Urine is almost all nitrogen. It is used to rebalance things like compost, which do not have enough nitrogen, and also for things like brassica, that need nitrogen but do not have the mycorrhizal connection to get it out of the soil.

True, but beyond that it depends on a persons diet and other factors, but there are other components and even micro nutrients. I have seen some numbers mentioned 10:1:4 etc, but that was of course a particular case. But my question concerned whether not using it fresh would affect the other components viability as well - or just reduce the nitrogen ratio etc.

Presumably you will use it on soil. What is the soil mineral content?

If you leave it open to the air you'll lose N as you said, but there's no reason to think something 'bad' will happen to it.

The other nutrients might form compounds that could dissipate, but for the most part, the N is what will 'gas off'. The other nutrients are far more stable.

Think about animal bedding. It's left open to the air, loses a lot of N, but is still a great nutrient resource.

There are various estimates of the nutrient content of human urine. One that is typical (from a permaculture site):

Some of the yearly values of the nutrients are:

• 3.5kg of nitrogen
• 0.5kg phosphorus
• 1.0kg potassium
• 0.5kg sulfur
• 40g magnesium
• 100g calcium

Renais

Thanks everyone!

The NPK ratio that you posted looks too perfect for urine imo renais1. I would think that urine is more to the nitrogen side, maybe 10:1:1. If you would post the link of where you got that data it would be much appreciated.

I have also thought that perhaps using urine to break down compost might deposit more minerals into the mix over time - while gassing off nitrogen. Of course, another big concern with urine would be sodium for those who do not have a low salt diet.

The 'good' thing about sodium (any salts really) is that they are highly water soluble. It's true that high sodium intake could affect urine's 'quality' but good drainage should always be a consideration. Also, if you know you are going to divert your 'waste' to the garden/compost, cut back on salt.

If you want to 'concentrate' urine's non-N nutrients, do it like animal bedding from stalls... out of the rain and on to a medium like saw dust/hay/wood chips/etc. The water and N will 'evaporate' and you'll have a more concentrated source of lower N nutrients.

Good point rgreen48 and that is what I was thinking. I would imagine that the other non N nutrients might get locked up by microorganisms so that they wouldn't wash away like the sodium would.

There was a request above in this thread for the source of my info on nutrient content. Here it is: http://permaculturenews.org/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/

The numbers are pretty much the same at a number of other sites I looked at. The most significant difference is in K content.

Note also that the numbers I posted are elemental contents of the urine. The NPK numbers used to specify fertilizer refer to N, P2O5, K2O equivalents, and are not elemental equivalents. For instance, a 100 pound bag of 10-10-10 contains the amount of P in 10 pounds of P2O5, and the amount of K contained in 10 pounds of K2O.

Renais

Yes and thank you renais1, I found out after reading the article that it is actually very close to my estimation - quote "This urine has a 10:1:4 ratio of nutrients"

So what is the content when mixed with wine????? :0 Nancy

I would have thought that the salt content of urine would be the same whether the urine donor ate a ton of salt or not. Surely salt isn't wee'd out in a larger quantity just because there is more there to get rid of? If so, wouldn't 'They' be less worried about high salt intake?

The amount of salt in one's diet definitely affects the amount they pass through urination. There are many factors contributing to the body's management of sodium levels, but even in a healthy body, with normal functioning kidneys, the processing of sodium can only happen so fast. Other factors, even day vs. night, can affect sodium amounts in urine.

A healthy body can handle a moderate amount of excess salt. It quickly becomes more of a concern when there are contributing factors to, and of, ill health.

So, is a high sodium diet bad? The answer is... that depends. Active people, and those who drink a lot of water, can lose more salt through urination and perspiration. Such people will need to replace electrolytes (of which, sodium is an example.)

The problem with cookie-cutter health advice is that it makes too many assumptions. In general though, most people get enough sodium though a regular, varied diet. Excess sodium that the body doesn't need in its daily functions will get eliminated.

i read somewhere that you should only use men's urine to be on the safe side, (can't remember why). I pee in a jug, and then dump the jug on the compost pile when its full. It is a great way to get nitrogen in the pile in liquid form when your in the tons of leaves time in the fall!

actually, the form of nitrogen urine is in, lasts longer. it is broken down more slowly by bacteria in the soil.

most fertilizers, the nitrogen is very volatile and is gone rather quickly.

