No one in their right mind would go to a Ford, GM, Toyota, etc site and order a car without a breakdown of cost. What if GM said, "You don't need to know the base price or the price of anything you just added to the car. We have your best interest in heart. Just trust us." They would laughed right out of business. But, we are supposed to spend just as much money if not more on kitchen cabinets on a, "Trust me, I have your back."? Uhuh.

Joseph...I didn't say I need to check "if I'm ripping you off"....but if you are unwilling to itemize your pricing it leads me to that conclusion...any reasonable person will draw that conclusion. If I am spending 10k, 20k, 30k on anything you will answer my questions, give me pricing, give me time to go over that info and to make a decision or you don't get my business. If you choose not to do business in a way that I am comfortable with. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all to keep my money and keep shopping.

For brand cabinets, does the KD get a percentage of the sale? If so, of course they don't want you to see the base price and what the bells and whistles cost. In Rebunky's example above, the KD would have lost a bunch on something that required no additional work for the KD and the buyer has no idea what the mark up is.

ETA - I would think KD's are going the way of travel agents. So much is available online now....

"No one in their right mind would go to a Ford, GM, Toyota, etc site and order a car without a breakdown of cost."

oh, that was my X! buying our 1st car after being married - They told him a price and he said 'ok'.

"Joseph...I didn't say I need to check "if I'm ripping you off"..."

dcward89: Is this or is this not a direct quote of you?:

"There is absolutely no reason pricing should be a secret...UNLESS you are being cagey and trying to rip me off.."

Did you say "I need to check if you're ripping me off." ? No, but you clearly implied that anyone who didn't itemize prices was trying to do so.

I made it clear that I don't want customers with such an adversarial attitude especially before we've even begun a relationship. Potentials who use words and phrases like "never, ever, ever", "absolutely", and "you'll never convince me any different" send experienced contractors running for the hills.

I'm having Lasic surgery next Friday for less than 3K. Until I read this thread, I never thought to ask my surgeon how much that was per eye. I did not seek a price from another doctor. I responded to an email ad, got my free exam to find out if I was a good candidate, and signed a deal on the spot based on the professionalism I observed from the doctor and his staff.

I guess I'm just expecting my customers to be more like me. We are not adversaries. He wants to continue to live a doctor's lifestyle and I want to be able to read street signs again.

Joseph, hope you realize I have great respect for both your talent and professionalism..

However, being in healthcare i want to share my opinion about medical advertising. I would probably "never" use a medical/dental/veterinary group that needed to advertise to get patients. I want people with such a good reputation, they get so many professional referrals - they have no need to. Also, for elective procedures (e.g., Lasik, dental implants, plastic surgery), not covered by insurance, patients often ask about pricing.

@jcorlett:

"Potentials who .... send experienced contractors running for the hills."

That works both ways, you are reading about it here. And you really do need to stop comparing contractors to doctors and lawyers.

BTW, I know lots of people who do, in fact, question and analyze medical charges and doctors who question and analyze contractor charges. All in disbelief.

No field of work or reputation buys you that much credibility or privilege. It's a pipe dream.

No way would I go to a doctor who was soliciting his patients through email, offering free exams or sign up on the spot because they all seemed professional. Especially to laser my eyes.

Wanting to know pricing for a purchase is not being adversarial (and there is no reason to make it that way). That is hilarious.

Joseph, if your post wasnt to make a joke and a bit off topic, please do some research before getting surgery. A kitchen can always be redone....An email ad? Really? You are going absolutely against what you are advocating in this discussion. And, for something a bit more important than a kitchen.

I suspect that everybody who replied to the doc's email ad is a good candidate.

" And you really do need to stop comparing contractors to doctors and lawyers."

snookums2:

And why would that be?

Rebunky's story above is a perfect example of a situation where a customer wasn't being adversarial or mistrustful, but just wanted all the information available so that they could make the best decision based on their budget and needs and wound up saving a lot of money on things that weren't high priorities to then, but would have cost a significant amount.

I don't understand how somebody could argue that serious customers shouldn't be given that opportunity.

Joseph Corlett, LLC

" And you really do need to stop comparing contractors to doctors and lawyers."

"And why would that be?"

Everything about it is ridiculous.

I refer you back to the little chat Bry911 had with you not long ago. There have been a few others as well.

Serious customers never have any problem with communications about price. It's a committed partnership to get you the best kitchen that you can afford for your budget.

