A good friend of mine worked for a fabricator. The owner, a multimillionaire from other businesses, announced that they were going to start carrying several lines of cabinets. My friend begged him not to, as it would undercut their cabinet-selling customers. The owner ignored him.

Several days after the displays were installed, just like my friend predicted, their main customers were calling in to say they would never buy another thing from them as long as they were now competitors. The displays came down within hours. Really a bone-headed idea for such a smart guy.

Any slab yard owner who sells directly to consumers is competing with his customers. It is the kiss of death, as it should be.

I don't think anyone here is asking to buy directly from the slab yard. What we are asking for is the ability to make an informed decision.

I live in a rural area. I contacted one fabrication shop who told me I would get better pricing if I went through a pro, as opposed to retail. I had already paid one of their suggested pros, a KD, for an hourly cabinet design review, so I contacted her, gave her the name of the granite type and asked for an estimate. It came back, for a level 2 granite (lets's call it MN Twin Cities region as that's the closest large metro) at $90 sq/ foot, two straight runs bordered by walls on one end, no special edges, undermount sink, slide in range. When we went to the yard to view the slab, the worker asked me if the estimate was, "what like $70 sq/ft?". When I told him, he looked surprised, then told me Level 2 stones had "a range", praised the fabricator, told me any other estimates would probably be the same (i.e. don't bother). We picked out another (also Level 2 slab) for an estimate and are waiting. My slab yard stayed loyal to its customer, the fabricator, which I understand. But since I don't even know whether $70, much less $90, is a "special price" just for me because I'm gullible, I guess I need to get more estimates?

BTW, I did ask the KD for some type of pricing guidance but she just told me every yard is different, each stone is unique, etc.

Places like Arizona Tile will sell wholesale and retail. This allows the consumer to get a "worse case scenario" retail price of a slab to compare to an overall price from a fabricator.

We were fortunate in that our contractor is someone we know and he allowed us to look and price. We were able to pick and pay for our slabs (wholesale) and then had the fabricator pick them up and do the work. We even had the selected fabricator meet us there to make sure the slab sizes would work for what we needed done.

Sounds like ours was/is a rare arrangement.

The slab we want is at Arizona Tile, and they said they would not give us the price nor sell the slab directly to us. It must go to a fabricator. They would not give any estimate of shipping cost, nor time table. All of that would have to go through the fabricator. Unless my fabricator is paying for the rock and giving to me free, then I am the buyer, and the customer, no matter what anyone in the industry thinks. This is a pretty cozy deal within the industry. I thought I would go to a yard, get a price for the rock and a cost for shipping, then it would be shipped to my fabricator, and he would have already given me a price for fabrication and installation. I know one of my possible fabricators and I assume the other possible fabricator is an honest man, but the way this is set up I will be dealing and dickering with both of them for the best possible price. Just like buying any high ticket item less the 600 mile three day trip to pick out rock. I know when it is all done I will forget all this weirdness. Not that it matters but I would have preferred a price on the slab that I would pay, and a kick back or a fabricators finders fee paid back to my fabricator, even if the price marked is an illusion, it is still a target that I know. This system does not allow women, (and to be honest this is mostly women driven) and their significant other to say we really like slab X but slab B is $1000.00 cheaper, lets go with slab B. It would all be different if I lived in a metro area were all the fabricators were close to the slab yards. Shipping the rock 300 miles further complicates matter.

So they would not give you a retail per sq ft cost of the slab? I could understand not entertaining any questions related to shipping costs as they will require you or your fabricator to line all of that up.

I can say my experience with them was completely the opposite. We went in and looked at slabs, marked the ones we were interested in and then they priced all of them for us. This was all done prior to our contractor even having an account set up with them (we didn't purchase our slabs from them but we did end up ordering our backsplash tile from them).

Not at Arizona. One of my fabricators had an account the other did not. They will only price to one fabricator at a time. After get my 7 days of hold I must then release "my" slab to another fabricator for him to be able to price it to me. If I decide to go with the first fabricator I must again call and get the slabs released to the first fabricator. It is coming together but not a user friendly sort of a system.