Most soil tests do not even test for Nitrogen, because it is very volatile. the test might show a high level, and then re-tested a few days later, show a low level.

some plants (like blueberries) prefer most of their nitrogen as ammonium

---

description of the NITROGEN CYCLE

http://www.docbrown.info/page04/4_74revNH3e.htm

Fertilizing with human urine

http://www.goveganic.net/article217.html

blueberry-fertilization

http://articles.extension.org/pages/29213/blueberry-fertilization

I have never heard of the idea of using only male urine and can think of no reason whatsoever that there would be any measurable difference, much less some kind of actual problem.

pro tip: I use a gallon jug that used to contain chainsaw oil. It is opaque. The milk jug are translucent and give the game away if you fertilize in view of the street.

tox, I think the idea has been floated that women tend to suffer urinary tract infections more often than men. This is true, but to conclude that only urine from males should be used is unreasonable. As most resources will explain, a healthy person's urine is sterile. If the person - man or woman - is sick, or has an infection, it is usually suggested that urine not be used around edible plants. In the same line of thought, if the person is taking medicine, they might consider not using their urine in the garden.

Thanks rgreen. People tend to forget several facts about microbes and soil (probably not you!). For the benefit of others, I'll list them here. First, disease pathogens generally thrive in anaerobic conditions (inside the body). Mostly they don't do well in soil - at least they don't proliferate. Also, soil has billions of microbes per teaspoon, and many of them are not particularly healthy if you ingested them in large doses. This is on of a myriad of reasons why we don't eat dirt. As far as drugs, if you looked at the dilution, biodegradation and plant uptake steps involved in that, a few mg/day of ANY drug becomes vanishingly minuscule when added to soil in this way. It's not something I even think about (well, as an env. chemist I obviously have, but what I mean is, I've dismissed it).

I would not be using urine around food crops close to harvest though, just for the yuck factor. :-D Well OK, at the base of the tomatoes on a warm summer night, but not near the lettuce rows!

the book "Liquid Gold" by Steinfeld, all about pee for plants. Something about the women' urine had to do with, pregnant or not, time of month or not, hormones or something in it, and I think it was from that book!

Best part is saving 1.6 gallons of water. I wished i lived rural enough to go outside :(

wow, one cubic centimeter of soil has 1B bacteria, and we worry about a few in urine. Our priorities are not adjusted for orders of magnitude.

This is definitely one of those subjects where cultural 'taboos' affect our knowledge. My favorite is cow's milk. People will drink milk from a cow, but... lol... cultural sensitivities...

Urine does have some good numbers of N, P, and K and these are already in forms plants can utilize readily. Keep in mind that the water we drink was once urine because the water we drink has been recycled many times.

Equating milk and urine is like comparing a rose with manure.

kimmq is kimmsr

Set : Cultural Taboos.

Subsets : Culturally Acceptable Sources of Milk for Human Adults; Urine for Use in the Garden

Issue: Unreasonable and arbitrary taboos affect the population's ability to think clearly, and act rationally about a subject.

Don't see many people getting their bovine milk directly from the source... but of course that would be disgusting and completely unnatural. However, feed an infant in public (completely natural) and wait for the behavior police!

"Yuck... you put urine on both your garden soil and your compost? So much better to flush it down the drain using fresh water, then go buy cow manure at Home Depot for use on your roses."

Unreasonable cultural taboos and their affect on society. Ignorance!

Does dog urine count? Form what I've noticed, dog urine killed my grass where they pee but the grass flourishes where they poop.

Pawprint, I see you started another thread on dog feces, so I'll let that be...