There is a difference between a price shopper and a serious customer. That difference is the engagement and interest in things offered other than the cheapest price. Asking for a quote with a list of cabinets is only about price, and that's a sad misuse of your first conversation with your potential partner.

If you found 5K worth of the cheapest import cabinets with limited sizes that limited your options, and that's what you decide to go with, regardless of the fact that their white paint wasn't terribly smooth and would rub off when you cleaned it, then you are obviously not interested in durability, or flexibility, or the factory customer service response. That might be fine for a house flipper who's ONLY concern is the bottom line. Most people wouldn't want that for their homes, even if it were the cheapest option.

Most people are seeking value rather than ''price''. They just don't know enough to quantify their own ranking of features--- with price being one of those features--- without giving up some control to someone to help them. So, they focus on some of the superficial buzz words--'' soft close, plywood'' and price, not realizing that there is a whole esoteric world of soft close drawer guides and plywood and that they are NOT at all equal.

That is where a good KD comes in. Their role is to give the customer enough education about the features of their lines so that the customer feels comfortable choosing an appropriate line that has value for themselves. Then the conversation can move to the different options within those lines.

If the KD has done an appropriate functionality interview with the client, this is where they can suggest doing a 4 drawer stack with the spice bottle inserts on the range run because the client has told the KD that they never have enough room for their spices. And this is where the KD tells the client to source their own glass for their doors because they can get it cheaper, but pay for the matching interior upgrade now. Or tells them that the over the over the oven tray dividers are simple to retrofit later but that the corner super susan is not.

Someone who just price shops misses all of that help. They are missing the value that the KD brings to the project.

Great, you found the lowest price on white inset cabinets that you could find. Now what? You have to deal with an 80year old guy at the lumber yard who orders by hand out of the 900 page spec book, and gets it wrong. And the price you got for the original quote changes not just because you added stuff but because he didn't understand how multipliers work. Or you get to work with the bored trophy husband whose husband bought him a design shop to stay busy and who would rather be out playing tennis than listening to you debate the meets of the 10 different whites offered. Or, you found the crook who takes your money and leave you with no cabinets and no way to do anything about it.

Price is only one component of a kitchen purchase. Don't fall into the trap of making it the only thing that you look for. You can always find cheap, and live to regret cheap. Look for the value of the person first. Then the cabinet line. Then the gewgaws in the line. If you don't take the time to do that, then you are shorting yourself on the possibilities and will always have the regret of ''what if''.

Customers are those who buy. They will always get a breakdown. Non customers will not. They will get a verbal explanation. If they wish more design time or a printout of the design or item price list, then it is time for the retainer to be paid.

If I'm paying, I expect a price breakdown.

^^mrspete^^ (if we ever build or renovate something again) Wish we had learned this 2 years ago.

Sorry, the car analogies are quite wrong.

Automakers don't give you a price breakdown of the components going into the whole. You don't get a price for the engine, for the tires which are ALWAYS outsourced - for the seats, for the radio - which are outsourced too, for the glass, again outsourced , so..........

The itemization you think you get is an illusion, or a pacifier for the control freak crowd. Kitchen = car. Engine= Cooktop/ oven cabinet, ect...ect... You never get to see those costs, and would be laughed at if you asked.

Bunky could also have just told her designer that she needed or wanted to cut $2500 off of the price and I'll bet the same thing would have been arrived at. By extension , her husband could have sourced all of the hinges and drawer runners for at least 50% less too. To bad that wasn't asked about . Could have bought the paint cheaper too. And the wood if you're a bargain hunter. And the .......but then you'd be in he cabinet business yourself.

And wake up the next morning and say " this is a lot of work and effort , I better charge more". At which point someone else will come along and say " darling this or darling that can find that for less".

There is always someone willing to make it cheaper, always. And when the market is saturated with cheapies, y'all complain that there's only crap to buy or bash WalMart cause they shipped all the USA jobs off to the PacRim .

Or maybe you just want to know that the special polyglycoat stain protectant only costs $500 xtra for the entire kitchen ? Sorry, floormats are extra , unless you get the diamond sport package , then they're included along with that subscription service you don't want and the full sized spare tire which is only available in this package.

Did I mention that hinge covers with our logo on them are "free" during the holiday special ? Would you like to purchase our extended warranty plan too ?

Sorry, the car analogies are quite wrong.

Automakers don't give you a price breakdown of the components going into the whole. You don't get a price for the engine, for the tires which are ALWAYS outsourced - for the seats, for the radio - which are outsourced too, for the glass, again outsourced , so..........

