I suspect man's colonization and habitat destruction has a lot to do with palm's shrinking range... not climate

Of course climate change has been going on since "the dawn of time", as they say. The current big concern is the rate of change and how prepared are we (humans) for the consequences of rapid change. And there's also the question of the adaptability of flora and fauna. Species extinction has been going on ever since species began to differentiate and evolve. Again, it's a question of the speed of extinction that's the cause for concern. But it's not purely a matter of extinction by possible man-made climate change, it's also a question of extinction from man-made habitat change as well as "over harvesting" of desirable species by humans.

So the presence or absence of palms can be down to a number of factors, or combination of factors. If you take the coconut example, although it's originally a tropical species, these days it's growing in many places outside the tropics. Prime example is Florida which isn't in the tropics, and there are many other non-tropical places where it's growing now. Not because of climate change, but because of human intervention. The whole thing is an interplay of various forces none of which individually or solely determine final outcomes.

Well I once saw an article on the sabal minor which has a large range in North Carolina that is believed to be heading north now.

As posted Kevin, there are many other "factors" besides climate change that can affect either the demise or expansion of a particular species. Also, when you use the term "climate change", does this just mean the ambient temp's, rainfall amts, amt of direct unimpeded incoming solar-radiation [insolation] vs cloudy, etc. Or, does climate change entail not only temp changes but also what temps changes and all of their results and other impacts they have?

I have a 100 acre ranch in NE Colorado Cty TX and was involved in an Oak Wilt study w a major University. I learned that coal-fired plants, as far as 200+ miles away from groves of trees could have an impact on them, such that the canopy dies out and the trees and the flora below die-out. This has nothing to do w climate change, rather man-made "development" and other. Could also be that certain domestic animals introduced thrive on consuming palmetto palms thus wiping out their existence.

In essence, there are too any variables or "factors" that need to be considered and examined to determine what could have been a primary or secondary [or combination] to what eliminated or transplanted a certain species....

Well I live in the Daytona/Volusia area.I have 2 royals in my yard.Have been to the old Dent Smith property.There is still a large one growing there.There is a car dealership in NSB by the airport.There are 3 large ones growing there.There are some in Daytona Beach Shores growing.So there is hope is all I have to say.

"Climate Change" is a fallback buzzword invented by the GLOBAL WARMING fanboys to explain contradictory hockey stick temperatures, and the debate is over, BTW, humans did it. Yeah, climate does seem to change; some years are warmer than others.

It's possible that Virginia had glaciers a few thousand years ago? Then palm trees, maybe? Things change, flora and fauna change for natural reasons other than the burning of fossil fuels. (opinion) LB

Oh, yeah, anthropogenic climate change is definitely real. There's no doubt about it. Heat records are being broken far more often and by much wider margins than cold records, and we're seeing more and more record-breaking floods in already-rainy areas and record-breaking droughts in already-dry areas (which is to be expected because hotter air evaporates more water). Also, average temperatures in most of Tennessee have risen a few degrees in the past decade alone (1991-2020 vs. 1981-2010 NOAA climate data); average precipitation risen a few inches equally rapidly, too.

I find it more likely that the destruction of wild palm populations was due to urban sprawl, irresponsible agriculture and rampant fire suppression. (Dwarf and saw palmettos actually thrive in fire-stricken pine savannas.) We've seen this with longleaf pines, too. The construction of reservoirs can't have helped, either; most subtropical North American palms actually thrive in poorly-draining soil, contrary to stereotypes about palms needing well-drained sandy soil. Besides, the wild dwarf palmettos in Cherokee County, AL and Hardin County, TN were seemingly unknown prior to the 21st century and are still little-known; if they could survive the severe volcanic winters in 1783-84 (which caused ice floes off of the Louisiana coast and a frozen Mississippi River in New Orleans) and 1816 (which caused deadly June and August frosts at least as far south as East Tennessee), surely the ones in the Deep South would've been unfazed by a volcanic winter in the Little Ice Age too! My guess as to what happened at Cape Hatteras is maybe a severe Category 5 hurricane snapped or washed away all of the cabbage palmettos (and the land they grew on); it's more hurricane-prone than anywhere other than Florida and parts of the Gulf Coast due to its extremely exposed location right by the Gulf Stream. With the Cuban royal palms in Central Florida, I'd guess that the Little Ice Age did them in (probably same for the Spanish moss in colonial-era Maryland), whereas other palm species were able to adapt to the centuries of a slightly cooler climate; some things are just down to chance.

