I very carefully removed a confirmed HVX hosta recently without killing it first..little afraid of roundup..have a young Kousa dogwood nearby..looks ok leaving some open space there but I have an Autumn fern ($1 on clearance) that I could plant there..planting there wouldn't infect it right?..just curious to get your opinion..

As long as there is no green bark on the dogwood there will be no effect from Round Up which doesn't penetrate bark that is not new and green. Once Round Up (glyphosate) comes in contact with soil it immediately binds with it and becomes inert and will not cause any harm to the fern or any other plant. The only way glyphosate gets into a plants system is through the plants foliage, period.

Read up on glyphosate on how it works and I don't think you would be afraid to use it.

Jon

BTW, Jon, if you take your pics with camera in landscape mode instead of portrait mode, the horizontal distortion goes away on this site.

Jon - I admit I haven't used glyphosate and know nothing about it..once knowing that hosta had HVX I wanted to take it out..since posting my comment I put some compost over the low area where the hosta came out..once the hosta was in the trash I checked for pieces of root or leaves then smoothed the dirt and threw out my disposable gloves..today I spread dark crumbly compost there without disturbing the soil and also around the dogwood..looks nice now so I'm letting things be..so to be clear..if you had a hosta with HVX that you wanted to remove you would kill it first..then feel free to replant anything you want..

I definitely would. I see no downside to killing it before digging.

No matter if the chance of infection from HVX infected bits of root is small, why take any risk when you can eliminate it. Digging out a live hosta runs two threats:

1- You may cut through the roots of the infected hosta and contaminate one nearby.

2- You may leave infected bits of live roots in the soil. According to Dr. Lockhart's report on his Phase I research these bits could remain infected for over 2 years. He supposedly now says the reference was to a delayed HVX test result on possibly infected hostas.

These are the threats you invite by digging out an infected hosta. What possible problem could killing it pose?

Jon

Admit that I will be keeping an eye on the hostas that were next to it..too late to kill it first now..the test was negative on the closest one to it so MAYBE that will be the end of it..will keep reading your posts and improve my knowledge..

FWIW, Jon is still trying to kill a hosta with RoundUp. That is his current, very scientific experiment detailed above. They are tough to kill as he has shown in the photos. Wishing him great success.

He has not had any with HVX to experiment on. The American Hosta Society sponsored a study, (details at the AHS) and the have produced a brochure about what they recommend you should do if you have HVX. You get to decide. RoundUp and replant as Jon advises, or do what the AHS suggests.

AHS Hosta Virus X Brochure

-Babka

Babka - thanks for the link..hate the pests and diseases aspect of gardening..

Hostas are not difficult to kill at all. It is just a matter of using the appropriate strength of glyphosate. As a matter of fact utilizing 'poison ivy' strength' as I have pointed out is very effective and the hosta responds quickly to being treated.

I have learned this as I went along. Some people stick with their beliefs and refuse to accept undeniable facts. They are like dishonest politicians that feel that if they repeat a lie often enough they can get people to believe it.

The idea that HVX survives outside living tissue has been thoroughly debunked. There is no way HVX survives in a dead hosta plain soil or anything other than living hosta tissue. This is the absolute fact that a few people continually try to deny in spite of overwhelming scientific evidence. I would say that continually repeating something knowingly false over and over again is irresponsible at best.

....and we again see how Babka fails to honor her promise and continues to troll my posts.

Jon

To be clear, disagreeing with you Jon, is not trolling. Otherwise by your own definition, you would be troll #1 here. .. lolz. Just sayin... ;) have a happy 4th all!

smorz,

When someone has been proven wrong several times and keeps trolling your posts repeating misinformation, that is trolling in any person's estimation.

Well, since this is my post and first someone posts incorrect information and personally attacks my credibility and now you post calling ME a troll and defend this person.......well, lol, pot calling kettle.

PS- I wouldn't respond anywhere near as much if it were not for people denying science and trolling my posts and comments just making snide remarks and spreading illogical and unscientific nonsense. It seems that some people just can't stand being proved wrong.