Really? A standard cabinet doesn't come with sides, a back, a door, a drawer, a shelf, hinges, and slides? That is equal to the base car. Each starts with a base model and the individual decides what options they would like to add. It's exactly the same thing.

"Automakers don't give you a price breakdown of the components going into the whole. You don't get a price for the engine, for the tires which are ALWAYS outsourced - for the seats, for the radio - which are outsourced too, for the glass, again outsourced , "

We also wouldn't be interested in buying a car without an engine, tires or seats. They aren't optional. That's like saying we want to know what the back of the cabinet costs or the screws and glue.

They certainly will give you the price for the type of engine you select or the type of upholstery chosen or the stereo options.

Rebunky might not have gotten the same result if she hadn't seen the price list. Her KD might have suggested she keep those super-expensive pantries and wine shelves and cut corners someplace else, in a way that she wouldn't have chosen herself, and she might have ended up with a kitchen she is far less pleased with.

I don't understand business owners who hear people complain about their business model who then respond with contempt to potential customers claiming their complaints are without any merit. Sorry, but it sounds control-freaky to me. As a business owner, I know if I was hearing these types of complaints about my business model, I would be asking for more details and for what people want to so I can evaluate how to change my model to be more helpful to people instead of a hindrance. Of course, if one has way too much business, they may not choose to do this but few businesses have too much business these days.

Planning something like a kitchen should be a collaborative effort between roughly equal partners. A true collaboration requires that all parties have all the necessary information to make good decisions.

Rebunky also needs to make all financial decisions intentionally and for herself!

"But, we are supposed to spend just as much money if not more [than a car] on kitchen cabinets on a, "Trust me, I have your back."? uhuh."

Not to mention who wouldn't wonder why their kitchen cabinet purchase is costing as much as a car.

Well, in my case my kitchen cabinets have held up a heck of a lot better than my brand new Honda CRV which in the first 3 years had the transmission replaced, the rear differential, the air conditioning unit and the wiper motor. In five years my painted shaker cabinets don't even have a humidity split in them at the corner.

I wonder why my lemon car cost as much as my kitchen cabinets.

An auto is considerably more complex than cabinetry is so its price makes sense. I guess having things go wrong with them because they are so complicated also makes sense. You're not supposed to get stuck with a lemon anymore though when you make that large purchase.

Okay.. so the consensus is:

1 - If you do not give a breakdown of pricing, we will not do business with you.

2 - If you want a breakdown or not give me business, that is fine, I do not want your business.

Did I miss anything?

R

^^snookums2^^ I was that dummy TWICE in the last 2 years. Nevermore....

A car is a several thousand pound movable object that travels on roads, sometimes on bad roads, sometimes at high speeds, with other several thousand pound objects. There are probably a thousand things that could go wrong on a car causing a crash. You want good design, engineering, and assembly to prevent those possibilities. Plus, you want safety features in the event of a collision. Those are the types of basics you're paying for in the base price. Then you start adding options for comfort and convenience.

While there are safety factors in kitchen design, like proper clearances around cooktops to prevent fire hazards, I would hardly put kitchens and cars in the same category. Until there are safety tests for kitchens, similar to crash safety tests and kitchens must meet other criteria cars must meet regarding emissions standards, fuel consumption fleet averages, yada yada, I think this comparison is ridiculous.

Simply put, if you're driving on the highway and your doors fall off, you could crash or cause others to crash. People could die. If your doors fall off your kitchen cabinets, not so much.

I rephrased that, nightowl, lol.

Okay.. I broke down and read .... most... the posts.

People look at things differently. That is okay. Just because a remodel person does not give prices does not make them bad NOR does it mean they are rude or selfish. Maybe they are looking for folks that flat out don't care about the nitty gritty of each cabinet. That is okay, it really is.

On the other hand, just because a potential customer asks for a price breakdown, does not mean they are cheap... but.. let's be truthful.. so many more ARE looking for a cheaper deal. These folks all deal with people like us every day, so they WOULD know better.

That being said.. I always want a breakdown.. not to be cheap, but to make sure mistakes are not made because KD or not.. it is MY fault if I did not ask or check and re-check.

I would not expect a breakdown till I agreed to the base price.. and then only to make sure I spent the 30k where I wanted.. not to get it less than the 30k, unless there was an error.

