Thank you for those HEALTHY bushes, zero disease foliage !! I agree with you on the 1st one: Dorris Tysterman since it's 4.5" bloom, a bit larger than Whiskey Mac, plus the color is more toward orange with more frilly petals.

On the second one, it's still Fragrant Cloud, but own-root with wimpy root, the blooms are smaller & less petals, plus the leaves are smaller. I grow both GRAFTED Heirloom rose vs. own-root, and the GRAFTED have bigger bloom & deeper color and BIGGER leaves than the own-root. A vigorous root-system like grafted can pick up nutrients better, thus deeper-color-bloom, plus bigger leaves & more petals & bigger bloom.

For example, the rose-park has Jude the Obscure GRAFTED on Dr. Huey. The bloom is huge, so many petals with geometric circle (prettier than Golden Celebration) ... but my own-root Jude gives faded, fewer petals, smaller bloom ... blah !!

Thanks for the confirmation about Dorris Tysterman, Straw. I feel strange actually that whole 2015 the Whisky Mac which my friends have been praising around the globe is actually not Whisky Mac. I don't have Whisky Mac in fact. Wow.... what a feeling but at least I know the truth now.

Regarding Fragrant Cloud, I would say it's quite a healthy own root bush. If you see the last photo and the right most cane in it which is the tallest, thickest and not even fully visible in the photo due to it's height is actually a sucker.

This photo is of 30th Jan 2016, the day this bush was pruned. There are four main canes coming out of the ground, three on the left are close and than there is one on the right, a little far. If you see just on the right of that cane, you can see a red coloured sucker sprouting out of the ground. The right most cane in the last photo of above post is this sucker which has grown that big. It is the tallest cane in the bush at the moment and is almost as thick as the other 2 years old canes. Roots that can send out such a viogorous sucker have to be well established strong roots in my view.

But my main observation is on the bloom shade (which is constantly orange red / vermilion instead of coral red) and the shape of leaves. The blooms last year were quite big as you can see in most photos.

I think we can see this rose for more time. Its about to bloom in next week or so. We will know better when it blooms.

Thanks for the help again, Straw.

BTW, the mystery red rose that we have named Condesa de Sastago, I counted the petals on three different bushes. One mine and two with my friends who also don't know the correct name as the source nursery is same and the nursery guy called it Fashion. The petal count on three different full size blooms on three different bushes was 22, 24 on friends bushes and 27 & 29 (two blooms) on my bush. My bush is the healthiest of all. So the average comes to 25 from four blooms on three bushes which is far less than the average petal count of Condesa de Sastago (which is 50-55) but is exactly equal to the average petal count of Talisman. But shade of Talisman is more towards yellow and it is known to have strong fragrance. This rose is like 3/10 to 5/10 on two bushes (mine and friend's bush) but the third bush has more fragrant blooms and my friend rates it like 7/10 (strong). There could be a difference in fragrance due to weather (too much rain etc) & soil but the difference in petal count shouldn't be that much. Other than petal count, it looks to be a Condesa de Sastago to me on all other aspects and NOT Talisman. Here is the photo taken today...

Khalid: you are right about Fragrant Cloud healthier as own-root, my experience is the same: own-root Pink peace had less B.S. (blackspot) than my current Pink Peace (grafted on Dr. Huey).

Condesa de Sastago is darker-pink, and I agree with you. How many petals have to do with how much fertilizer used. The rose park's Jude the Obscure has WAY MORE PETALS than what's listed in HMF, since they really over-dose on the fertilizer (high phosphorus), plus we had tons of rain that year. The shorter & thicker the stem is, the bigger the bloom, that's the advantage of pruning: you get bigger blooms & more petals. I used to prune apples as a teenager, the nursery paid us kids to prune green tiny apples, instead of 4 apples per branch, we take out 3, and leave one, so that fruit gets bigger.

High phosphorus fertilizer makes it one bloom per stem, resulting in more petals & bigger blooms. High potassium tend to result in cluster-bloom: more blooms per branch, and less petals. Soil low in phosphorus tend to have skinnier stems, thus smaller blooms & less petals. In summer I use high pH tap water near 9, and that HALVED the petal-counts: calcium hydroxide is unstable and binds with phosphorus.