My advice is, get over it, everybody makes mistakes. Intelligent people learn from them, some are stubborn and refuse to learn or do things like troll people in revenge for daring to prove them wrong. lol, ITSF,

When you dig up your test specimen I would recommend rinsing off the remaining root ball completely to do a thorough inspection.

From my experience spraying a hosta with a tank mix containing a double strength roundup (for perennials) and double the triclopyr (for woody plants) of the poison ivy spray you used, it resulted in burn down of the plant (Hosta Earth Angel) and the plant was gone for the rest of the season. The spraying was done in mid summer, while all hostas are most actively growing, and it was gone the rest of the year. The next spring the hosta came back, slightly smaller but still very alive, and it continued to grow and get larger over time. Other people who have attempted to kill hostas with roundup have seen similar results, and have posted that on the forum, where they get burn down for a season and return the next, so I would agree that they are difficult to kill. That is part of the speculation as to why HVX remains in root debris so long, even without being attached to a living plant. HVX roots appear to be hard to kill, or at least take a very, very long time to break down in the soil.

So again, Jon, be sure to dig up the plant and rinse it off for a thorough inspection. Post pictures of it so everyone can see if the roots are the normal cream/beige color or mush. Also post pictures of the crown to see if there are any dormant buds or viable crown still showing.

Babka posted a good link above, showing the AHS results/recommendations on HVX (and how Scilla is also susceptible) so I see no way that being a trolling post, and she even followed your "guidelines" for acceptable replies. I've posted my expert opinions, like I did here on the forum in other posts, but you have continually distorted what I've said in post after post to your own benefit. I'm certain you will say that we are all wrong and you are the only person here who is right about roundup.

And take note of the Roundup Guarantee. It doesn't guarantee root kill of every living plant. It lists plants that are most susceptible to being killed by roundup right on the label - and it doesn't include tough to kill plants like Canadian thistle or horsetail or bindweed. Some plants are highly susceptible. Others only somewhat. There is a wide range of responses in plants to roundup and other herbicides. The guarantee simply says "*Consumer Guarantee: If for any reason you are not satisfied after using this product, simply send us original proof of purchase, and we will refund the purchase price." So it is a money back guarantee, not a guarantee to kill all roots.

I happen to agree on somethings with Babka as I explained your experiment holds no weight for some reasons I explained, and some I had not but Chris just touched on some on the roundup end, above. Soooo, I clearly did not call you a troll. Reread and re comprehend. But partly in jest and partly kinda serious... Im beginning to think your retirement is riding on Monsanto stocks or sumtn for all the plugs you have given roundup.

2% glyphosate is the percentage in Round Up as it is most commonly sold in local stores. Double strength would be 4%. For perennials 10% glyphosate is recommended or 2 1/2 times your 'double' strength.

Poison ivy strength Round Up is 18% glyphosate or 4 1/2 times stronger than 'double strength'.

'Glyphosate-based herbicides all work on the same biochemical principle -- they inhibit a specific enzyme that plants need in order to grow. The specific enzyme is called EPSP synthase. Without that enzyme, plants are unable to produce other proteins essential to growth, so they yellow and die over the course of several days or weeks. A majority of plants use this same enzyme, so almost all plants succumb to Roundup.' Link

Glyphosate is not a burn herbicide. It works throughout the entire plant by inhibiting their ability to grow and they die. It is possible that since it appears you didn't use the recommended strength or close to it. If you used the strengths you said you did they where far too weak to work properly.

You can be assured that I will post pictures when I dig up the test specimens. Your argument has been that HVX is transferable in soil and you have consistently misquoted the research as showing "Soil was found to remain infective" leaving out "with HVX plant debris and root material" which was the entire point of our disagreement. There was never any distortion by me of anything you have said. You first said HVX lives in dead leaves and dead roots, then said this was 'foolish' and now that Babka and/or you have had all your posts removed I suppose you will now feel safe in saying whatever you want. I would never try to have anything I said removed. I stand by what I say.