Russ

Joseph said, "I would never do business with a customer who values price over my reputation. If you think you need to check if I'm ripping you off, we aren't right for each other. You need to do due diligence on me, not my prices." And Sophie had a lot more to say.

My thoughts are: I don't need to see an item by item by item breakdown, but once I've decided on a style/manufacturer of cabinetry (due to my consultant's ability to present the pros and cons of what she or he is presenting, and what is necessary for a kitchen to function in a way useful to me/my family (if any) -- I would like an approximate price breakdown so I can decide, say, that the glass-fronted cabinets are breaking my budget and let's go with solid fronts -- okay, that's an obvious one penned for the sake of example, but some of the other choices within a kitchen are a lot less obvious. It's not because of distrust (usually) -- it's realizing that even though the KD's job is to create the ideal kitchen for the client, a client will sometimes wish/need to budget something slightly less than ideal, and needs to weigh a (hopefully-small) portion of those decisions based on monetary value of some individual components, and what after all, the client may be willing to relinquish or modify. (Decision-making nuances need data, and should not be driven by the KD and just what the KD is willing to release, but by the client -- with KD input, of course. AND, some sort of pricing structure...)

(PS, I did stop reading ALL the posts... I stopped after Sophie's long one, because I just had to get this out of my system...)

I have car buying story which I think relates to this discussion because it shows again, as a consumer, I like to know exactly what I'm paying for. Sorry if that makes me a "control freak", or a difficult customer. But, in order for me to feel comfortable and justified in spending a large chunk of money, that is what I require.

I'm definitely not out looking for the cheapest price of anything I purchase. Cheap is usually cheap for a reason. That is why I like shopping at thrift stores because many times I find very high quality items for a bargain. I mean who doesn't love a bargain? However, I am more then willing to pay for brand new quality merchandise when I feel it is worth it for me. I do not question the set prices. That's their business to charge whatever they feel the market will pay. I do want to know what those set prices are though. Kitchen cabinets and cars are just two examples where I want to see what the cost of the different add on features are so I can see if I am willing to eliminate something. (And I'm not talking about the engine or tires on the car or the screws and glue in the cabinets....Lol)

I agree with Sophie where she said, a serious customer wants quality and value for their money. That describes me and just about every person I know.

Ok, on to the car buying story. Right before signing the contract on a brand new truck, my husband and I were reading over the list of charges. I saw there was one fee for $495 that was listed as something like ADA or TDA. I forget exactly now. I asked the salesman what that acronym stood for. He said he didn't know, but it was a standard fee that they have to charge. I asked him very nicely if he could please ask someone or find out for me. He literally rolled his eyes and acted like I was a "control freak". He gets up in a huff and walks over to the sales managers office. He's in there for about two seconds. He returns and continued to play the hem-hawing game about what it was for. I said again, I am happy to pay for this fee, but I just want to know what it is for. Can you please just go find out for me? At that point I admit maybe I was giving a little stink eye and didn't realize it. He then turns towards my husband and says, "Boy, I would hate to wake up to those eyes in the morning." Seriously! Oh yes he did!

Well, needless to say, we walked. Once we got to our car, I started bawling. I was shaking, I was so upset. I couldn't understand what was so wrong with wanting to know what I was paying that extra $500 for.

My husband told me he was so proud of me and that he wants to wake up looking into my eyes for the rest of his life. Ahhhhh....love that man! I really wanted to write a complaint to the owner of the dealership, but found out afterwards that the owner/manager he was consulting was DADDY. So I figured like father like son. I let it go. But believe me, I told everyone I knew in town not to go to that dealership.

ETA: oh and I also found out later that the fee in question was some bogus advertising fee that is not something they "have" to charge. Jerk! Ok sorry, I feel better now. :-))))

AMEN Rebunky!

He knew and didn't want to tell you. People are FOS and mean. My DH might have punched him in the mouth :)

Btw, it's control enthusiast.

Btw, it's control enthusiast. One of my favorite sayings - I am not bossy, my ideas are better.

I think we all need to remember that the vast majority of consumer participants on GardenWeb and especially the kitchen forum are not the average consumer. They are here to be well informed educated consumers.

Sorry Wendy , but that cabinet is analogous to the wheel, or door . The whole car is the whole kitchen. That one cabinet is only a part of the kitchen like the tire is part of the car .

No snookums they won't. They will tell you the difference in cost, or rather you can figure it out , if that's the only difference between the 2.0 liter gas or the 2.5 liter turbo, or the 1.9 diesel , but you'll never even wiff the basis cost of the standard engine even if you ask.