Plants in fluffy & loamy soil like your river-canal-soil are more efficient in getting phosphorus, thus bigger & more petals. Plants in compact, heavy clay like mine tend to have skinny stems, less phosphorus with compact clay. I learn this from U. of Hawaii Extension on phosphorus uptake (more efficient in sandy soil).

Thanks for loads of useful info Straw. Learn something new everyday.

So.... I think it is Condesa de Sastago, despite less petal count. I would go for that and would call this rose Condesa de Sastago from here onwards.

And what about the orange red rose. Are you convinced it is Fragrant Cloud?

best regards

Yes, I'm convinced it's Fragrant Cloud, due to its gaudy color. Also the fragrance CHANGES with soil chemistry. Bolero and ALL roses smell best at the rose park (high-phosphorus fertilizer enhance the scent). But Bolero got weird scent in my garden with horse manure ... and last year I used pea-gravel instead, which IMPROVED its scent, but it can never smell like elegant French perfume like the rose park .. they have fluffier & loamier soil than my compact alkaline clay.

Fluffier soil improves phosphorus uptake, which improve the scent.

Great..... and thanks a lot Straw. As always, you have been most helpful.

Straw: Here the pics of the rose that I posted in my other thread as Fragrant Plum. You mentioned earlier that it is too dark as compared to the photos in HMF. I had the same observation and I mentioned it that I haven't seen a Fragrant Plum so dark but it was sold to me as Fragrant Plum by a fairly well reputed nursery.

Here are few photos that I took today....

These photos were taken in the morning. Fragrance is strong damask.

These photos were taken in the evening.

This is not Fragrant Plum for sure. Shade of bloom is different and shape of leaves is absolutely. Have a look at this photo from HMF Fragrant Plum

To me it looks more like Mirandy... here is your photo of Mirandy posted on HMF Mirandy

Another guess is Crimson Glory Climber.... I have Crimson Glory Climber and it's blooms are deep crimson / scarlet. Leaves are similar looking but leaves of Mirandy exactly look same as leaves in last photo. Here is a photo of Crimson Glory from HMF Crimson Glory

My inclination is towards Mirandy. One reason of naming Crimson Glory and Mirandy is that both of them are available on this nursery from which I purchased this and I was just looking at the possibility of changed tags.

What do you say?

Straw: Here are two latest pics of the rose sold to me as Fragrant Plum....

Now I am certain it is not Fragrant Plum. I am also quite convinced that it is not Crimson Glory even as CG has an average petal count of 30 whereas this rose has a petal count of 70. Please see the bloom.

With such heavy petal count, this is not Crimson Glory for sure.... doesn't look like Mirandy even but I am not sure.

I will post more photos of this rose when it blooms....

best regards

Khalid: I grew Mirandy for years then I killed it since it was VERY THORNY, it has HUGE REDDISH THORNS. The scent is fruity awesome, better smelling than Crimson Glory, and Oklahoma. Below is a pic. of Mirandy which I posted in HMF:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.235362

My Mirandy has DARKER red-bloom color. The pics you posted is more pink, and Crimson Glory is pure-red. I don't know the true-name of the pics. you post, but I'm sure it's NOT Fragrant Plum (more purple). Maybe Jess, Sam, or Carol can help.

Straw: Thanks for your comments and you are right. This is not Fragrant Plum for sure and this doesn't even look like Crimson Glory as well as Mirandy. Crimson Glory has an average petal count of 30 and has large size petals. Mirandy has an average petal count of 35-45 with large size petals. This one has a petals count of around 70 and has so many small size petals in the center with large outer petals.... typical of a David Austin or English roses. Bloom is large... around 4.25 inches.

Whatever it is.... we will find out soon. But it's a lovely rose to have, such intense damask fragrance, nice shade and large size beautiful blooms. I am happy to have this rose...

Khalid: Your pinkish-red rose with 70+ petal is Austin rose Tess of the D'Ubervilles. You are right that it's an Austin rose. I recognize it by the small leaves ... I had seen Tess in real-life, quite thorny, but the thorns are small. It will get more petals as the bush mature. See below link:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.18153

Straw: Thanks for info on Tess of the D'Urbervilles. It seems to have very different leaves. Blooms are also more typical old rose kind but mine is something in-between. It opened up more like a hybrid tea. But we can see a few more blooms and we would know. Thanks for the help.

