Mine died fairly quickly, a couple of yrs, after the needlecast started. A "cure" is impossible - treatment difficult at best -- regularly spraying the needles w/fungicide twice a yr. With a large tree this can become impractical.

Most important is where you are at -- eastern US is worst. Upper midwest/Great Lakes perhaps not quite as bad.

Second that-where you are is the greatest predictor of success/failure when attempting Rocky Mountain and other western pines. We've had a smattering of Pinus ponderosa here in the area for years. One or two somehow have ended up nicely while others never look good no matter how dry the summer or what have you. Jeffryi is going to act the same I'm afraid. So d m, where is this?

Additionally, I suppose one could start a regimen of copper-based fungicides if they were so inclined. Not saying I would, but it is theoretically possible to baby this thing along via chemical protective agents.

+om

to repeat .... conifers can be very regional ... and trying to grow one.. too far outside of its normal cultural range can be extremely hard ...

its one of the downsides of mail order ...

it never fails to amaze me.. how many things i can grow in my z5 MI ... that dave can NOT grow in his z5 st louis ... he says its night time humidity from the mississippi river ... that is the problem ... in the heat of summer of course ... wait.. its kansas city??? ... whatever... the river is the same .. lol ...

same with doug firs ... those from one side of the mountains... can grow in MI ... those from the other side of the mountains.. can NOT grow in MI ...

where are you ... and why are you fixated on this particular plant??

frankly.. when it comes down to chemicals... no plant is really worth the cost and effort ... and trust me.. i have no qualms about using such .... but sooner or later .... like when its 10 or 20 feet tall ... and you can no longer do it yourself .... are you seriously going to be paying a pro to come spray the thing 3 or 4 times per year ...?? .. when right now... you could replace it with a plant that never ever needs to be sprayed .... for the cost on one years treatments???

the final solution will come.. sooner or later .....again.. trust me on that... though it might take you quite a few years.. to get a hate on for all the problems it creates ...and when you reach your limit.. just be done with it.. and choose something carefree from a different family of conifers ....

ken

From my experience the 2-needle Rocky Mnt ponderosa definitely resists (but not immune to) needlecast better than Jeffrey. But even it will never end up as a decent tree here -- the 70' specimen at Virginia State Arboretum is a sorry sight and barely surviving.

hi!

well thanks for all the info! i thought the chances were bleak for this pine but i had to get a 2nd opinion.

i am actually from across the atlantic from slovenia (between italy & croatia and 'under' austria and hungary). eastern side of the country (zone 8a) - humid continental climate... and it appears there are some similarities with the east coast usa.

i guess it will be replaced with something else, spraying doesn't come as an option in the long run..

ken adrian it is the same over here - there are some jeffreys thriving around here but obviously mine won't and it's not a fixation it's just that i really like this pine (jeffreys in general) and i gave it a try...

so you guys think all western pines are basically a no-go? i was interested in pinus coulteri that is also a western specie..

otherwise there are many quite old douglas firs and sequoiadendrons and incense cedars around here that don't seem to mind hot and humid summers.

There's one really nice (ponderosa) here in town I see most every day on my route. Just a great tree, maybe a 60 footer. But those others I mentioned...not so good.

Dax, great rundown of treatment options. One caveat, this for longterm only, the gradual buildup of copper in the surrounding soil is a real thing. Now if you're doing as Dax describes-trying to lift the plant(s) past youth in the hopes of acclimation, so much the better. But a yearly treatment is quite likely to lead to a too-heavy accumulation of copper in the soil.

I treated a grouping of Picea pungens full of needle blight with Bordeaux mixture once. Most of my colleagues at the time thought it foolhardy. Well, today, that is one of the nicer clusters of Colorado spruce in town. They have not needed treatment since, and that was at least twenty years ago! So a timely treatment-this was actually two sprayings- can do some good, there's no doubt in my mind. Where it gets hairy is like Ken describes-where one is carrying this regimen onward into the tree's adulthood and beyond. That becomes impractical, even if the soil copper buildup isn't a concern for some reason.