Just like the so-called ripoff cabinet guys will tell you that upgrading your design from laminate to paint is x$, paint to veneer is xx$ , and cherry veneer to masur birch is xxxxxx$. Option pricing is pretty readily available from everyone. One cabinet in a kitchen isn't really an option though.

funky - lots of construction related businesses have more work than they can handle / deliver right now . The good ones are now charging more to make up for the lean times after the meltdown. I know it's hard for many people to understand but; some businesspeople think not everyone is a good customer and don't even want people who aren't on board with THEIR process. The marketplace is large both in terms of customers and businesses. They want people they can satisfy and make a profit on, so there is someone out there for you and they don't give a rats //&@&/)37 whether you specifically like how they operate. You can find someone you like , and they'll wait for a customer that fits what they do.

I do think the car / kitchen comparison is a bit of a stretch too, but I didn't bring it up . I simply pointed out the fallacy that you can get itemized pricing of the components when purchasing one.

I think too many people have this mentality that the customer is always right and you (the business I'm shopping) should change to make me happy. You have no right to expect that. You have every right to find someone to meet your needs though, but to expect everyone to conform to your view is silly .

I also think that if you like the design, and the price met your budget than that's that. Often it doesn't, and a good designer already has the necessary cuts in had to get there . Sometimes your budget want realistic to begin with and many will bet on the fly that you'll come around once you see the full scope. If you're the type of customer that fudged on your budget numbers because you wanted to hedge really aren't any better than shady cabinet guy in this scenario . I'm sure your reasons are good to you, but so are shady' for not sharing itemized pricing !

Bunky - additional dealer advertising, same as additional dealer profit or markup. It's markup plain and simple. But you still won't be able to find out the cost of the engine or radio on that car. All you know is that abc car is $$$ from this dealer and $$$$ from that one. Little harder to gang with kitchens since it's hard to get exactly the same abc design from two firms, and also difficult to shop the same brand of cabinets in the same town even if you do have a specific plan to shop.

My sugestion for you is to find out what the market price for that car is in your area. Several services offer this. You then fax of email an offer to the dealers in your radius and see who wants your business at that price. None may bite, but at least you're not driving all over and sitting in the closing room waiting on the boss to decide whether he can squeeze you some more. Chances are there's one that has an IT sales guy that's just looking to close deals as fast as he can and makes money on volume and churn, not hardball negotiating of ADM.

Rebunky, I was referring to control-freaky behavior on the part of businesses not wanting to share costs with customers, not customers wanting to have full information so they know what they are spending their hard-earned money on.

My sugestion for you is to find out what the market price for that car is in your area. Several services offer this. You then fax of email an offer to the dealers in your radius and see who wants your business at that price.

Too bad this service isn't available for kitchen and other remodeling projects.

lots of construction related businesses have more work than they can handle / deliver right now . The good ones are now charging more to make up for the lean times after the meltdown.

Then I'd be a consumer who waits for slow times to get my project done. I refuse to pay jacked up prices just because they can get away with price gouging because other people are dumb enough to pay more. Since my area has not had any kind of rebound like other areas must be experiencing, I had not taken that into consideration. Still, while I realize that the price of things are what the market will bear, this all still sounds to me like taking advantage of people.

I know it's hard for many people to understand but; some businesspeople think not everyone is a good customer and don't even want people who aren't on board with THEIR process.

I get this. We have turned clients away for various reasons. Usually it's due to unreasonable expectations when we know it's impossible to promise the results they expect. But then just be honest and say "we're not a good fit".

You're right funky .

But there is no such comparison . Mainly because for every car maker there are over a hundred cabinet manufacturers, and that doesn't even account for Billy's local shop or the builder's " guy" that whips em up on site.

And, lots of people wait. But waiting has costs too. Lots of people got a deal two or three years ago too. Plain ol economics for both parties. Complaining about it or wishing it different isn't practical .

Some customers just don't like being rejected. And while you may find it reasonable to know where every nickel is going some don't. Which is why I referenced the cars. They won't tell you how much indiv. components cost either.

But most kitchen and bath retail/install operations only carry a handful of cabinet lines, not hundreds. And the custom shop or the onsite builder, after doing a few kitchens, should have a pretty good idea of the time a certain type of cabinet will cost and be able to give a general price-range to potential customers. This discussion really helps me understand why places with websites like Ikea and Barker are so popular. It's easy to see what you're paying for.