I have read the label on both the Round Up and generic glyphosate and found no reference to 'Canadian thistle or horsetail or bindweed' as you say there is. I looked up instructions from Monsanto online and again no such reference.

The very first hit on Google gave specific glyphosate products to use on these and other weeds. It would be foolish to think household Round Up was used in all specific agricultural applications. The correct product (and Monsanto makes many high strength products to deal with specific tough weeds

Link to high strength glyphosates

Since you looked up some hard to kill weeds, I wonder why you didn't look up or perhaps disclose the complete information. Farmers use glyphosate in concentrations far higher than any recommended or allowed in home use.

Round Up has no control on how you might use their product, so allowing for a money back guarantee is a generous guarantee and good business.

Once I feel the 3 plants I have treated are dead I will show everyone what the roots et al look like. I don't need your advice on how to conduct my experiment. Also, why is it you never post any links to what you say? I always post links. Is it that much of an inconvenience to post a link to your claims or is that too much to ask?

Smorz, unless your intent is simply to troll, please stop acting like one. Unless you still believe (I can't imagine you could be that naïve) that HVX virus lives in bare soil or dead leaves and roots then maybe you can explain your reasoning.

When people start, and in your case, continue, to use personal attacks and completely made up stories one thing is certain; whatever argument they may have had they have lost.

Jon, I double the recommended perennial dosage. And I tank mixed to double the percentage of triclopyr listed on the roundup poison ivy killer. I add ammonium sulphate, then add glyphosate from a 50% glyphosate concentrate, add triclopyr, then mix in a surfactant.

http://www.herbicide-adjuvants.com/adjuvants/db-labels/429.pdf

And no, I never said HVX lives in plain soil. You read into things too much, seemingly just to start an argument. Also, how in the world would I post a link detailing the roundup use in my farm operation, or my knowledge of hard to kill weeds? You are sharing your experience, but somehow nobody else's experience means anything, and a wikipedia link or some other link can explain it all...

Well, I have no idea what you sprayed or how well you sprayed. Based on the results with (2) 2% sprayings I would say it is not that difficult. Using 10% for perennials is quicker and 18%, poison ivy is killing it quickly.

Saying it died down and then regrew goes against how glyphosate works. it does not burn foliage, it enters the entire system of a plant and disrupts the enzymes and kills it if done properly and with the right strength. Killing only the foliage

If you never said that HVX survives in 'soil' then what exactly did you argue about for so long. This Round Up only kills foliage is your brand new argument. You are being completely disingenuous and you know it. You said HVX lives in dead leaves, then said that was foolish. You refuted the statement 'HVX is not known to be spread in soil.' Link You have repeated time and time again ' Soil----------------- was found to remain infective for at least two years.' dishonestly omitting 'with HVX plant debris and root material' Link

You are now shifting gears and evidently want everyone to forget this argument and you know want to say that you have treated hostas with 20% glyphosate and they re-emerged the next spring defying how glyphosate works and now have a new claim that you used a 20% concentration of glyphosate on a field of hostas for some unknown reason and they have some survival mechanism that kept them alive. I would like to see some proof of this. Surely this would have been written up on your forum ????? Also since you say you tank sprayed these hostas, I'm sure you didn't paint them top and bottom as I have done on test specimens 2 & 3. Apples and oranges.

I'm sorry, we will all wait and see how this test works out. If the hostas are dead and I leave one clump over the winter and some do magically come back then you can be sure of one thing; I will be the first to honestly disclose it.

Until then I am not interested in listening to anything you don't have proof of.

Jon, I will continue to disagree with your backyard experiment on killing hosta for the sole purpose of safely disposing of HVX infected plants, when you arent even using HVX infected plants ... for as long as you keep sharing its inconclusive reports as fact. Apparently you are so self important(?) in this that you haven't read what my dispute actually is, when I have shared it with you more then once. As I am the one who suggested you conduct a controlled study to begin with... But despite all your scientific copy/paste, you don;t seem to want to roll with the AHS folks with your concrete proof and instead just show us pictures of withered hosta. Not the same thing, not even close. So until then, with your opinion comes my opinion...and anyone else's you want to dismiss, lol. Copy and paste all you want because your results of *it looks dead so it must be dead so it must be ineffective*, is clearly not scientific but presumptuous based off what Monsanto says and what you believe to be true and that is biased. Well yanno, there are plenty of big stakes lawsuits and class action cases indicating (based off of controlled studies) Monsanto doesn't always tell the truth on glyphosate.