As for the Brazoria palmettos in Texas, I seriously doubt that those are cabbage palmettos. It's more likely that they're an ancient hybrid between dwarf and cabbage palmettos that migrated westwards. Maybe they could also be a more evolved subspecies of the dwarf palmetto than the Louisiana palmetto is. They're too cold-hardy to be pure cabbage palmettos, and them being a hybrid of the dwarf and Mexican palmettos has been ruled out.

P.S.: There were no glaciers in Virginia in the Quaternary Ice Age as far as I know. The only Quaternary glaciations that I know of in the South were an alpine glacier on Grandfather Mountain in North Carolina and the southern edge of the Laurentide Ice Sheet covering modern-day Louisville, KY. Even the majority of Missouri, parts of Southern Illinois and most of West Virginia and the coastal mid-Atlantic escaped glaciation during every Quaternary glacial period; anywhere that was once covered in alpine glaciers would have cirques, while the LIS destroyed bedrock in old hills and left behind glacial till on top of whatever was left.

I have been told that it is advantageous in not cleaning the recording devices, knowing that they tend to record higher temperatures than a clean instrument.

It has also been pointed out that very many instruments are intentionally located in convenient, but enclosed concrete surrounded locations that magnify higher temperatures. Make no mistake, there is monetary advantage related to grant funds if higher temperatures can be documented, with a thumb on the scale, if necessary. Do not believe that environmentally focused academics can't figure out where the funds come from and a little climate hysteria can shake loose a lot of taxpayer funds. Few people question "hockey stick" data, and done right, can ensure a long career. Man cannot alter climate. It's sun spots, fools!

Of course you couldn't imagine that some of the large corporations that rely on high production of pollution to maintain their profit margins might fund PR campaigns to distort the issue in their favour. Sort of like the tobacco companies that kept funding all that research into disproving there were tobacco related illnesses.

Yes, well, where do I start, addressing a TRUE BELIEVER. When a slick PR campaign can turn every weather phenomena into some sort of proof of what? That sometimes it gets cold, sometimes it rains a lot, and occasionally we see an abnormally warm day, these people claim that just about anything amounts to proof. I know you really want to believe in this nonsense, Richard, but the earth has been cycling between ice ages followed by warming trends for about 4.5 billion years and will continue to do so, while ignoring man's FEEBLE EFFORTS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Liberals find great comfort in being miserable and fretting about DOOMSDAY STUFF. Please know that I do pity you and your irrational beliefs; if it helps, at all?

I’d also like to point out that just because palms fossils were present in alaska it doesn't necessarily mean they grew there (rocks could be moved around from other areas of the earth). Theres also a remote possibility, however unlikely that a palm species grew that far north and was out competed.(almost like a reverse critchfield spruce). Both are unlikely scenarios but shouldnt be ruled out entirely.

Some people have the misconception that palm trees means the tropics. Many palms grow outside the tropics, some even grow where they're in snow for large parts of the year. Years ago someone posted photos of Roystonea palms near Miami with snow on the fronds. Of course there's also the fact that continents move.

"Years ago someone posted photos palms near Miami with snow on the fronds."

Roystonea is quite tropical as a genus, they might be fine with the occasional subarctic cold front and associated snow, but they require a LONG, HOT, mostly tropical, humid environment. South Florida is pretty much their northern limit, but they have been pushed further north in the peninsula in recent years. Still, I doubt they would succeed long term anywhere in California, but maybe I am wrong. Still, I would venture to say, that ALL palms require, at minimal, a "subtropical" climate. This does not imply continuous high heat, the lack of seasonality, the occurrence of snow, or even high heat during the summer maximal peak of temperatures (as in marine climates of the NW or western Europe). Depending on the climatological definition of "subtropical" being used, you might be quite surprised to find how far up the East coast of the US, the subtropics extend, and in Europe or the West Coast, it extends much further north, and YES, both the tropics and the subtropics are expanding north and south in the respective hemispheres despite what the Know Nothings proselytize.

Yes, of course. Warms the cockles of my heart, as well!

Roystonea can be sucessful in california as long as they get regular irrigation https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/44869-royal-palms-in-california/

Also Roystonea as mentioned by others, was native as far north as the lower part of st.johns river prior to 1900s. This is quite a bit further north than the current populations. They are thought to have been wiped out by some exceptionally cold winters combined with habitat loss.