If "you're not their customer" is unclear, let me put it another way; "Your not there customer". You don't have an account, and this goes for any wholesale jobber house, you are not getting pricing info.

You are only the end user.

Casey

Never mind. If it is Braziliano they don't appear to have it at the Arizona Tile nearest me.

I guess I just don't buy the logic that the fabricator is the customer.
I don't buy that the yards allowing homeowners to look at slabs is a
service.

You don't have to buy or even like it, that's simply the way it is. Just like I have to pay the airlines an additional fee to bring along my sock and shirts in a suitcase. Would you prefer it to be like TKP says and you can only look at samples at the fabricator or kitchen place ??? Since you are not writing a check to the wholesale slab yard - you are not their customer anymore than you are the fish wholesalers' customer when you order sushi. Again we don't have to like it or agree, but it's reality.

Joe , are you a customer of TI because they supply the radio , NAV system , engine management or Johnson Controls because they make the seats in your car ??? The slab yards are like these companies, only they allow you to peak behind the curtain because they think it suits them. I'd prefer to spec out the control layout and electronic operation on my cars, but it's not offered, and no amount of complaining is going to change that.

Wendy - I think your real issue was with that particular fabricator not the wholesaler and you should shop around. Don't think anyone is begrudging you that , simply saying you need to shop at the correct place. That's not the slab yard. Browse all you want there - but it's not where you can shop. Your information has to come from the guy buying the material.

barncatz - sound like you also have a fabricator issue. You'd prob. do well to shop around too.

No one seems surprised, upset, dismayed, or flummoxed that there is an enormous range of cabinet pricing for something as simple as a 24" wide three drawer base. Why the apprehension over stone counters ? No one seems to want to debate that those BLUM drawer slides in said cabinet cost $30 at rockler, $25 on amazon, or that we'll have no idea how much MasterBrands pays for theirs that they buy by the trainloads. Or, that my husband could build that cabinet in the garage for 18 cents on the dollar. Why does DIYing granite tops ever come up ??? One only needs a $100 wetsaw, $59 grinder, and a $125 set of diamond polishing pads and all those scamster stone fabricators will have to cry uncle.

My point is (as I've said before ) our economy is riddled with hidden pricing, markups, profit, crappy consumer practices , ect... that we just accept everyday and get on with life. There is wholesale / retail obfuscation all around us everyday that we
don't think twice about - it's what allows most of us to have jobs.

Nightowl finds it silly that every month a huge amount $$$ goes to banks, utility companies, and your retirement plan administrator in fees and you just accept it and move on. It's all those little cuts that bleed you dry and you don't even feel it owl ! You know the frog will jump right out of the boiling water , but will get cooked alive if you start it at room temp and bring it up to a boil.

"Nightowl finds it silly that every month a huge amount $$$ goes to banks, utility companies, and your retirement plan administrator in fees and you just accept it and move on" Ummm, no I don't.

I find it silly to compare a one time 5-10K purchase with limited ability to compare and make an informed purchase decision to some fees that I can see written on an agreement document before I sign up and can generally easily remove myself from the agreement with little financial loss. Not that I agree, but bank fees, utility fees and the like are generally covered by consumer protection laws as well. We use the lowest cost brokerage and my retirement fee administration is among the lowest one can find.

Neu2you

I understand that is "just the way it is", and I do understand that I am whining a lot, but with every post that someone made, I have learned a bit more. Some of how you see it and some of how I see it we will just have to agree to disagree. The end result of how this gets done with secret pricing, and trying to figure out who is the customer might make little difference in price in the long run. It just could have a better feel. And it could be easier, if I lived in a metro area, if I had unlimited funds, and if we were less picky. None of those are true and you know I will deal with it just like I deal with airlines that charge extra for bags, (although I fly Southwestern whenever possible). Also none of these procedures are universal. I do appreciate all the posts. I have learned a lot, although I am not sure if it makes me feel much better. Must be the New Yorker in me. I feel like someone is pulling a fast one, so I will just have to deal with my own neurosis about being potentially taken advantage of. In the long run I will bite the bullet and get what we want.