As far as personal attacks and trolling... Until you called me a troll, I have never been called a name or had issue from anyone here... ever!! I have never called anyone a name, either... excluding your mistaken accusation. 10 years I have been here without so much as a tiff... can you say the same? nope! I guess, if that makes me a troll in your book, so be it.

and we wonder why we have little hope of becoming a type I civilization ...

Sorry guys, I'm just wondering what all those herbicides will do to people...it is poison...think about it please...can't help,Jon, I'm a longtime Greenpeace member :-)

I didn't want to get into that part of it Karin because i didnt want to distract my self or anyone else from the actual topic ... but I wholeheartedly agree. I no longer use pesticides as I grow my food on the same land I landscape. I can put a shovel in my yard anywhere but the driveway and find worms. We border a mill pond that feeds a stream that brings an abundance of wildlife from monarch butterflies to deer to eagles. Having used roundup freely in the past, not only is there a huge margin for human error, the findings in the last 15 plus years are alarming, to say the least.

smorz 'you arent even using HVX infected plants' For the umpteenth time HVX cannot live in dead hostas, period. What about this do you not understand or are you simply not wanting to understand?

'you haven't read what my dispute actually is' For the umpteenth time HVX cannot live in dead hostas, period.

'As I am the one who suggested you conduct a controlled study to begin with... ' Gee, since I started the experiment before you posted on it I thought that I would control my own experiment as I wanted. Silly me for not waiting until you decided to join in.

'But despite all your scientific copy/paste' otherwise known as facts.

*it looks dead so it must be dead' I haven't said anything was dead except unsubstantiated pronouncements.

'not scientific but presumptuous based off what Monsanto says and what you believe to be true and that is biased.' Try educating yourself and READ what the USDA says about glyphosate. Maybe, since it would go against your completely unsubstantiated ideas you would prefer to stay in your safe zone and are not inclined to LEARN the facts. I would link the 'scientific cut and paste, but you seem to disdain science.

'10 years I have been here without so much as a tiff...' if two people agree all the time one of them is unnecessary.

Smorz, your post is long on rhetoric and devoid of any facts that support your position.

Have a nice weekend,

Jon

'I'm just wondering what all those herbicides will do to people...it is poison...'

It is poison for plants, however there is no evidence of any animal ever being harmed when used according to directions. It is the safest least toxic of all herbicides and if you want to ban it then many other 'organic' herbicides many times more toxic should be banned first. Also, figure out how you expect to keep billions of people in the world from starving and billions more from hunger without modern farming techniques.

'i didnt want to distract my self or anyone else from the actual topic ... '

....The actual topic is how (or can) hostas be effectively killed as a safe effective way to prevent spread of HVX. Now if you could simply confine yourself to that and resist the temptation to reduce your postings to personal attacks devoid of any similarity to provable facts, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you.

"and we wonder why we have little hope of becoming a type I civilization ..."

Because of derogatory senseless comments like yours! You have absolutely nothing to say yet you say it anyway actually lowering the level of discourse. Consider the arrogance in your brief pointless comment: "we" - you anointed yourself spokesman for some elitist group? You actually categorize civilization into different levels and bemoan that we haven't achieved your ideal nirvana!!! Yeah, if we could only' terminate, outlaw, exterminate the likes of jon's viewpoint and opinions, oh, what a wonderful world this would be. Thank the lord for the 2nd amendment protecting the 1st.

