The only good thing about the miasma around Donald Trump is that it's sucking oxygen from the Kardashian/Jenner obsession. Whenever I read anything about Caitlyn, I hear the Kinks singing "Lola". I am sympathetic to anyone struggling with their sexual preferences/identity. But that clan is over the top.

The Kardashians don't bother me one iota and neither do the Jenners. They aren't the only people in Hollywood who court publicity and they aren't the only ones earning an insane amount of money from the attention. Good for them! I really don't understand the hatefulness directed at them.

I actually watched Caitlyn Jenner's show I Am Cait for the past two seasons. I watched out of curiosity and because I really didn't know much about transgender issues and wanted to know more. CJ seems far from miserable. In fact, after seeing Bruce Jenner on the Kardashian show (yep, I've watched that, too!), Caitlyn seems much, much happier than Bruce did. Certainly not suicidal.

Personally, I don't think Caitlyn Jenner should be the role model for the transgender community. It took her way to long to comes to terms with her gender dysphoria and do something about it.

The first transgender woman was Christine Jorgensen. She transitioned in the early 1950's. In over 60 years, the only difference now is that we have immediate access to information through social media. Transgender people are now being heard about at younger and younger ages. The truth is, the earlier the transition, the happier the person.

In another thread we talked about parents favoring one child over another and the struggles these children still feel as adults. I can only think that this is one hundred times fold when it comes to a transgender child/young adult.

I'm happy listed all the scenarios. It is difficult to keep track just reading all the possibilities so you can just imagine what a transgender person is going through.

The sexuality component is very confusing to me especially when the person does not elect to have sexual reassignment surgery. In some circles this is known as a shemale.

I am wondering if Caitlyn thought that by transitioning, she would automatically want to have a relationship with a man? This obviously did not happen.

Plain and simple, he's a transvestite, NOT a true transgender. He likes to 'play the part'~wearing make up, getting hair/nails done, expensive female clothing~it fills enough of the void he's missing, imo. From what I see, he's stll very masculine, mannerisns, walk, voice, and doesn't seen to be interested in changing that part of himself. When he first came out, I was of the opinion he would never go thru with the necessary surgery, and wasn't even a part of his thinking. The man likes women. Wouldn't be surprised if he went back to being Bruce. He's made some easy money in the last couple of years. Think i'll give that 'gig' a try.

I don't think that regret about transition is nonexistent but most major studies peg it as pretty low - below 2% in modern studies. Risk factors for regret include "lack of support from the patient’s family, poor social support, late-life transitions, severe psychopathology, unfavorable physical appearance, and poor surgical result (Cohen-Kettenis 2003, Lawrence 2003, Landen 1998, Smith 2005)" and as surgery has gotten better regret seems to have declined.

recent studies of transition worldwide seem to indicate that it has a major benefit of reducing suicide risk, some studies have found suicide risk is actually reduced to that of the non-trans population. The risk of suicide for non-transitioned people suffering from gender identity disorder is quite substantial, for example in one Canadian study 11% of trans people had actually attempted suicide in the past year with any attempts toward official transition (getting an identity document changed, hrt, surgery) associated with reduced risk.

They aren't the only people in Hollywood who court publicity and they aren't the only ones earning an insane amount of money from the attention. Good for them! I really don't understand the hatefulness directed at them.

The "hatefulness" stems from the fact that they have done nothing of entertainment value to warrant the amount of money that they have amassed. Talent deserves to be rewarded. Empty fame-whoring does not.

IMO, of course. ;-)

IMO to publicly transition so late in life you're probably very sure. But it's probably also very difficult, riches or no. And Caitlyn might have a lot of people telling her she's a terrible Christian and going to hell, which if you're religious has got to sting. Just as you can't pray the gay away, however, I doubt you can pray the woman away.

Crossdressing.....

https://www.quora.com/Are-male-crossdressers-usually-gay-or-straight

And also begs the question, who does s/he form a romantic association with. Caitlyn/Burce says she is not attracted to men. This is where it gets so confusing. As Caitlyn she couldn't, for religious reasons, be attracted to a woman. As Bruce she could. But she doesn't think she's Bruce. She thinks she's Caitlyn. There's a lot more to it than transgender.