Contractors are the customers of slab yards. That is the bottom line. They are the ones buying day in day out. We the consumers are the customer of the fabricator.

A very few yards may sell retail to a consumer at highly inflated price. As I understand it:. Importers sell at 40% markup to wholesalers (yards). Those yards add a markup of about 40-80% to that price to the contractor and the contractor add a markup of about 10-20% to his customers. This market is dependent on contractor/designer.

These are rough numbers based on my research here in Southern CA. I was only able to find this out after a lot of footwork. Everybody hides their pricing here but we have a few yards that sells retail so I extrapolated back based on comparing multiple yards and interviewing people.

Those contractors that can buy directly from an importer has a larger margin to work with.

Arizona Tile in our area doesn't even allow the consumer to visit their showroom or yard unless they have a pass or accompanied by their contractor. Their pricing is only disclosed to the contractor.

It's not a collusion but how industries work on a wholesale basis. The Internet and instant pricing has conditioned us to get more apparent pricing. The fabricators have not caught up with the times.

Nightowl - you must be a better customer than I if you're able to remove fees from your utility co's and banks and brokerages.

Yes, they are pretty much out front , but you have no choice about the them other than to not do business with a particular firm. And they all have the same ones you know ? And that the government blesses and supposedly regulates them makes it all better ??? How did that work out for you pre 08 with the mortgage industry ?

Kinda like Joe's situation: he can get a price from a fabricator and chose to accept it or not , negotiate it or not. The
price for the material will be pretty much the same regardless of who he uses to craft it into something useable. Joe has to decide whether the added value from the fabricator is worth the price being charged. That's the big picture and is no different than the decision about whether your orthopedist does good setting work, a landscaper cuts grass well, or the baker makes good bread and pies.

Worrying about whether the orthopod uses plaster or fiberglass from pfizer or merck, the lawn boy has a honda or john deer, or the baker uses white lilly or Mike the Miller's flour and how much YOU could buy those material for is something 99.9% of people just don't do. I bet none of you has even thought twice about the raw materials that go into those products or services.

beachem - some fabricators have caught up with the times. You can order some countertops over the internet or pone and have them delivered.

Species are limited, you can't have that kohler stages sink cutout , and you'll have to muscle the thing off the semi ( hope you thought to request and pay for a liftgate ) and install it on your cabinets. And what happens when you didn't notice that your walls were a bit out of parallel ? Are you going to grind an polish the edge to fit ? In other words : reduced to a commodity.

As long as this is craft and custom order that requires knowledge/skill and lots of muscle and logistics that carry risk - prices will be high and carry a premium over a cash and carry item.

Why does everyone want granite anyway ???? Laminate was great for decades , is affordable, available in mega cities and podunk hollows, and is even easy for the DIY crowd to use if they want to save some money.

"Nightowl - you must be a better customer than I if you're able to remove fees from your utility co's and banks and brokerages." Um...no again. I understand cherry picking to try to make a point that is difficult to make, but please don't do that with my words. Thanks.

Posted again with some CAPITALS added for reading comprehension

I find it silly to compare a one time 5-10K purchase with limited ability to compare and MAKE AN INFORMED PURCHASE DECISION TO SOME FEES that I can see written on an agreement document before I sign up and can generally easily remove myself from the agreement with little financial loss. Not that I agree, but BANK FEES, UTILITY FEES, and the like are generally COVERED BY CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS AS WELL. We use the LOWEST COST brokerage and my retirement fee administration is AMONG THE LOWEST one can find.

Added - We regularly change banks and brokerages when we determine they are charging more than another the offers what we need.

@neu2 I think Joe was worried about a situation like Wendy's where one fabricator charges more markup for granite than another for quartzite.