Thank you gardencool for your remarks. Well said. 'They' see no need for any references, decry any proof from universities, the FDA and scientific proof from government agencies as 'biased' or 'copy/paste', demand control of someone else's experiment to add conditions which they cannot explain any need for, misconstrue what I have said and try to put words in my mouth, pretend there is some hidden proof in the AHS research and yet (because of their aversion to providing proof of what they say or any links to anything) they insist that I must simply accept their pontifications without any proof whatsoever. They pretend to be above the need to provide any proof of what they say and accuse others of not understanding when they don't. I understand exactly, your theory is baloney. Sorry to use non-reference, non-scientific, non-cut / paste, but this is obviously what you prefer.

Somehow they have appointed themselves as an inquisition that has no need to prove what they say as everything they pompously spout is gospel and it is heresy to try and extract scientific proof of what they say.

As a last resort they offer that they have never argued with anyone else on the forum as a reason that I should accept the ideas they put forward without proof.

After posting twenty or so references to prove what I am saying and not one single solitary factual quote or link to anything they claim, I am expected to fall in line with their flawed logic and if I don't then I am a troll (trolling my own post), get money from Monsanto (I wonder what being pompously wrong all the time pays).

I will continue with my experiment and if anyone doesn't like what I am doing or cannot provide a link to the, frankly ridiculous, theories they keep pushing then I would ask them not to comment on my posts and don't even read them because dull people repeating themselves all the time are tedious to those who want to learn something.

Thank you,

Jon

Since this is a discussion about the effects of roundup on a hosta I shared my personal knowledge and experience using the product. I will see if I can find a link on the internet where I have also shared my personal knowledge and experience, if that's what you want.

As for the other links you posted above, yes, it says in there that HVX can remain infective in soil so they recommend you don't ever plant a hosta in the same soil where you took out an infected plant. And yes, it if from infectious debris. It wouldn't come from anything else but debris.

My long standing argument is that spraying roundup on a hosta and leaving it in the garden leaves a lot of debris and that debris could be infectious. Even if the crown is dead there is no guarantee that bits of the roots are devoid of infectious virus particles.

When you first started pushing this you told someone they could spray the hosta and replant within the corpse in a few weeks. I said you were wrong, quoted the HVX research, suggested that hostas don't die that easily from roundup, and that's when the back and forth started.

My alternative to leaving a spot bare from a hosta was to dig out the entire root zone, making sure you get all the debris. Once that soil is gone you could then plant a new hosta in that spot with fresh soil. I never once said that you would remove all plants, all soil, and then leave it devoid of hostas. I did not say that, so I don't know why you said that I did. For you to make up things that I supposedly said, for example I never said HVX was living in dead leaves yet you repeat that over and over, is rather bizarre to me. I also did not say that I sprayed an entire field of hostas, yet you will probably start saying that now and imply that something fishy was going on for me to do so.

"HVX can remain infective in soil" is the same deceptive corruption of the exact quotes:

"it was observed that virus-free hostas became infected with HVX when planted in the same location where an HVX-infected plant had previously been growing."

and, "Soil with HVX plant debris and root material was found to remain infective for at least two years.

Dr Lock hart's research

How many times are you going to misquote the research? This what I mean by some people thinking if you tell a lie often enough you will get someone to believe it.

"My long standing argument is that spraying roundup on a hosta and leaving it in the garden leaves a lot of debris and that debris could be infectious."

Scientists long standing (50 years of studies) have shown that glyphosate disrupts plant enzymes in the entire plant equally and if plants (with a very rare grass and GMO modified crops) are properly sprayed with the correct strength no plant other than those I mentioned are immune. If you didn't spray correctly, provide adequate coverage, sprayed on a windy day, sprayed dust covered plants, etc. your spraying would not be effective.

My experiment, which completely covered every single leaf of the test hostas top and bottom with various strengths obviously did two things:

1- It used identifiable strengths of glyphosate

2- all surfaces of the leaves were covered 100% which at the very least doubles the surface area and the area of absorption. My observation was that the underside of the leaves absorbed the liquid far more quickly. I don't have any way to quantify how much more, but it was evident.

"Once that soil is gone you could then plant a new hosta in that spot with fresh soil."