+om

eastern side of the country (zone 8a) - humid continental climate... and
it appears there are some similarities with the east coast usa.

==>>> thats a pretty broad generalization ..... sounds like about half of Virginia and further south along the seaboard ........ but not a lot of the further north east ...

anyway ... no clue.. just throwing it out there.. what about P resinosa???

ken

d m, is not Pinus nigra-the Austrian or European black pine viable where you are? I mean, if it's a "hard pine" you're after, that native one should fit the bill, no?

Around here, Austrian pine is becoming useless, what with a variety of needle blights and worse. But what about in its home range?

+oM

Thank you +oM. Appreciate the compliment and learned something as well from you.

d m,

For all general purposes in selecting another pine, I would highly recommend you contact Clement Anthoine in Belgium thru his website 'Anthoine Pinetum.' He has an overwhelming collection of species-conifers and is brilliant concerning which conifers grow in which climates. It seems to me that Mexican species could be of strong interest to you. You might ask him what ones and with very long needles can work for you.

He's not only a collector but also an excellent propagator and would be able to reach into his pinetum for scions to custom graft for you. He's been a very good friend to me in the more than decade's time I've known him.

Dax

- ken adrian; i didn't mean usa, i'm from south central europe ;)

- wisconsitom; yes indeed P. nigra is native here and pretty vigorous too, i have one (P. nigra austriaca) planted further down the hill from Jeff pine and is really growing strong.

otherwise black pines do well throughout the country except in certain areas in karst region (western end of the country) in recent years there has been some serious dieback. whole forests turning brown. ...monoculture don't work!

- dax; thanks a lot for the info will surely check him out! yes, mexican (and other southwestern us) pines were always of great interest though appear really hard to get here. ...even ponderosa and jeffreyi only rarely ever come around...

thanks

d.

Sorry to hear of the demise of large blocks of pines-always a hard sight to take in. Have seen same here in P. resinosa, where annosus root rot, Armillaria, or really, a host of other potential pathogens take hold in plantations. This pine is a high-value commodity here in the Great Lakes states and as such has been planted in great numbers, but sure enough, as you said-the monoculture leaves things vulnerable. Interestingly, to me at least, despite this widespread planting of red pine here, it still only covers perhaps 25% of the acreage it did before the big clearcuts of the 1800s and early 1900s. Still we're seeing problems. Makes one wonder how nature handled things so much better before! And even in that "original" forest, red pine existed in association with white pine and in some cases, the scraggly jack pine. So it's not as though it was just a tree here, a tree there. They were concentrated back then too but there was little to no disease pressure.

+oM

yes, it is a sorry sight. though it's interesting how this or these diseases (last year another factor came in in the shape of Haematoloma dorsata - a pine spittle bug - not fatal but adds insult to injury) work in 'belts', leaving portions of forest intackt. there are 'new' species,that are in fact 'old' ones, returning to several sites and are making things better - mostly oaks and beeches along with some hornbeams. trees that were common before the great clearcuts, that gave rise to Venice, took place. yes, nature obviously doesn't 'do' wrongs, the way man does!

best,

d.

Recently out here long-established, planted Ponderosa and Coulter pines have been going partly brown left and right - but I haven't seen it yet on any Jeffrey pines. Apart from a past commercial presence it seems to me a percentage of these may be souvenirs from trips to California or the Rockies (many of the local Ponderosa look to be examples of ssp. scopulorum) - and not the regionally adapted, native type. In addition to digging up seedlings in their home areas people dwelling here may have been growing them from seeds contained within collected cones.

Since the browning became prevalent I haven't gone to the nearest native stand I know of, southeast of Seattle to see how it is holding up.

Embothrium, I could take a look at it. Where are they, and what do I look for?

I have one Ponderosa from eastern Washington. It's about 60ft. and looking a bit gaunt from the shade it's in from a stand of Chamaecyparis lawsoniana to the south of it and across the driveway. The top looks better because it's in the sun.

Mike