Is he a licensed contractor? If so, you can file a complaint pointing to unacceptable workmanship. If he is licensed, he would be motivated to do the right thing rather than have a complaint filed against him. In order to dispute his claim that dirt is good enough, Google "how to build a flagstone patio" and you will find all recommend some sort of concrete base. Anything without a good base will surely end up with cracking in the joints.

I'm not sure I'd agree 100% with the above. It IS possible to lay flagstone pavers directly on the soil but not necessarily recommended. And a concrete base is not a requirement unless subject to considerable frost heave but the crusher run/sand base is highly recommended for stability. Considering the investment bluestone is, I'd insist on a more accepted, traditional installation.

I'd suggest speaking with this person and letting them know you are not satisfied with their installation methods and to make appropriate changes. Let them know that no additional funds will be forthcoming unless they do - money talks loudly!! And I agree that if a licensed contractor you do have some recourse. Buy there are a great many LC's out there that have no state credentials or licensing :-(

I'm embarrassed to say I found him on Craigslist and he boasts to be a retired engineer who has built skyscrapers. He didn't even dig up the grass. Stated it will die anyways. I was born on a Saturday, but not last Saturday. This is giving me a bad vibe. I will have this talk. Thanks for the feedback guys.

he's a pancaking idiot. "Retired engineer" isn't a qualification.

Thanks. I did connect with and let him know that I'd like to use my process which involves excavation of the grass, laying down the crusher run (packed) and sand and a industry standard barrier fabric. He has agreed and of course states I needed to be wiling to incur the costs associated with my "upgrades". I know crusher run and sand are not that expensive so okay...but how much should I expect to pay for the additional labor of excavation? It has been raining here for forty days and forty nights seem like, but he may have to bring in a bob cat from my general knowledge of seeing this done before and maybe that packer "thingy magiggy". I just want to be prepared for his upcharge.

Revolutionary... I like that pancaking term. I feel like he's just stacking on things as I realize what everything entails. I'm usually better at picking contractors... Those who are referred. This was an impulse selection, that should not have been.

ok, back up. What has been completed up until this point? Just a bunch of stone plopped on grass? If that's the case, it may be better to just pay him for the stone, pay him for the short amount of time he spent on site, get a refund for the rest, and send him on down the road. And this is coming from someone who normally gives contractors the benefit of the doubt on here.

How close is the patio to the street or driveway? As rainy as it's been (I'm in central VA so not too far away) any machine is going to tear the holy heck out of the lawn area it crosses unless the operator is really skilled and conscientious. I'm not a gambling man but I wouldn't bet on this guy.

As to eventual cost... you're close enough to the DC area that you probably have similar pricing. For a full turnkey job - one day you have grass, a couple days later you have a finished patio - random pattern rectangles on an aggregate base will generally run you anywhere from $18-27 sq ft depending on site conditions. Irregular flag is a a bit more for the extra time it takes to fit everything together. How does this compare with your expectations?

This is a diagram of what I want. There is a radius wall and 90 degree wall with pillars and also a pergola. 420 sq ft approximately with irregular stone. There are also stairs. The other pic is what has been done so far. The rain has delayed things which is awesome! The footers don't seem deep enough.

a quick google search shows one town in DE listing frost depth for footers at 32". A poured concrete footer flush with grade and the thickness of what looks like a 2x6 is inappropriate for masonry.

this guy appears to be in way over his head. I'm terrified to see what he will consider appropriate construction of steps and an overhead structure like a pergola.

You have been very helpful and your advice coincides with all of my prior knowledge and research. Thank you for helping me through this.

if you stick with him, good luck. Based on the scope of work you mentioned this is all of a $12-15k plus project, make sure you're confident with where your money is going.

Why would steps taper as shown in your drawing? If built that way, it would be not good. Really not good.

There are other funky aspects to the perimeter edge of the patio. I will confess that I might possibly not understand what it is supposed to be. Not trying to be over critical, but it looks like there are undesirable features built into the design.

As you can see he does not like my suggestions. I'm so stuck because he has half of the money as down payment and I have minimal materials in my possession.

It's your money. You have the right to "micro manage" if you don't believe the job is being done correctly. It's his job to demonstrate his competency (so far, fail) and suck it up. Don't like it? That's what rolling up the windows of the truck and screaming as you drive to the next site is for. God, this guy. THIS is why this industry faces an uphill battle demonstrating our awesomeness. And the condescending tone? Not ok at all.