Since you or your associate have had all the previous comments removed I cannot give a link, but anyone who has followed this closely knows that you said that hostas should be dug up immediately along with all nearby hostas and hostas should never be replanted in the area. I'm sure you have repeated this many times on your own forum and on this forum.

'I never said HVX was living in dead leaves yet you repeat that over and over, is rather bizarre to me.'

Once again you said this, later said it was 'foolish' and then when anyone entered the conversation with anything supportive of your contention (which you attempted to continue in this post by for at least the tenth time dishonestly omitting full quotes) you kept repeating the same incorrect thought. Once again anyone paying attention and is honest will remember.

I am not interested in any anecdotal stories you may produce or invent about the experiences of others.

I do not need or want any advice from you on how to conduct the test.

I do not enjoy having to disprove you all the time and I'm sure you cannot enjoy it, so why don't you simply stop commenting on my posts and see what the results are instead of trying to rewrite history and present yourself as an advisor and a judge of what I am doing. It is very annoying, doesn't add anything to the conversation and your continuous distortions are damaging to you. This was never my intention and still isn't, your wounded pride is causing you great self-inflicted damage to your reputation.

Link to previous discussions

HVX was found to spread in soil - you don't need to wound the hosta for it to happen either. Just plant it. HVX can also spread in water during power washing. ctopher_mi June 11

HVX was found to spread in soil - you don't need to wound the hosta for it to happen either. ctopher_mi June 11

That makes it one of the most stable plant viruses outside of the host. It remains infective for three weeks exposed to air, 9 weeks in dormant plant material, and years in the garden soil post hosta removal. ctopher_mi June 11

Can it spread in soil by growing a hosta in the same soil where an HVX infected hosta was growing? Yes. The studies proved it was possible. ctopher_mi June 11

Many different viruses can remain infective and in a dormant state even outside a host. ctopher_mi June 11

Jon, you liked mybrownthumb's post about how viruses will survive outside the host. Did you read it? It explains how a virus can survive without a host. Pieter also referenced the HVX research report that I have repeatedly referenced, and given you links in the past, that support what I have tried to educate you about. ctopher_mi June 11

Soil that at one time contained HVX infected plants can still infect another hosta planted into the same soil. It says that in the research. No wounding is necessary of the newly planted hosta. It may take years, but it still has the potential to become infected. ctopher_mi June 11

Well I tried, but sorry Jon, you are really wrong about these things, and people are believing you. I don't understand why you continue to disagree with what is very clearly written in the research. It does not say the things you think it says. It says that the assumptions, which you think are truths, were not correct based on the research.

The research does NOT say that HVX is spread only by wounding... It absolutely does not say that. ctopher_mi June 11

HVX doesn't replicate in soil. It remains in a dormant state until a living host comes along, and then it infects and replicates within the host plant. That is the information that was shown above to you, and you liked it.

HVX is highly stable outside the host, and that was a big surprise as found in the research. ctopher_mi June 11

But Jon, the research did state that once you dig up a hosta, that same spot will remain contaminated, and the research showed that the garden location remains contaminated for years after the hosta was removed. That's why the report states that you should not replant a hosta in that same location. There is no live plant involved, it is the contaminated location in the garden we are talking about.

The problem with your understanding is that you are confused by what is a "living" and replicating virus versus a virus being infectious. ctopher_mi June 11

A virus can go into a dormant state while outside the host, just waiting for a new host to come along. This information was shared above to you as well, and you dispute it.

Hosta Virus X is extremely stable and long lived outside of the host. So you can have rotting roots out in the garden that once had replicating HVX inside them that are still infectious. The research proved this, buy you completely refute what the research showed. ctopher_mi June 11

This statement: "HVX is not known to be spread in soil. HVX is transmitted only by plant division (vegetative propagation) and by contact involving surface wounding. " Dr. Lockhart. Was the original thinking on HVX that Dr. Lockhart disproved in his own research, and he acknowledges this. We all dos. This statement was under the things that were ASSUMED BEFORE THE RESEARCH STARTED. This was not the result. ctopher_mi June 11

I'm not sure it matters at this point, because I think overall people reading this completely understand the matter now. It is those people who might be swayed in the future by Jon's rhetoric in new posts without the rest of us helping to further explain and educate them on the subject. ctopher_mi June 11

It seems I was lucky enough to find this before the thought police got around to having it deleted. Most of the other postings that prove my point have been deleted, however, these are more than enough proof.