If she didn't know the levels of the stones from the yard, she would have hugely overpaid and left in the dark.

"If she didn't know the levels of the stones from the yard, she would have hugely overpaid and left in the dark." Exactly. And, why those of us non-sheep types pay attention, ask questions, and comparison shop for the "hide the ball" purchases like counters and cabinets.

neu2you, thanks for the callout, I appreciate it.

beachem

@neu2 I think Joe was worried about a situation like Wendy's where one fabricator charges more markup for granite than another for quartzite.

The first estimate I received from fabricator #1 was for level 5 quartzite at $93 a square foot. The second estimate I received was also from fabricator #1 for level 3 marble at $145 a square foot. I questioned this and was told that the prices had gone up due to demand. I received a third estimate from fabricator #2 for the level 3 marble (same slabs, same template) at $100 a square foot.

As you can see, the prices obviously went up and I am fine with that. My bad for not locking in earlier. What I am not okay with is being taken advantage of. And, I'll be honest, I do not limit that to counters. There are other aspects of the whole kitchen remodel thing that seem very questionable. Things seemed to become less negotiable and more expensive as some of my other choices were revealed.

Wow -- "There is wholesale / retail obfuscation all around us everyday that we don't think twice about - it's what allows most of us to have jobs."

I don't know about you but my job isn't based on confusing people and/or clouding facts to make money... And, sadly if it were, I certainly wouldn't brag about it.

There are other aspects of the whole kitchen remodel thing that seem very questionable. Things seemed to become less negotiable and more expensive as some of my other choices were revealed.

********

This is how I felt when we began our kitchen redo with a kitchen and bath company. Once we pulled out of working with them, and hired another KD and contractor, things were much more transparent...and enjoyable.

Joe, I'm just curious to know if you visited Contempo Tile's slab yard during your trip down here? I live just south of Salt Lake now, though I lived in Salt Lake City for 15 years. Our slab came from Contempo and when we visited the yard all the slabs were clearly marked with retail price per square foot. We actually had to put the deposit on our credit card to hold the slab because another contractor wanted it and we didn't have a fabricator chosen at that point. Once we did, though they changed the invoice to their name and they purchased the slab after the fabricated price was agreed upon. It was really simple. I have no idea what the fabricator paid for the slab, but the fabricated price was fair as far as we were concerned.

I've bought tile from Arizona Tile several times, and the service and product were fine, but it's a big chain operation and I felt like we got better service from Contempo. I'm fairly sure our fabricator wouldn't travel to WY from Utah County, or else I'd recommend them to you. They did a nice job.

scoutfinch 72

Went to Contempo and it was as you described, all prices clearly marked. Had a wonderful sales associate, named Derrick , just didn't find what my wife really wanted. Still could end up with stone from there depending upon what happens with Arizona.

And what industry is that owl ?

Wendy, you'd have seen the same red flag comparing apples to apples with two different fabricators without knowing the material cost .

Whether their difference of price was due to material cost, material markup, general overhead, excessive or low profit margin, a mistake, or just plain old greed - you'd have have two different prices and a place to start a conversation or find a different source. Knowing the raw material cost might be helpful, but it doesn't really hurt you not knowing.

As with any custom produced undertaking, the buyers' leverage is always reduced when compared with an off the rack solution. It's simple economics.

nue2you, I don't know why you are responding to me. I couldn't have cared less what the slab cost retail. I already had a reference point from the first quote. The hubby asked out of curiosity. And, the price he was told was higher than wholesale, I figured that out just from the quotes we received. You might consider going back and rereading this thread.

I think that a custom product increases the buyers leverage. I can specify what I need and get exactly it. An off the rack solution provides the customer the least levaerage as it requires the customer to sign an adhesion contract. Off the rack is always take it or leave it. However, the custom work is usually more expensive than an off the rack option.