BTW, here are few recent photos of my Fragrant Cloud. Do you think these buds and half open blooms have a coral red shade. It looks more of a vermilion orange to me.

Fragrance is strong and sweet, a bit of citrus too but not pure citrus. What do you say?

best regards

The color change is from different soil chemistry .. it's still Fragrant cloud to me. If I see one this year at local store, I'll buy it to compare with yours.

Actually the colour has always been like this most of the time, if I correctly recall. Even in my friend's house from where I brought this own root, it had the same vermilion colour and not coral red per se. But we can see it more and I will keep posting the pics.

Thanks for the time Straw

Carol: Posting a photo of your fragrant cloud was a big help. It actually looks quite similar to mine in shade. Do you have any old photo that show the foliage closeup? That will really help.

hmm..... Dark Desire. Just studied it at HMF and I would do anything to have that rose. It's wonderful but it looks my rose is not Dark Desire (unfortunately). Dark Desire is a burgundy cum violet that turns to violet red. Mine is a shade of deep to bright crimson. It actually looks quite similar to Crimson Glory when the bloom is opening up initially. Leaves are also quite similar looking and its' not easy to differentiate. However, when the blooms fully opens up, Crimson Glory has a low petal count (25-30) whereas this rose has a high petal count (over 50). Than the inner petals of Crimson Glory are large whereas this rose has many small size petals, arranged in somewhat old rose style pattern (but not a cup shaped old rose). Fragrance is almost identical, ie, a damask spicy kind and is strong....actually quite strong. It's a very pleasant fragrance which is different being a man, I may like to have a perfume in that fragrance (it's more of a men's fragrance and not really like a typical feminine kind).

I think we need to see this bush for a little more time. I have two bushes of Crimson Glory and I would put a pot of crimson Glory just closeby and take pics of foliage and blooms for comparison. Another guess was Mirandy and Straw had one. It looks close to Mirandy too.

Thanks a lot for the help Carol. I will be back with few more pics.

I missed this thread...happy to find it - beautiful roses Khalid..

It looks like Tess d'U to me as well...the dark pink rose...

it also looks a bit like Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Rose, as well as Astrid Grafin von Hardenberg?

Thanks Jess. Would study these two roses tonight.

My Dark Desire was new last year; I'm really looking forward to seeing how it does this year. The color is divine!!

Here's a Fragrant Cloud picture. Sort of fuzzy.

Hope that helps.

Carol

Carol: Thanks for posting the pics. It's a great help. I compared the photos and I see that there is a difference in shade in my and your rose; mine is more towards orange / vermilion while yours is more towards coral red, the stated FC colour. Secondly, the foliage also looks different to me... What do you say?

Straw, Sam and Jess.... would request you to give a judgement here. Now we have two set of photos. Mine, supposed to be Fragrant Cloud, comes from a doubtful source whereas Carol's comes from an authentic source. So the question here is that does my rose resemble Carol's Fragrant Cloud? And if it doesn't, what could it be? Would request an input here.

best regards

Khalid: your color is slightly different from Carol .. but she uses different potting soil than yours. Her color is a bit deeper & gaudier .. that's typical of the peat-moss potting soil we use. My Old Port had this gaudy-reddish purple in that potting soil .. but when I planted in my alkaline clay, it's less gaudy & more lavender.

The shape of bloom & leaves look the same in Carol as in your Fragrant Cloud.

Yeah, I have no clue. Listen to Straw, as always. :)

Carol

Ok... Ok... So it's a Fragrant Cloud. CASE CLOSED.

It is a beautiful deep orange, I love that rose...

OK.... so here are few more pics of the unknown red posted above.

It is quite similar to Crimson Glory.... in initial inspection, they look same... similar blooms, similar foliage, exactly similar fragrance....

However, on detailed inspection, one could see the differences.

Fragrance is exactly similar.... ie, a pleasant spicy damask. Both have strong fragrance.... Crimson Glory is a shade stronger.

Blooms are quite similar looking. Both are crimson... CG is deep crimson with dark shadings but this unknown rose is crimson with a touch of deep magenta.