Jon

Jon, I would like to point out that you cannot post a link to a study that shows hosta can be killed by glyphosate.

James Rahe, professor Emeritus Simon Fraser University

Glyphosate is non-selective

Activity is mainly in the roots

Effects of sub-lethal doses appear a year after dosing and persist for two or more years

Kathy there is no known plant other than one grass and genetically modified crops that is immune to being killed by glyphosate. Yes, my test isn't finished and there is zero possibility that if I show glyphosate kills hostas that it will stop some from carping about how it is impossible.

The only way to really prove it would be with a scanning electron microscope to search for live cells and even that wouldn't silence the skeptics.

I feel that since glyphosate works through the root system there is zero reason to suspect that the roots (where glyphosate activity works to kill a plant) would be alive when the leaves and crown are obviously dead.

The 'from the root' action is perfectly logical as glyphosate interferes with the enzymes that plants use to get their nutrition and roots are obviously where plants get nutrition. It is only by absorption into a plants system and travel by sap that glyphosate does its damage and kills plants. It is the roots that are affected, which belies the theory some have put forward that glyphosate kills only the leaves.

Killing any plant is dose and application dependent. It is obvious to me that the test hostas are dying. One test sure looks almost completely dead with a double 2% dose which is 60% below the dosage recommended for perennials.

The 10% and 18% doses are logically and actually working far quicker. I don't see any chance they won't be killed 'to the root' or more correctly 'from the root' as Professor Rahe explains in is presentation.

It is a good presentation as it explains a lot about how glyphosate works so that a layman (oops layperson) like me can understand. If you read it you may still have questions about how my experiment will work out, but the more I learn, the more I am convinced it will kill the hostas.

I am learning a lot (and getting a lot of aggravation) from these discussions. I hope others will learn as well. I am sure you are learning along with me.

Jon

The link doesn't work.

This topic should be sprayed with glyphosate.....

Kathy, It didn't work for me...try http://brasil.ipni.net/ipniweb/region/brasil.nsf/e0f085ed5f091b1b852579000057902e/98447be1ec680f2083257ae100698fe6/$FILE/Palestra%20James%20Rahe.pdf

That works

Gag and Babka, from the band of trolls, never seem to have anything intelligent to say. If you can't be intelligent then you could at least try to funny or at least original....if you can.

Oh and I have saved these remarks by Wilson on my own computer, so don't waste your time imploring anyone to delete them. They are immortal.

I can't....but do I need to post a link to prove that I can't ?

No, you have proven your lack of wit and inability to provide any useful information, no one could question that. You will probably get your usual like from Babka....lucky you! :-{

Perfect, thanks for the clarification.

p.s. - I've never had to provide any info because I've never actually disagreed with you or the science.

When you don't even get a like from Babka it is time to give it up.

I count 14 incorrect statements in the June 11 exchange alone. Statements that are now denied. Now this person expects that he should dictate my experiment and be the judge of any results. I have had my intelligence insulted and I have been attacked for simply trying to do a simple experiment.

Now when the facts are indisputable I am expected to accept that all this never happened as if I imagined what was said. Entire posts and exchanges have been purged and claims made over and over again are now said to have never been uttered.

It was never my intention to harm anyone's reputation. All I did was present facts and because this disagreed with mistakenly held incorrect ideas I was disparaged and told I had a comprehension problem.

Time and time again I provided references to prove what I was saying. Providing proof actually seems to be a negative to some people.

There is a lot of crow to be eaten here, but not by me. When I am wrong, I admit it and move on; others obviously don't have the same personality. Anyone who fails to see what has happened here and still disagrees with my proposition is being willfully ignorant of the facts.