The flexibility is why I have worked with a custom carpenter for most of my furniture. I tell him what I want, we work together to find the materials, and he builds it. I definitely pay more compared to stores like West Elm, but I get exactly what I need and the quality is always superior to what West Elm is offering. At the same time, the stuff my carpenter creates is always less than Restoration Harware. I don't mean to pick on West Elm or Restoration Harware, they are just examples.

I love these types of threads. We have, in a single thread, countertop fabricators (or those defending fabricators' pricing practices) admitting to collusion with and thinly veiled threats towards slab owners to ensure actual costs are hidden, and (HA) someone actually bragging fabricator incomes are accredited to obfuscation. It gives me faith the smoke and mirrors practices will sooner, rather than later, be history as people get the information they need to make informed decisions. Thanks again to GardenWeb communication.

Owl, you should probably look up the definition of collusion, because that's not happening with the stone distributors. The industry may follow a trend and its even natural for pricing yo be pretty close in a given city through regular actions.

All of the top shelf law accounting firms in town have roughly the same hourly rates for partners/associates time, the gas stations have pretty much the same cost for a gallon , the major airlines the price for a ticket , and Kroger's eggs cost roughly the same as Publix's and UPS charges pretty much what FedEx does to deliver packages. Are all of those colluding on pricing those goods and services ? Nope.

The stone counter industry may not be all consumer warm and fuzzy , but I don't see them as out to swindle the public. And they seem to be as consumer pricing oriented as the health care industry seems to me .

Owl, how much does you broker/ financial advisor make? Does he make money when he does a crappy job and you lose money ? But, that's ok because he disclosed that he's going screw you on page 39 of the perspectus ?

Lots of people's incomes are tied up in obfuscation. Many sales jobs have that built in as few are straight commission, and those don't foster long term positions. Many won't even tell you what their commission is even if you're brazen enough to ask.

What about your insurance adjuster? Think she has a vested interested getting you the most money for your claim ? Does she make a commission / bonus on performance ? Think that's judged on writing out big checks to you and other policy holders ? And how much does it REALLY cost to underwrite your coverage ?

Land where were these threats to slab owners owl ?

Here ya go.....

You can bet that the wholesale yard will end up losing business over this too, as they dumped on their business partners for the sake of a short term gain. Word gets around when you do that.

Like I said, read the thread.

I will read through this thread later, just skimmed for now. I am at least happy to see the communication being allowed to happen. No mysterious disappearing threads this time. Winks to nightowl!

The cost of the plants from the wholesale nursery is not disclosed to the customer of the landscape designer's client, even if they are allowed through the doors to pick a specimen plant. They will not sell to you directly either.

The cost of the hair dye to a stylist isn't subject to scrutiny by his customer. Only the quality of the end results and the end user price. If you want to get your hair dyed at the priciest salon in town, you don't go shopping at the wholesale supply house for the exact dye that you want, in order to find it cheaper. You aren't even allowed to buy there. It is wholesale, and the cost of wholesale has very little bearing on the end retail price of the job. If you shop by price instead of skill, you are likely to end up wearing a fright wig of a job until you can afford to go to someone who can fix that mistake.

The fact that the granite fabrication industry is one of the very few that allows their customers to view wholesale raw materials does not mean that those customers of the fabricator are customers of the slab wholesaler. They are a third party to that business transaction.

The fact remains that it is the fabricator who is the customer of the wholesaler. Any information that they wish to remain between them as proprietary business information should not be shared with a third party as a matter of business ethics.

Any supply house, or contractor, or any other trade partner, that discusses anyone's private business information freely will not remain in business long. If a plumbing supply house reveals that Contractor A is extending his credit a bit far to one of his customers that he sent there, and thus Customer Z's price will be higher, that is an actionable breach of that private and confidential business information. It is the equivalent of your tax preparer sharing how much you give to charity and what your wife's W-2's were last year. Actionable breach. It is the same as your doctor shouting across the waiting room that your test for HIV was negative. Actionable breach.