I'm just really glad I'm not in your target market. I'll keep my handy DH and continue to reuse, repurpose, buy used, and do the work ourselves so we're not just writing checks blindly.

We recently had a bunch of small windows needing replacement in a rental. An older home with many multi-pane windows. DH got a quote for window installation for $2400. He gasped at the price and bought the glass himself for $92. It took him a day to install it all. If it would have taken the installers the same amount of time, that's about $300/hour for labor. Crazy. And chances are they could do it faster since they do it all the time. My dentist and doctor don't even charge that much for an hour of their time.

Perhaps a compromise position is in order. Go back to the shop. Tell them that you are still an interested customer, but you have some questions. Explain to them that you may be making poor decisions. That you need some education in order to understand the bid. There may be areas where you want to spend more or less money in order to get what you want. Arrange to go over the design in more detail and ask for pricing options and explanations as you go over the quote. You don't need to take the itemized list when you are through, but you do need to examine it with their help. You may get the information you need to make you a satisfied customer. Once you are comfortable with the design and quote, you will be able to make an informed decision.

I'm with homechef59. you need enough detail to know what you are buying and to know what might be a big upcharge that you would not do if you knew the price involved. A good KD will tell you whether a particular finish, glass, insert, or extra depth will make a big impact on the cost so that you have a clue. A bad one will not and you will feel like you are being ripped off, even if you are not. a line by line PO is only helpful if it is not in industry code.

deal with a difficult customer

So a customer wanting to understand what they're paying for is difficult? Really, Stan Z? This boggles my mind.

I deleted the post because I figured people would be sensitive and then you snipped a small excerpt. The bottom line is that someone who hasn't signed a contract is asking to take the designer's intellectual work out of the store and likely give it to a competitor while shopping around. As someone who owns a small business I can understand perfectly why I wouldn't spend many hours on something and then have it walk out the door. Once you have signed a contract I'd put as much time as is necessary into it. Going back to the first post in this thread the original poster has not signed a contract to retain the designer. If I were a kitchen designer I would not spend tens of hours with a customer without a contract unless I was desperate for business. Sorry if that's offensive but frankly someone who expects me to do a lot of work without compensation is a difficult customer.

My DH and I own and operate a side-business together and we like to educate our potential clients. It makes for a better working relationship. I owned and operated my own business for about 15 years prior to this and I did similar. I don't expect people to just give me money without understanding what they're getting for it.

It's been awhile since I read the OP but most of this discussion has been about wanting to know prices for certain items in a kitchen design. Like how much a pantry cabinet with roll-outs would be, for example. I can understand not wanting to take the time to price out specifics based on a range of cabinet choices, finishes and trims. But someone in the business for a short while should be able to say "A 36" pantry cabinet with roll-outs generally costs between $x and $x" to give a customer a rough idea of what that item will cost them. I don't think most people hear expect a binding number but, rather, a ballpark guesstimate to help them make decisions.

And, no, I don't think that's too much to ask. Speaking as a business owner and a potential customer.

A 36" pantry with 4 roll outs costs between $1100 and $9800, depending on options and line. That range doesn't help most customers a bit. There are more than 500 variations of options for a ''simple'' pantry in some lines. Starting with the plain Jane recessed panel partial overlay cabinet with a dust strip instead of a butt door, and in a standard oak finish, with 3/8" partial board sides, 84"H, and zero finished sides. All the way to a 3/4" plywood sided, 120"H custom painted inset, with contrasting walnut interior, curved muntin doors with antique lace glass, with an integrated finished inset panel side, integral decorative valance toekick, a relocated rail to match the fridge cabinet's proportions, and 4 layers of crown molding, and custom inserts. Lay people have no idea of how many options actually exist.

Doing 500 variations on a design to see what changing this and that costs IS certainly available from any dealer. For a customer with some skin in the game. Time is money.

Sophie, if someone has presented you with their budget, you would have some idea of what cabinet line, finishes and trims that person would be able to handle in their budget. If their budget is $15k for the cabinetry, you would know that they are not going to go for the $9800 pantry. It would be a no-brainer eliminate that from the guesstimate given. With their cabinet budget number and some rudimentary knowledge of their kitchen layout and how many linear feet of cabinets, it should be pretty easy for a pro to determine what cabinet line will fit in this budget amount and then give them the information they need. Like "In your budget range, most pantries would cost from $1100-$3500 depending on options selected." Is that really so hard?