. In your conditions, they WILL be chlorotic. 'Sweet Chariot' as much as I love it, won't be wonderful for you.

'International Herald tribune' would be great for you, and it does NOT go chlorotic. You can buy it from Burlington Rose Nursery: http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=17.18773 -- it is in California (also, Angel Gardens and Rose Petals -- both in Florida.) You will love it. But do NOT prune it for at least 3-4 years.

You can get some improvement by using things like soil sulphur -- but I'm too lazy for that, for the most part. I just avoid Multifloras, and mostly do just fine.

FYI, 'Mrs. Dudley Cross' mildewed here MISERABLY, so we got rid of her, and instead planted 'Marie van Houtte'.

Any opinions on Martha Gonzales/Fabvier? Does it suffer from chlorosis? I like the idea of a short red border along my front walk.

Think about 'Papa Hemeray' -- Definitely small, completely disease-free, tolerates alkalinity -- and I love the blooms.

I was wondering how far I should plant Cecile Brunner from Marie van Houtte. I was thinking about 6.5 feet.

Thanks.

Jim, I think that's a good estimate.
That will look very bare at first, but you can in-fill with annuals, or salvia (I love salvaias) until things grow up.

Wow. So it really is going to get 10' X 10'? I sure hope so, since I'll have carved out the space for it. Should be exciting to watch it grow.

Salvia sounds like a good companion plant. I have lots of the native version in my backyard, where it seems to be very happy in the shade of my oak tree. The front yard is much sunnier, so it should do even better there.

Thanks, everyone, for all your great insights.

--Jim

I love the idea of 'Marie Van Houtte' taking up much of the space, it will provide a "wall of roses' affect, and I adore its' rich Tea scent. It has a rich ivory hue with pink and yellow and a gorgeous globular bloom form, I also grow 'Mrs. Dudley Cross' which has a nice scent in the right conditions and has the virtue of being smooth stemmed, no prickles to rip clothing and skin. I've seen Mrs. D-C grow to be dc. 7' tall by nearly as wide but it was budded onto rootstock, my own root plant is c. 7 years old and is still only 4 and 1/2 feet tall by 5 + feet wide.

Lux.

I'm glad to hear you mention its fragrance. Reports seem varied, with Beales labeling it VF (very fragrant) but HMF users rating the fragrance "good -". I guess we'll see.

I just found out that the water here is 8.1. Does that mean I'm on the "good" side of alkaline? I can grow Wild Edric which looks almost 100% rugosa and its leaves are green. Its flowers are definitely purplish, but other roses like The Dark Lady and now Rina Hugo are much more reddish than they should be. Wonder what that means.

Nope. You're alkaline. Just not as alkaline as I am. I'd be shocked if you were not.

Ingrid, 7 is a neutral ph, and numbers larger than 7 are alkaline; the larger the number, the more alkaline the soil. Numbers below 7 are acidic, and the smaller the number, the more the acidic the soil. Diane

Ingrid, I meant to add that your water is alkaline and most likely your soil is, too. Diane

How about La Marne. It's earthkind and has lovely soft pink blooms. I have mine in part shade and it's doing well. Foliage is healthy and the blooms in cooler fall weather are spectacular.

I also have Martha Gonzales lining a path as a border. It needs morning sun and preferably sun all day here in Texas. The two that I have in part shade do not bloom as much and get PM in wet spring weather. Martha with Artemesia makes a lovely combination.

If you are willing to consider an earlier floribunda, Pink Rosette makes a wonderful low compact hedge and has very few thorns. It tolerates alkaline soil/water with some basic ammendments and flowers regularly. I also like Rita S. but mine still likes to try to be 4-5 feet as a mature plant.

A link to my Pink RosettesPink Rosette

Kitty,

I was told that Rita S. would remain around 3'. Mine is a 2 1/2 year old plant that it is about 2'. If it wants to become larger than 3', hopefully with pruning, I can keep it in this range. I really like R.S. but a 5' plant would not work where she's planted. I believe that your growing season is longer than mine, so that could make a difference too....

Lynn

How fortunate to garden in Palo Alto! I grew up there, but now garden outside Portland Oregon and my Buff Beauty grows monstrously, like an octopus, but is a thing a beauty. Your choice of a pink in front of this buff-yellow rose is interesting. Most people do not use this combination, but I think that yellowish next to pink helps cut the "too-sweetness" of pink. So I would suggest two roses: David Austin's Harlow Carr (it is a hedging rose, on the small side as you require) and Bonica. I know Bonica is not an old rose, but it is amazingly floriferous and blooms continuously in just the right shade of pink.

I had the impression that Bonica was a taller rose, but I've never grown it so I'm judging from pictures. I also grow Pink Rosette but to me the flowers would be a little too strong of a pink, and it has a perfectly round outline which is okay for my one small plant but I'm not sure I'd want a whole hedge of it. However, mine is an informal country garden and that does make a difference.

Bonica does not get tall here, where roses grow large easily, but it has a nice round shrub like form. Its sport, Royal Bonica, does get taller here. Diane

Royal Bonica

Bonica is a great suggestion. It is bulletproof here.

Jim, I think you might as well cross Marie Daly off your list. I'm about two towns south of you on the Peninsula so my conditions are similar to yours, including the alkaline soil. I grow Marie Pavie here. While it is a wonderful plant in many ways, it does get mild chlorosis. It also wants to be about 5 feet tall and 4 feet wide, so it is a bigger plant than you have in mind. From what I understand, Marie Daly is just like its sport parent except in color.

I also suggest that you stick to annual rather than perennial salvias as your filler plants. The perennials ones will be more difficult to remove once your roses get some size on them. I went down that same path a few years ago. There are a number of lovely drought tolerant annuals that will fill in nicely for you, and can be eliminated later once you no longer need them. Short lived perennials like lavenders and thyme can work, too. I'd keep away from aggressive selfseeders. They can become weeds. An example is nigella, love-in-the-mist, which self sews aggressively all over the place here. And beware artemisias. Some are thugs that spread by underground roots.

I can't remember if Austin's Tamora has been suggested, but she stays small-smallish for most growers, and is lovely. Diane

Tamora