Patty, she is not simply a cross dresser. Those breasts are real. She's been taking hormones for a few years now.

How do you automatically condemn something when you've done nothing to understand it? At least read the medical research. In the Target thread, you could see that some people don't understand the difference between transgender, transvestites, and pedophiles. Sort this all out before posting to condemn!

I too have somewhat of a negative view of the K Klan having watched their show over the years. I am not necessarily very sympathetic to Bruce /Caitlyn but I can't imagine doing this for publicity. I can only think what hell it must be to live in his her skin. This is really troubling.

Caitlyn is the one who put his sexual identity out there for the world to see, so I think he's fair game. Where do you think she gets her money now?

Anyway, I read an interview after she transitioned and she said she is not gay, but is still into women. Which begs many many questions to be asked.

Fair game for what?

I once saw a deal on PBS about transgenders and if I recall correctly it said the candidates undergo extensive analysis prior to the process to make sure they weren't the type that would want to change back in "a couple of years". Not like changing hair color, you know. The Kardashian stuff seems fabricated but I don't care too much one way or another.

Jelly, he's fair game to discuss.

Got it, Oakley! But in all fairness, it's not like Bruce Jenner could transition to Caitlyn without the world knowing about it. And why shouldn't she put her sexual identity "out there" for the world to see? If you watched her show, every episode dealt with issues faced by the transgender community. So what if she earned money for it?

'Along this line, having the public and press perpetually gawking, ridiculing and criticizing is nothing more than cruel and inhumane.'

kswl: 'That is undoubtedly one of the funniest statements I have read here in a very long time. As if she did not seek the publicity with the zeal of an Olympian! '

First of all, my statement was made with anyone in Jenner's situation in mind - famous, in the news, or not. I believe there were reports he has been suicidal but regardless, it's common knowledge that most if not all people who struggle with these things have thought about ending their life. I see no reason Jenner would be any different in that respect. Add the world stage and all is magnified. So he could be more vulnerable.

Second, whether someone sought publicity - for reasons only they know - is not the same thing as the treatment they get as a result of publicity. To imply they got what they deserved is also cruel. Besides, it's not like Jenner could have avoided a circus since he has been famous for most of his life. People love this stuff - even more so seeing stars or other successful people fall. Maybe Jenner was giving the world the finger with the way he handled it all. I don't think he fabricated a gender identity issue so he could undergo a sex change for fun or profit.

I wonder what the transgender community will think if Caitlin transitions back?

I do think in general it would be much more polite to refer to her as her preferred pronouns which are now female.

I saw that program on PBS, too, and that's why I said surely she's been in therapy for it. Since this is her second try, I would think she's said everything that needed said. Yet, she's still in doubt about continuing? I still think she's in torment and I wouldn't want to live like that for a minute. It's like she just can't jump off the cliff. She's 60 something? Maybe the transformation wasn't what she expected? You can't change "who" you are.

I've never seen any of their TV programs. I don't know which daughter is which. I might recognize the wife if I saw a picture. I'm interested in what makes people tick. I'm interested in what makes people do the things they do. I don't care what their name is. The recent thread on not being the favorite child explains so much. Nurture vs. nature. As an adult going back to school, I struggled over that for my college term paper. I must have had good arguments, the professor spent quite a bit of class time discussing my views; more than he spent with anyone else.

Snook, there's been nothing spoken/writter in re:to *definite* sex reassignment surgery. If he is still attracted to women and wants to date women, there is no way this will ever h.appen. As for the publicity, E must have offered a nice chunk of change for his story, and he could have turned them down. Before his decision, he wasn't exactly a media icon with paparazzi chasing after him. There was very little focus of him on the K show. If he really wanted privacy during his ordeal, he could have gone to Europe or any country. There may have been speculation as to why he was leaving the counrty, but the puplicity would certainly be a lot less. Imo, much of the hoopla is being driven by money.