Wholesale transactions are private, between 2 parties only. Not 3. If the contractor end purchaser wishes to share the pricing information of one of the products purchased from Wholesaler B, then that is his choice to do so. But for Wholesaler B to do that without the contractor's permission, that is not acceptable. It will result in fewer contractors wishing to do business with a company that cannot remain professional, and keep confidential information confidential.

Plants - I can easily get an idea about the supplies cost of what I want and then decide if the associated service offered is what I am comfortable paying .

Dye - See plants.

Plumbing - See plants

Well said LWO.

Or put another way, you as the end user are the customer of the fabricator, not the stone yard.

Owl , you can get an idea of of material price for countertops too, just not every material from every source.

So those specific plants , dye ect....at the wholesalers are like the specific stone you are asking about.

Face it , you're not going to get what you want despite your protests, so you'll just need to grin and bear it if you want custom stone counters.

Wendy - that only illustrated my point. The veiled threat there was from the stone owners to their customers who hadn't bought anything at that point. Not to the stone owner.

People that want stone tops will just have to deal with the reality of how the game is setup. They don't have to like it and are free to complain , but expecting change is pretty naive.

Maybe y'all can start liking Corian that has price maintenance systems and limited distribution. Good luck finding pricing on s sheet of that.

Lets face it , all the complainers just want the material price to use as a bargaining chip to whittle price concessions. If it wrre simply about comparison ; the INSTALLED price from three fabricators for the same EXACT thing along with a viewing of their work would give one enough info with which to make an informed decision .

Nothing wrong with bargaining chips , but call it what it is. And don't get bent outa shape because the person on the other side uses any and all chips available to them in the process. Which is what's going on in this case.

If you guys are so miffed , why not vote your wallets and chose another type of counter ?

neu2you

What you are saying is that we must rely on the good business practices of the fabricator. I understand that but it is still a bit like wanting to build a deck with either pressure treated wood, or IPE wood, or trex and not knowing the price of the raw material. I don't have a problem with the fabricator getting a potential discount as they function as a pipeline for business to the slab yard. Furthermore I can guess that plain old pink generic granite like you see in Holiday Inn rooms is cheaper than highly veined gold whatever. I just would like to know how much. Is it really necessary to be such a secretive process. I own a retail store. We work on either a margin of 50% or 40%. If there is a chance for for the margin to be a few points higher, usually by paying for our order within 10 days, we take advantage of that.If anyone ever asks I tell them that. When they complain as they sometimes do I explain retail to them. I pay for the building, the heat, the lights, the AC, the staff, their benefits, etc. All part of the cost of doing business. If I charge much less I will not be in business. It is really not a big secret. High end counter tops are, and the slab is a large part of the total bill.

In spite of all this I should have a price from my fabricator within a few days. Hopefully the slab yard will still be holding my slabs. This has been an interesting discussion, with a lot more people interested than I thought there would be. Now if I can find out is Braziliano Green is really a granite or a quartzite I will be happy enough.

I'm pretty open about our margins too. Rarely as a consumer have I run into a retailer willing to share their margin, like never. Mine run between 33 and 35%, with a low of 30 for some contractors. For cabinets the price is only based on the cost of goods, zero allowance for all the revision, measure, samples...for counters we get a trade discount so the margin runs 10-15% (barely worth the time).

I have no idea what fabricators margins are. I do know that in the last 8 or 9 years granite is one of the few things for which prices have dropped (considerably while engineered stone hasn't ), that a number of fabricators closed, and that almost every one of those open have had lay offs.

My margin on stone counters averages between 12-15%. There isn't enough there to make it worth the hassle, but you can't be "full service" without doing tops. Certainly not enough to be worth the angst that this thread has generated among people who think that is too much to pay for the service. Many many fabricators are "two year wonders" and find out that they aren't making enough money to not be on food stamps.

Wendy, wouldn't you have noticed the fabricator you didn't go with was higher than the one you did go with whether you knew the price of the slabs or not ???