Blooms look very similar when they are opening up but when fully open, CG petals are big and wide apart whereas unknown rose petals are closely knit.... not like a classic english rose but close.

CG has an average petal count of 25-33 (on my bushes) and this rose has a petal count of 60-67 which is double that of CG. The petals of CG are velvety and large whereas the unknown rose has smaller petals.

Now the leaves.... leaves look quite similar but crimson Glory has average 5 leaflets whereas unknown rose has average 7 leaflets.

The top one with a bloom is unknown rose and bottom one with buds is Crimson Glory. Leaves are quite similar looking but unknown rose has 5 to 7 leaflets while CG has 3 to 5 leaflets. Moreover, fresh CG leaves have red edges.

Whatever this rose is, it doesn't look like CG but it is for sure a good one... please help in identifying.

wow Khalid excellent observation, they are almost identical...both stunning but I see the magenta clearly in the mystery rose. I am at a loss, I will have to try and search...haven't see one like this before...very exciting!

Khalid: I still think it's Austin Tess of d'ubervilles. I rooted 2 of them, and its branch has 7 leaflets (smaller leaves than any hybrid tea). English roses have less petals in their 1st year, but gain more petals as they mature.

Straw: Tess of the D'Urbervilles has a typical old rose shape whereas this one a little like that but not much. Than shade is different. Tess is a darker red but this one is crimson with a shade of magenta. I think the biggest difference is fragrance. This one has a very strong spicy damask fragrance which is very different from the old rose fragrance that Tess has. To me, fragrance seems to be the biggest difference. It's a very different fragrance that this rose has.... spicy damask, exactly like the fragrance of Crimson Glory. This is what is confusing me...

Ah..... our search continues pershaps

Thanks for your time ladies. Please do mention if something else comes to your mind.

best regards

Khalid: you are 100% right in your observation. Seaweed gave me cuttings of Tess, and she raved about its floral-myrrh scent, similar to Lilian Austin that I have. I think your rose is Austin rose L.D. Braithwaite, a bit brighter color than Tess, but with Old-Rose fragrance (like Crimson Glory), see link & pictures from the internet below of L.D. Braithwaite: "There is little scent until the flower ages, when it develops a charming Old Rose fragrance. Named for David C. H. Austin’s father-in-law, Leonard Braithwaite. 4.5 x 4ft."

http://www.davidaustinroses.com/american/showrose.asp?showr=967

Yes this looks close.... I have LD Braitwaite and it has quite a few buds on it. It's a new bush and I haven't seen its blooms yet. Will have to wait for 3-4 days or may be more.

Thanks for the help Straw

Few more roses to identify. I found this rose last Sep very cheap (50 cents) in a nursery. Had one small size bloom with nice fragrance. Plant was small, around 8 inches and looked weak. Since it was just 50 cents, I decided to give it a try. From Sep to Apr it didn't grow much but since last two months, it is showing good growth and numerous red blooms with dark red and pink stripes. Fragrance is sweet and fairly strong. Bloom size is small but that is the case with many other roses.

This was in second week April. Blooms were bigger (2.5-3") with a relatively high petal count.

This is in the past 20 days. Blooms are much smaller (1.5-2"). Fragrance is still good and petal count is still low.

Any guess, Straw, Sam, Jess, Valrose?

best regards

The nursery guy who knew I am very fond of fragrant roses asked me to buy this one. He didn't know the id but said it's an OGR. Fragrance is nice, moderate to strong sweet old rose. Lot of old fashioned blooms of medium size (2-3") and it's blooming in hot summers too. Bush is in a 14" pot and is fairly healthy.

The last photo is few days back and you can see the fried out blooms.

Any idea Straw, Sam, Jess, Valrose?

best regards

This rose was discussed earlier also in some other thread but I can't find it.

It was sold to me as Gentle Hermione. It had cup shaped blooms in springs with high petal count. Petals were thin and long. Moderate fragrance that I am unable to classify, may be a mix of sweet, old rose and fruits. Not a bad fragrance at all.

Straw previously mentioned that Gentle Hermione smells like stinky diapers. That was the first time I got suspicious of the id as this one didn't smell like stinky diapers at all. Secondly, Gentle Hermione, as per pics in HMF, is a light pink whereas this one is a darker pink.