" If he is still attracted to women and wants to date women, there is no way this will ever h.appen."

Why will this never happen ?

Patty, your thoughts on transvestite are interesting. I never thought of that, but it makes sense.

There are no rules regarding what sex you desire. That applies to everyone including transgendered people.

4boys, I believe the statement " If he is still attracted to women and wants to date women, there is no way this will ever happen." refers to Caitlyn's claim that her religion would not accept her being in a relationship with a woman.

What I don't understand is that if Caitlyn is actually a transgender gay woman, why wouldn't she just accept that and find joy in her remaining years, in a loving relationship with another woman? She came so far by revealing that she is transgender, so why would she put her religion's stance on gay relationships over her desire to find love again?

wtf

And along those lines pickyshopper, did she not think ahead? Which is why I thought maybe she felt that when she transitioned, she would be attracted to men?

Caitlyn is transgender not a crossdresser.

She does not take off the "female" clothing and have another life as a man. She went through the adams apple shave,implants and hormones. She has suffered gender dysphoria for over 40 years.

How many 66 year-olds out there are actually searching for a compatible sexual partner ?

....but all everyone wants to know is who she'll hook-up with...

There is NO reputable source for this rumor.

But aren't sexual orientation and gender identity two different things? One could transition in the latter, while still being attracted to whomever you were attracted to before. Whether as a straight male or transgender woman.

"There is NO reputable source for this rumor".

What?? You mean someone writing a book citing sources "close" to Caitlyn isn't a reputable source? Does that mean we can't rely on news reports from The Enquirer or OK magazine either? ;-)

Linelle, Caitlyn's friend Jenny Boylan, author of She's Not There (a really good book about her own transition), is still married to the woman she was married to before her transition.

Same for Chaz Bono. He had the same girlfriend as a woman and as a man.

I know a transgender male. He had previously been a very unhappy and reluctant lesbian. I didn't know him pre-transition, it's what he told me. He's still married to the same woman as before. He's had his share of physical difficulties with all the surgeries. It's been tough.

The story of Caitlyn Jenner regretting her decision is false. Per Snopes it came out originally in 2015 by a clickbait type website and recently reemerged with some slight changes. I never believed she would go this far then go back.Caitlyn NOT regretting her decision

4boys2, so you've been told personally by Bruce/Caitlyn? What you say is *your* opinion and not a fact. He dresses as a female, has been injected with hormones, as well as a few minor surgeries, but that does not make him female. I've known trangendered men, drag queens, gays, and tranvestites. Trans men may/may not 'act' effeminate. I've been told its their spirit that's the correct sex, and not what they are physically born. Most have the desire to surglically become the sex they feel they should have been born. Drag queens dress female, can be gay or straight, and have no desire to be the opposite sex. Gays prefer their own sex, may or may not dress like the opposite sex, and may/may not have mannerisms/characteristics of the opposite sex. Transvestites simply want to appear as a woman or man, with dressing 'the part' being the most important. There is no desire to become the opposite sex. It may be nothing more than an expression of their female/male 'energy', which all humans are born with. We've all known men/women who we may have assumed were gay, but it wasn't the case. There are men with more female 'energy' and women with more male 'energy', yet the desire to dress or become the opposite sex is the farthest thing from their mind. Bruce/Caitlyn may be 'caught' somewhere in the middle if he choses not to undergo sex reassignment surgery. If that becomes the case, I see him as a man with more female energy who prefers to dress and live as a woman, since he identifies with the opposite sex, making him more transvestite than transgerder.

I was unaware, Arcy, that "transgender" has been classified as being a mental illness.

"They need our compassion, patience, and understanding..." (and condescension, apparently)...

That followed by calling them delusional and mentally ill. Yikes.

Meanwhile, I can't think of a more inane and unimportant issue than whether Jenner wishes to be a man or a woman. I wish he/she and the Kardashians would all get out of camera range for good.

I believe we need to research WHY we are so confused about our genders.