Maybe the the price increase was intentional. Some contractors do price high or raise their prices in certain markets or for certain customers to offset the risk and time suck they anticipate .

Some people just don't like the confrontation that comes with saying : " I don't really want to work with you because I think you're going to be a pain in the rear and cost me money ".

High or outrageous estimates are just part of the landscape like free estimates to customers that take 4 hours of one's time and don't call to say they've gone with someone else, or decided to do nothing.

The notion that the customer is the most important component or is king / always right is a bit antiquated. They are simply one part of the relationship.

I would like to buy granite counters the way it is done in some parts of the country: price of the slab is given to the customer by the stone yard and purchasrd; then price of fabrication and installation is estimated by the fabricator which includes transport of slab from granite supplier to fabricator. That is not the way it is done in my part of the Mid-West. The total price may very well be the same either way, but it is a more transparent process to separate out the slab price from the fabrication price.

In my case, I didn't choose a fabricator. My gc did. I'm sure if I had insisted, I could have gone elsewhere, but I trust my gc so I accepted his fabricator. The cost of fabrication, regardless of the stone I chose, was included in the overall contract with my gc.

When I shopped slabs, I had a maximum price that was included in my contract. As long as I stayed under that price, my gc would buy the stone and take care of everything from there. So I needed to know price for the material. Fortunately in my area it was not difficult to find stone yard who gave price, in fact I think we visited four or five and they all gave us per square foot prices for any slab we asked about.

It seems like there is substantial variation in how this kind of transaction is conducted between geographic areas.

This has been fascinating to read and makes me really glad I'm not a fan of stone. :)

@neu2you - If the cost of baggage is that big of an issue for you, learn to pack light. I have traveled for 4 weeks, visiting variable climates with different clothing needs, with a single bag smaller than carry-on allowances. Zero baggage fees for me and I'm glad I don't have to pay for your bags in my ticket.

Curious, neu2you, what are some things about a homeowner or a job that clue you in that they will be a "pain in the rear" or a "time suck"?

Customers asking for discounts immediately go on double secret probation with me as well as revealing employment in law or engineering. Blabbing about the problems you've had with other contractors can send me running; on the other hand the previously-spanked can be some of the best.

That's funny Joseph! I never tell anyone I engage for services that I'm a lawyer because they usually react negatively. A landlord once refused to rent me apartment when she learned that I was a lawyer because she thought I would move in and use my legal magic to steal her property.

I'm also a lawyer and never ask for a discount because I don't want anyone asking ME for one! I either like the price/service/quality combo or I don't.

Add me to the don't ask for one club. That is why I want to understand the pricing and options before jumping in. I don't want to waste anyone's time. In my last 2 kitchen renos, I did well enough. The granite thing fries my ham though. I thought I was going to have to start CPR on my neighbor who recently came over to see the new kitchen and asked me what we paid. Poor thing! It just isn't right.

I just sent a template in for estimates. The last estimate, I sent an email with template attached and had an estimate within 20 mins.

You want an estimate, make your own diagram and carry it to the fabricator. You are wasting everyone's time to have them come out to the house as a first course of action. It's not that safe either, to let some of them into the home.

Besides, you want to visit his fabrication shop. That low priced guy who doesn't want you visiting his shop may just not have one. He may be a felon hack with a garden hose and angle grinders in a shed in the back yard. Not even kidding. Seen it too many times. A third of the stone industry is the worst sort of hack, and employs the same. The other third is adequate. The top third are MIA members, and take pride in quality work.

You visit the shop with your diagrams and measurements and look at the machinery and work being done there. Look at the examples of edging choices they have in the office area. The reveals around the sinks that they show. You just learned if you would even let them in your house. It ain't about the price, work unseen. If it is, then you probably WILL get that felon with the garden hose and angle grinders in the shed.

We did get our estimates from the two available fabricators. Approx a $2000 difference. Same stone but one we saw in person the other is an online picture. To see it is person would be a 700 mile round trip plus hotel etc.