You may feel stuck, but here's what I see happening if you let it ride. He has no intention of following best practices, the "design" is a dumpster fire of bad ideas, you'll have to pay full retail PLUS demolition to fix his mistakes in less than five years time, and he'll continue to bully you until he gets the last check. In 20 years in the business I've worked with some bad apples, cleaned up behind many others, that's what happens. Man this got under my skin. I'm going to go drive a tractor for a while.

Yes. I agree. I'm keeping dialougue short with him until I see him personally today. He has $5100 of my money already and I have limited materials in my possession. I'm willing to be fair and give him money for his time but not $5100 for a day of work, 3 consultations, some cinder blocks, bags of cement, a few 2x4's and 4- 6x6 posts.

don't like to kick someone when they are down...but you had me at "I found him on Crag's List" you can check anyone's status for their license on line in any state....

I can accept that wrong. I'll take the kick...heck I'm kicking myself. Just not taking anymore kicks from him.

if it isn't a love match, cut your losses and move on-

Thanks for the candid advice. You're probably right. Hoping to at least get my stone, crusher and sand delivered and then he can kick rocks. No pun!

@JoJo I took a quick glance at Delaware's DPOR website and it doesn't look like where the OP is has a license requirement for landscaping. I remember needing 6 license subcategories to plant a bush in CA so I get the misunderstanding :)

@Tammie since you said you did 50% down, it looks like you are way light to actually achieve the scope of work described in the delmarva area. If you want to message me I'm happy to take a look at your drawing and give you a realistic set of cost ranges and answer any other questions. I can also reach out to some friends in the area to see if they can suggest someone to bat cleanup for you.

Don't beat yourself up, either. I saw red flags immediately because I do this every day. Most homeowners go through this process 1-3 times in their lifetime, so how would one know what's reasonable? It's what the bottom feeders count on.

Thanks for info-and BTW....nothing wrong with using someone that is unlicensed if you are willing to put in the time and energy to see their work and get info...and know what the repercussion is if something could go wrong....

I would get your ducks in order with a list of actions you will pursue if he does not cease all work and return the balance not already incurred on the job. I assume he is not licensed and therefore no recourse with the state licensing agency.Does your city require a permit for the pergola? If so, the city could issue a stop work order giving you more ammunition that he is incompetent.

Send him a certified letter requesting him to stop work and demand a refund of the balance not spent. In that letter state what you will do if he refuses to comply if not within 10 days. File a complaint with the state licensing board reporting someone who is contracting without a license. If they say there is nothing they can do, then ask them what can you do (they will probably say they don't give legal advice) but that is exactly what they are saying ... your only remedy would be to take legal action. Need to put some pressure on him and make it so he becomes the one who wants to cut and run. If he just walks away, you can sue him in court. Find out the maximum amount of damages you can claim in small claims court.

Thanks Rev. I appreciate that. I have contacted a more reliable licensed landscaper in the area that has come through reputable recommendations. I'm feeling better the closer I get to having my meeting with "the pancaker" this evening. I now know where to come when I need advice, BEFORE, I tackle a job like this again. I'll be sure to post the finished job.

Great advice JSL. I'll begin drafting a letter now.

Slightly OT.......but this exactly the type of discussion that has been missing that I referred to in my post abut the subjects discussed in this forum! This is how we all - client and contractor/design professional - learn about the process.

I will be quick to point out that I am NOT a contractor - I am just a designer - but I have been in this business long enough to know the technical processes involved (even had to schlep through them myself back in the training days!!) and I do work with an extremely competent and skilled contractor on many of my projects. This is not the way it's done, either in the technical application or in the interaction between client and contractor.

I am not sure what recourses you may have available in your area for this type of contractor malpractice, but I would be intent on the research to determine what they may be if I were you. And I would not tolerate that sort of attitude and condescension from someone I employed (and yes, he is your employee for this project) and who was sitting on a large chunk of my money.

Unfortunately, as noted above, this sort of trial and error approach (and this one could be a trial by fire!) in locating a competent and qualified contractor is very common. It is a bit of a closing the barn door now that the horse is in the neighboring county situation but for future projects, make sure that ANY contractor you hire is licensed for the work you contemplate AND bonded AND insured. Have them bid out the job in detail according to a drafted plan and then sign a contract spelling out exactly what is expected, how it will be accomplished, what it will cost and when it will be done. THAT is your legal recourse.