Few pics from Spring this year.

After mid may, when it was quite hot, this bush had another flush and this time, blooms shape was quite different. Have a look....

An this is in the past three days. A very different shape of bloom. Bloom size is bigger than what it was in spring, petal count is less and fragrance is low, but still a nice sweet fragrance.

It doesn't look like Gentle Hermione to me. My initial guess was Ingenious Mr. Fairchild, seeing the shape of blooms in spring but now I am not sure. Straw's initial guess was Huntington Rose and it looks closer to Huntington Rose.

Any views, Straw, Sam, Jess, Valrose?

best regards

Khalid: don't know what the red-striped one is. But the dark-pink old garden rose might be Rose du Roi (moderate scent) & tiny thorns. Since I received that rose as band, it was quite stingy, more reddish, and bloomed at the bottom, rather than the top .. I gave it Bluegirl:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5470&tab=36

Your dark-pink Old-garden-rose might be Rose de Rescht (blooms on top):

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.5467&tab=36

For the last one (pink Austin), see if the leaves match with Huntington Rose or Alan Titchmarsh :

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.88651

The Condesa de Sastago .

One of the roses looked like flaming peace.http://pieceofeden.blogspot.com/2012/03/rosa-flaming-peace.html?m=1

Sam: Thanks for the input. Actually that rose has already been identified as Condesa de Sastago. Now we are talking about the last three roses.

Straw: Thanks a ton for the pointers. You are great. Studied both roses on HMF. Rose du Roi has a very different leave form. Very different. So it can't be Rose du Roi. However, the leaves of Rose de Rescht exactly resemble the leaves on my bush. Blooms are similar looking too. The only thing that doesn't go right is the fragrance. Rose de Rescht is a very old rose and is known to have very strong damask fragrance. This one is moderate. But it could be attributed to ruthless gypsum treatment that took away fragrance of most of my roses. What do you say?

If it is Rose de Resch (which it looks like, less the fragrance part), than I am delighted to have it. Always wanted to have it...... oh wow wow....

Khalid: Lots of people report that Rose de Rescht isn't that strong in scent. Rose de Rescht is known for lots of blooms, fast repeat (but blooms blow fast), and compact form.

Got my 10 roses as own-root. Spent 1 hour checking pics. on-line, and finally found what are the 2 without name-tags. Khalid's pic. of William Morris' small leaves & thorns in HMF helped me a lot. Too bad that folks only post close-up pics. of blooms, rather than bush-shot showing leaves and thorns.

Khalid: your red-striped rose looks like Red Intuition.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.36315.1&tab=36

Straw: It doesn't look like Red Intuition due to two reason:

1. Red Intuition is non fragrant and this one has a moderate fragrance even in hottest days and in springs, it had fairly strong fragrance,
2. Red Intuition is dark red stripes over red whereas this one is a mix of dark red and salmon pink stripes on vermilion.

You are right about the fragrance of Rose de Rescht. BTW, it's low fragrance during spring could be due to extra Ca due to which not only this rose, all my other roses also had reduced fragrance. However, nowadays, this rose has good fragrance. In hot summers when many other roses have become non fragrant, this one still holds a moderate fragrance which is very impressive. So I would say that it has been correctly identified as Rose de Rescht. Thanks for the help Straw.

Here are few old and latest pics of this rose.

So healthy, and picture-perfect in beauty. I love that deep-pink color. The leaves look very thick .. and I don't see much thorns either. Thanks for those great pics. of health & beauty.

Khalid: Still don't know what's your red-striped rose. HMF stated that red-intuition has semi-glossy foliage & almost thornless. HMF is wrong on fragrance many times, like stating Versigny is moderate fragrance, but in my alkaline clay that fruit scent is strongest among the 100+ varieties I grew.

Some folks report strong scent on Red Intuition. Plus your Centifolia-rootstock (good in secreting acid) can change the colors of your roses. Red intuition is the closest match among the many striped-roses I checked.