Jon

Thanks for sharing what I actually said instead of making things up. Though the context of the discussion is missing by posting snippets I think it is still enough for people to get the gist of it.

And thank you for sharing your experience with spraying hostas with roundup, and then with the addition of a second chemical, as it shows it appears to be more difficult to kill a hosta than you thought.

I left the link to the entire posting so that you or anyone else can see the context for themselves and can judge what you said then and what you have said in this post. I know you abhor posting links it seems to get in the way of things when your story changes constantly.

- I never added any additional chemical.

- I am not having any difficulty at all killing hostas with appropriate strength glyphosate and complete foliar coverage.

- It seems you are having a problem with your own words when you don't get a chance to wipe them out.

You cannot produce one thing that I have made up. I have produced 11 direct quotes from you that are still available that are 180 degrees around from what you are saying today.

If I were you I would stop now as you are digging a pretty big hole for yourself as you continue.

ctopher_mi

And no, I never said HVX lives in plain soil. You read into things too much,

This post.

Quotes from June 11. The only post that has not been removed at the request of Babka....or so she says.

HVX was found to spread in soil - you don't need to wound the hosta for it to happen either. Just plant it. HVX can also spread in water during power washing. ctopher_mi June 11

HVX was found to spread in soil - you don't need to wound the hosta for it to happen either. ctopher_mi June 11

That makes it one of the most stable plant viruses outside of the host. It remains infective for three weeks exposed to air, 9 weeks in dormant plant material, and years in the garden soil post hosta removal. ctopher_mi June 11

Can it spread in soil by growing a hosta in the same soil where an HVX infected hosta was growing? Yes. The studies proved it was possible. ctopher_mi June 11

Many different viruses can remain infective and in a dormant state even outside a host. ctopher_mi June 11

Jon, you liked mybrownthumb's post about how viruses will survive outside the host. Did you read it? It explains how a virus can survive without a host. Pieter also referenced the HVX research report that I have repeatedly referenced, and given you links in the past, that support what I have tried to educate you about. ctopher_mi June 11

Soil that at one time contained HVX infected plants can still infect another hosta planted into the same soil. It says that in the research. No wounding is necessary of the newly planted hosta. It may take years, but it still has the potential to become infected. ctopher_mi June 11

Well I tried, but sorry Jon, you are really wrong about these things, and people are believing you. I don't understand why you continue to disagree with what is very clearly written in the research. It does not say the things you think it says. It says that the assumptions, which you think are truths, were not correct based on the research.

The research does NOT say that HVX is spread only by wounding... It absolutely does not say that. ctopher_mi June 11

HVX doesn't replicate in soil. It remains in a dormant state until a living host comes along, and then it infects and replicates within the host plant. That is the information that was shown above to you, and you liked it.

HVX is highly stable outside the host, and that was a big surprise as found in the research. ctopher_mi June 11

But Jon, the research did state that once you dig up a hosta, that same spot will remain contaminated, and the research showed that the garden location remains contaminated for years after the hosta was removed. That's why the report states that you should not replant a hosta in that same location. There is no live plant involved, it is the contaminated location in the garden we are talking about.

The problem with your understanding is that you are confused by what is a "living" and replicating virus versus a virus being infectious. ctopher_mi June 11

A virus can go into a dormant state while outside the host, just waiting for a new host to come along. This information was shared above to you as well, and you dispute it.

Hosta Virus X is extremely stable and long lived outside of the host. So you can have rotting roots out in the garden that once had replicating HVX inside them that are still infectious. The research proved this, buy you completely refute what the research showed. ctopher_mi June 11

This statement: "HVX is not known to be spread in soil. HVX is transmitted only by plant division (vegetative propagation) and by contact involving surface wounding. " Dr. Lockhart. Was the original thinking on HVX that Dr. Lockhart disproved in his own research, and he acknowledges this. We all dos. This statement was under the things that were ASSUMED BEFORE THE RESEARCH STARTED. This was not the result. ctopher_mi June 11

It seems unbelievable how anyone could keep saying things that are so easily disproven over and over and over again; even in the same thread, hoping that everyone has amnesia.