Hiring a contractor.

FWIW, my first degree was in architecture. There is a very big difference in the design and engineering behind building construction and landscape hardscape installation. That he would make comparisons between the two only reinforces his lack of experience and qualifications for YOUR project.

Update: things went worse than ever. He acted a complete a$$. Got here before my husband and yelled and screamed at me in my home. My kids witnessed it. I can't even talk about it. Said he wasn't giving me anything and left. It was way more intense then this. I can't even talk about it. But thanks be to God I have it recorded. You all are a lifesaver. When my husband called because he knows he's recorded he claimed he will do a work up and give us our money. There is less than $800 of materials in my possession. I swear I don't want to give him jack. I just want a fair return on my deposit.

I've been lurking to see how this turned out. That recording is worth a lot! Wow! I guess you will be wiser next time you hire someone. It's a learning curve, and most of us go through it! I was single, purchased a new home on a golf course, noticed a pool guy's card at my door. I was planning on building a pool. I liked his eyes. He seemed honest.... Short version: He didn't finish the pool. I had to have an atty write a cease and desist, put in a claim on his bond with the State Contractor's licensing board, only to find out there were 7 other claims. Got a little money back but had to pay another contractor to finish his mess. Cost twice as much as it would have had I been a little wiser. I sure am now! Good luck to you!

Thanks Suzy. He was horrible. He came in telling me his spill about how you can't compact rock only soil and landscapers don't know what they talking about. He's built million dollar buildings. I can't tell him how to do his job. I said well it's my home and I want it to be stable past the one year warranty so I do want to know the "means and methods'. He went on to say I should not need to know the means and methods and totally went off. Grabbed his bag and screamed and yelled. Gathered his tools and it just got uglier. All I saw was red. If it wasn't for my faith and my public position things would have been way worst. My neighbors and kids witnesses his buttholeness and I have it on film.

So sorry this happened but kudos to you for standing your ground!! And recording the interchange and his tirade was inspired.

"you can't compact rock only soil and landscapers don't know what they talking about." Sheesh!! Now I'm seeing red :-))

Please let us know how this all turns out.....we are with you all the way.

@gardengal I know, right? If he's actually a supercool awesome engineer you'd think he'd be familiar with things like, I don't know, ASTM D 2940.

@Tammie, the dude sounds unhinged. Hopefully it all works out. Don't be afraid to call the cops if he continues to be... rambunctious.

Hello all. I wanted to again thank you for all of your support with my issue. I have filed a civil claim but don't think much will come out of it. I have a nice contractor now and my patio is almost done. I do have a quick question because my level of trust is still a little low as I'm sure you would understand. I am getting the stairs finished and the contractor has put a nice amount of the paver scraps in with the crusher run. He is now tamping it. While I can appreciate a certain level of resourcefulness, do you all forsee any potential problems with this. Thanks.

I don't have an education in this but if they are the whole looking pieces along the back edge I would not think that was a good thing. They cannot be compacted like broken up gravel.

Paver cuts should be thrown in the dumpster. Contractor is a cheap stake if he is too lazy to haul away with the other garbage at the end of the job.

It's hard to tell from that photo. It depends what budget you gave him. I appreciate resourcefulness too, but it would be nice to see the completed thing without the benefit of the screen and window. I think it could work as long as it's really tamped down flat. You'll still get weeds in it. That's what happens when anything but concrete is laid. What you don't want is it to be loose so anyone walking on it will be kicking stones or tripping on edges. Better pic please.

Thanks Suzi, It's a picture of the stairs he is building outside of the sliding glass door. There are some bricks/pavers thrown in the middle of the crusher. You can see it towards the back along the wall. I can try to get a better one when I get home if he isn't finished.

To my understanding this contractor is just stuck with the other dude's mess! Those pavers and bricks may not crush as small as you would like, but I've gone up many stairs here and there that are rough and rustic. Only problem with that is they tend to scuff your shoes, but a new pair of shoes now and then is a small price to pay :-)

Hopefully he'll smooth out the steps so the rough doesn't show. I bet this turns out fabulous!!

Actually, we started from scratch. I am way too ethical to make someone clean up another's mess. New and quality materials, new design. I am paying for the service I want. Lesson learned. I just didn't want any sinkage later, but he's put in quite a bit of crusher so I feel somewhat okay with the tamping he's doing. I just wanted to be more certain.