Just an aside, an observation, if you will. No one thinks twice when a woman dresses in men's attire. I wear jeans and cotton shirts or t shirts every day. I don't own a dress or high heels. No one cares. Remember when women were wearing men's suit coats with the sleeves pushed up? or men's white shirts?

The discussion isn't so much centered on Caitlyn as it is on the issues that she has brought to our attention. Those of you who live in more metropolitan areas probably see it every day. Those of us who don't are trying to make sense of it all. I would hope her story would pave the way for someone else who is struggling with the same issues. It takes a village at every age. We could call her Sam or Pat.

Scientists haven't even "made sense" of it. There has been some brain research done on transgender people, but brain research is really in its infancy.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Snookums, we will have to agree to disagree.

"Transvestites simply want to appear as a woman or man, with dressing 'the part' being the most important ... Bruce/Caitlyn may be 'caught' somewhere in the middle if he choses not to undergo sex reassignment surgery. If that becomes the case, I see him as a man with more female energy who prefers to dress and live as a woman, since he identifies with the opposite sex, making him more transvestite than transgerder."

According to the transgender women who hung out with Caitlyn for two seasons on her show discussing trans issues, not all transgender people desire sexual reassignment surgery. Why is it so important to categorize a person anyway? If someone says "I am transgender" (as Caitlyn has), can't we just take them at their word?

Caitlyn has undergone feminization surgery, had breast augmentation surgery ("minor surgeries"???), and takes female hormones. That goes somewhat beyond "dressing the part."

"I can't think of a more inane and unimportant issue than whether Jenner wishes to be a man or a woman."

If CJ's transition brings awareness and acceptance of the transgender community, I see that as a good thing. I honestly don't believe that a person's "wishes" have anything to do with it.

"Kandice Fields (featured in the VIDEO "Debunking the myths: Transgender Health and Well-being," speaks to the often-invasive questions trans people are expected to answer from well-meaning strangers — something that 41 percent of transgender individuals report being asked in professional settings.

" 'I know that many people may be curious, or coming from a good place and wanting to educate themselves and build relationships with people," Fields says. "But reducing people to what surgeries they've had, and what their genital configuration is, is dehumanizing, objectifying, and impolite. It's rude. Generally, you wouldn't just walk up to someone that you don't really know well and ask them about their genitals. That would be weird for anybody.' "

jellytoast, I was referring to the reports that Jenner may be wishing to re-trans back to being a man. I'm not taking them at face value, just explaining my use of "wishes" in the context of this thread.

And I do think too much has been made of this, not by the transgender community but by politicians. I heard this morning that, in a school with 2,000 students, two will be transgendered. When we have to enormous problems we have to deal with, making THIS much out of an issue which affects such a tiny percentage of the population makes no sense to me. I view it as a distraction and diversion, keep Americans drooling over sexual/genitalia issues, as usual, and they won't look closely at the people who are really doing a job on this country and the world.

Tibb, do you happen to remember where you heard that statistic? I'd love to share it with my cousin who suffers from transphobia.

"Sexual orientation is who you go to bed with,” Spack tells ABC News, “but gender identity is who you go to bed as.”

Sexual Identity

Patty ~ Ask all transvestites that you know if they consider that term to be a derogatory ...

And as far as not knowing Caitlyn ,they are facts..

Her facts...I only choose to use the term that she identifies as being.

My hope someday is that people will come to terms enough to understand that peoples sexual orientation or gender preference is no ones business . I'm getting sick of hearing about Caitln but not because I don't care about the struggles. Yeah I agree it's good to educate the public but we all know this is going to remain controversial forever or aleast a very very long time. Let's cut to the chase and just say its nobodies business.

CindyMac, I heard it on NPR this morning.

JTL, I agree that it's no one's business, and I'm also sick of hearing about Caitlin. A friend of mine said, if she had cared more about Bruce, she might care more about Caitlin. In fairness, there are lots of nontrans people I'm sick of seeing and hearing about too.

Cindy~ It's also in the link I attached.

Tibb and 4boys2, thank you!