Dog and cat urine are not recommended for veggie gardens. It is very strong, and some sources say that the salts can be too alkaline for optimum use. Sure, any natural product can be composted, but sticking to the more common, and less extreme makes the 'recipes' easier to work. You would have to dilute the urine, then it comes down to wondering how a person would capture it... yeah, way too involved. My humble, if not sometimes questioned advice lol, leave it out of the edible garden.

As far as ornamental plantings, dog urine can even kill a tree if it used often enough by a number of dogs. That's not to say it can't be used on ornamentals, just that as many dog owners have learned, it often needs diluting with a water hose. Based on what is to be learned from many resource materials, it can potentially affect the chemistry and balance of soils.

When I talk to my wife about using urine for fertilizer she gets totally grossed out. She won't even read some of the arguments I've tried to show her. My comeback to that is this : " So you're disgusted if I were to use my own urine in the garden but you have no problem eating the produce from the stores! Have you ever seen (or smelled) what farmers are spreading on their fields in the springtime. Lots of cow dung that's what! Not to mention chemicals for pest or disease control."............ I'd prefer to take my chances with a bit of the homegrown fertilizer and use the our water for the garden as opposed to wasting 2-3 gal. per toilet flush!

rgreen, you apparently have never been to a dairy farm. Many people I know that have dairy farms, not the milk factories with 1,000 head of cows, often drink the milk straight from the udder.

kimmq is kimmsr

Kim... I know, right! So disgusting. The adult cows themselves are even smart enough to know that all mature mammals are weened from milk. But... every day, so many humans virtually lap a bovine teat. Put that image in their mind though, and watch them cringe. Worse though... let a hungry baby feed from it's mother the very food designed for them and listen to the howls! Too funny. Everyone will stare like she was an unfit mother. She was supposed to go into the potentially unsanitary bathroom, don'tcha know.

Harry, I don't usually use it during the growing season (more because of the trouble diluting and making sure I don't use too much.) Instead, I use it during the off-season. While plants are in the bed, I divert as much as I can to be spread around the yard where it will be captured in the form of grass and leaves that are later used as mulch. Or I put it on the wood chip pile where, after sifting the chips for different uses, it helps me extract a wonderful compost. Maybe she'll be more accepting of those uses.

rgreen, I know that most people here say that compost piles aren't particularly high in nutrients so would I be improving it (the 8 mo. old compost) by adding urine on a regular basis or would most of those nutrients just off-gas or something? Pile is protected from the elements.

Harry

Harry... Urine is like any nutrient source. You want to know the nutrient profile of your soil and do your best to target your efforts at reaching, and maintaining a good balance. One of the good aspects of urine as a fertilizer is, as many people above mention, its high N, and lower P and K. So, if you add it to your finished compost, and don't use it quickly, you will be concentrating P, K, the micros, and whatever salts are present. Because, as you mention, indeed a good portion of the N will gas-off. If you use it quickly, you'll get more of the N.

If you use it on an active pile, it will be similar to adding 'greens'. The bacteria, etc... will use the N, convert it to a more stable form, and it will release slower when used around your plants.

If your goal is to get some N to your plants quickly, then sure, your can add it to finished compost shortly before you use it. Remember, the mature compost won't hold it as well as an active pile, and it will be somewhat like using straight urine. So be careful how you apply the amended compost around your plants - straight urine always needs diluting when used on most plants. I would either water it in after applying, or put it down just before a decent rain. I wouldn't use it in a planting hole directly in contact with roots for example.

'Sequestering' the N can be accomplished, as discussed above, through use on an active (especially high C) pile of organic matter, when spread on lawns to be used by grass, and around trees where it is put into leaf growth. The grass and leaves can be collected later, and your N is now in the local cycle.

Right now, because we are 'in season', I'm using it mostly on my last year's wood chip pile. I sift the wood chips before using them and extract a nice compost. The sifted chips are put on paths and the double sifted compost is used in the garden. In this way, I hope to capture the N and put it to work before it goes into the garden. When I cover my beds with thick mulch in the winter, i divert my N efforts to the top of the mulch. The cold makes the soil web less active, but the N is washed down into the soil and seems to help come spring.

Can we talk about dog milk next?

Not without years of therapy.

You're probably right on this.