Pinterest has a vast collection of pics for striped roses:

https://www.pinterest.com/allaboutrose/striped-roses/

For any info., google inside Pinterest to get instant pictures:

To find what are the Meilland roses (French-bred, dark-green leaves that like hot climate & alkaline soil), type Meilland rose in the search box of Pinterest, and you'll get:

https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=Meilland%20rose&rs=typed&0=Meilland%7Ctyped&1=rose%7Ctyped

To find what are heat-tolerant roses, type that in search box on Pinterest, and you'll get:

https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=heat%20tolerant%20roses&rs=typed&0=heat%7Ctyped&1=tolerant%7Ctyped&2=roses%7Ctyped

To find what are multiflora-roses (like acidic & loamy soil and rainy climate), type that in Pinterest and you'll get:

https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=multiflora%20rose&rs=typed&0=multiflora%7Ctyped&1=rose%7Ctyped

To find roses for shade, type that in Pinterest and you'll get:

https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=roses%20for%20shade&rs=typed&0=roses%20for%20shade%7Ctyped

Plus any topics & travels, the pics. in Pinterest are more organized than google-search-engine of Images.

Straw: Thanks for the detailed write up and links.... you are always such a great help. However, this red striped rose still remains unidentified. I don't think it is Red Intuition because of following:

• Bloom shape is quite different. Red Intuition is more of a classic hybrid tea with large sized flowers (4-5 inch) and shadings of red and dark red. This one has small sized blooms )1.5-2.5 inch) shading in vermilion, russet and salmon pink. Salmon shade was quite prominent in spring but in hot summers, it is only red, dark red and russet shade.
• Red Intuition has a large size bush whereas this one has a small bush. After two year, despite being healthy, this bush is hardly just over a feet.
• Red Intuition has no fragrance but this one is definitely fragrant. Even after rain most part of the night, it had some fragrance at 12 noon today when it was quite hot.

I am posting few fresh pics taken today.

Straw: Please have a look at the size of bush too. This one is with me since almost two years (20 months probably) and the bush is hardly a feet tall. The bush has healthy foliage and it doesn't appear to me that the growth is retarded. I also thought of it being Cinco de Mayo but the leaf pattern is a little different and so is bloom shading. Paul Guaguin was also given a consideration but that too is a large bush plus Paul Guaguin is supposed to have a yellow shading whereas this one has never displayed any hint of yellow in it.

Could it be a miniature or patio rose?

Any other member, please help and please feel free to post you guesses. May see the older pics too posted in posts above.

best regards

You are right that it's NOT red intuition, nor cinco, nor Paul Guaguin. But it's a very pretty flower and nice-bush shape.

Straw: It has a nice fragrance too that one can sniff even during mid day when most other roses are non-fragrant. What do you say about possibility of a patio rose. Most patio roses are non-fragrant though.

This tiny bush blooms non-stop with very nice moderate fruity fragrance which at times is quite strong. It's so frustrating that I haven't been able to know what this rose is. It's a patio rose for sure that doesn't seem to be growing bigger than 18" but bloom size is quite big for a miniature rose.

How could I not know the name of such a beautiful rose....

Khalid - I did an advanced search on HMF - couldn't find anything it could be. So I tried again with reduced parameters.

Could it be

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.181960

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.249488

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.195026

Then my computer connection died. Oh well.

Carol

Thanks a lot for the help, Carol. I studied all the roses mentioned and I think none of them resembles the rose that I have. All of them are non-fragrant and the one that I have is a fragrant one. It has a fruity fragrance that stays mostly in the moderate shade. There is a visible difference in the shape and shade of blooms during spring and summer.

This is how it looked on 10 April. Petal count is higher and there are salmon pink stripes.

This is on 16 July. There are less lightly coloured stripes and it is a more deeper red. This is on 17 August. A combination of vermilion and russet with no salmon pink shading.... but this is not a big surprise. Most striped roses lose their lighter shading during hot summers in Islamabad. Scentimental almost become full red in hot summers.

I hope one day I will find out what this rose is..... but whatever it is, I am very happy to have it in my garden.

best regards

It's beautiful! I gave it another shot...HMF said it couldn't find a rose with those qualities. But it's a wonderful rose nonetheless. :)

Carol

Yes Carol and thanks for all the effort. I think it's better to have a good performing beautiful rose than a badly performing famous rose whose name is well know....

best regards

So true!!

Carol