September is the start of our second good growing season in Florida. If we're lucky we won't have a frost until the end of December.

Sam's September roses are very nice

Straw - it's a beauty - but I can't stand the smell of apples in roses. I've given away roses that I love, because of the scent. LOL

Lovely roses, Kelly!

We had hail again, thus ruining (probably) the remainder of the season of roses. We had 4 bouts of hail today. I think that puts our grand total up to 11 attacks of hail. I was talking to a friend, and he said that at his place there's only been one hail storm. Why do I live here??

Carol

Wow, no frost until December! We usually get frost this month, snow sometimes in October but for sure by november. How about you Carol? I have to get out this weekend to gather my basil because the frost is coming and then it will be destroyed. ..going to make pesto.

rosecanadian, I think maybe apple blossom smell is different to apple smell. Kelly, are your hands super tiny or are your roses huge! I love the Nahema and everyone elses posts.The anemones are lovely. I only have anemone blanda (wood anemone) and they finished a while ago. I feel you BS pain after all our rain.... 6" in 2 hours a week ago and more again tonight. I don't think they'll recover this year. I'm so bummed.

Kelly - we vary a lot. What I'm concerned about is when we get a killing frost, I have to have my roses in the garage by then (-6C). That usually happens in October or sometimes early November. I don't really enjoy the roses, because they have no fragrance, and very few blooms - plus it's too cold outside to really care about them. What a great idea - grow basil and make pesto!! Well done!

Vaporvac - We're kind of the same - we're getting lots of rain coming and we've had recent hail. I am so sick of hail.

Carol

Kelly,

Thanks for sharing your pictures. That Nahema rose is a winner. I especially like that it is bred by G. Delbard and Heritage is a parent.

Kelly, your roses are stunning, specially Nahema, Jubilee Celebration and Abe Derby. That is the biggest Nahema bloom I have ever seen (I am assuming your hands are of average size). I am sure the fragrance would be delightful. My Nahema has produced medium sized blooms so far..... nothing compared to this size.

Thanks for the wonderful pics

Kelly: your pics. are fantastic. Really like the deep-pink color in Abraham Darby, JB, and your William Morris look great. I almost killed my WM with silly experiments. I really should go back to what I did right, than experiment with new stuff (Maca powder, new fertilizers, herbs, etc.). Not until Khalid posts his onw-root bush-shot of WM that I realize I can't make it bushy.

Austin roses can be really wimpy as own-roots in its 1st year. I was really disgusted with my own-root Crown Princess the 1st year (2 lousy blooms), then it exploded the 2nd & 3rd & 4th.

Carol: I'll take hail over my swarm of mosquitos anytime. Went out few minutes to pick tomatoes and got bitten immediately. I don't even go into my garden in Sept., unless I use mosquito-spray, including my clothes (they bite through my shirt). Clay retains water well, plus the wet trees ...

I don't like green apple scent in roses, but really like "apple-blossoms" scent in Romantica Meilland Sweet Promise 2004. Apple-blossoms scent is pure heaven, I have a crabapple tree just to inhale its delightful blossoms during spring.

Here's Heritage in September.

Oh lovely. Was about to sleep and would sure have nice dreams. Thanks Sam

Royal Jubilee

Lady ashe

unknown austin-tiny

summer sun

south Africa with strawberries taking over Below

Volunteer pumpkins taking over my arbor. I see I captured my dog's rear end in this one. How flattering.

Those are all my favorite roses. Heaven on Earth, Scepter'd Isle , Windermere....Named after the Lake in Britain. And Nahema too.

I wrap Heritage in leaves from the magnolia tree corralled in by the trellises from Viking Queen(which I lay down in leaves corralled by the Adirondacks chairs with Elm leaves.) after New year's. Zero dieback. 6 feet high.

Kelly,. September Roses are better than June roses. They are fewer , but I can appreciate them more. It makes sense that you would have Windermere because you live in the land of 10000 Lakes.

Viking Queen is the best smelly rose.

Straw - you're right. Mosquitos are more than annoying. Fortunately, we don't get mosquitos here. I wasn't bit all summer, and last summer I think I was bitten twice. So yes, we have lots to be thankful for here. And I can see the difference now between apple blossoms and apple scent. :)

Lots of gorgeous roses!!! Thanks everyone!!

Carol

Look at my organic pesticide teammate. This guy made a home on my Champlain rose.

In the regular rose forum they actually have discussion about how to control insects, but it has been already taken care of by nature.

Beautiful pics. You really caught the web in all its beauty. I have a lot spiders on mine as well, but they don't seem to be affecting the cucumber beetle population yet. :( I'm downloading some pics so maybe I'll have something to share. Although they won't compare to the beauties shown here, they still provide me with endless pleasure.

Here is a flower from one of my little Viking Queens. I adore this rose and can't wait until she grows a bit so I won't have to kneel to say hello and smell her. You're right Samuel, the fragrance is lovely. I'm also showing Sugar Moon whose fragrance may even surpass that of VQ. Her beauty is ethereal yet strong with petals like a camellia. Since planting her in the ground with morning sun, she's exploding in growth. Unexpectedly, her buds are now shaded pale green and her petals tinged with red as this picture shows. She didn't do this in all day sun. She can really take the heat and still put out the fragrance.

Next, is Munstead Wood already feeling its oats and sending out tall canes. What can I say? I love this incredibly fragranced blooming machine. Lastly, is OR Summer Romance, one of the few blooms I've seen, but she was only a teeny gal. in May so I'll cut her some slack. Lovely fragrance and blooms that LAST.Hope you've enjoyed seeing my September blooms as much as I've enjoyed seeing yours. :)

Wow, Sam!!! We just don't see spider web's like that here. I do have some spider web's on mine - but they're much smaller. How beautiful!!

Vaporvac - Love all your fragrant beauties!!

Carol

Straw: thank you for sharing so much about rose chemistry. I am a physician and I find caring for roses to be like caring for patients except I lack understanding of what is might be ailing them. I only started gardening last year but, I have learned so much from reading various posts of yours.

I find the most difficult part is figuring out whether the rose prefers acidic or alkaline soil. Your comment above about glossy foliage being a sign that the plant prefers alkaline soil. Does that apply to Kordes roses or just Meillands?

Aileen

Besides not spraying with pesticides, what can be done to encourage the spiders that eat rose pests?

In my particular case in this picture this Champlain rose had bugs. I put homemade compost around the rose in summer. It took a while for the spider webs to be built in a place they were successful at catching. I see the spider in the soil. This rose is coming back to health and all I did was give it compost and feed the soil. I feed soil. Soil has the life. Soil feeds the plants.

Straw , Khalid and I have each have a few different compost methods in our yards. We have been discussing in the compost thread. http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3959714/homemade-rose-compost-and-compost-tea?n=134

Bob Cannard makes a comment about where to get the soil biology from.

at the 55 minutes in the Video of Bob Cannard farm he mentions how he gets compost from all around. https://youtu.be/myc8jBiGaME

Fall is the time to start the compost. I have fun going around to collect the material. Right now I am collecting coffee grounds. And yard waste too.

My favorite is the Ted Talk Mike McGrath video on YouTube shredding fall leaves.

Hi totoro z7 MD (Aileen): Very glad to have you, a physician, in Organic Rose forum. Decades ago I applied to physician assistant program (Grand Valley State, MI, where I got my B.S. in Computer Science). They told me to re-take Human Anatomy with real cadavers before they accept me. The Human Anatomy class I took was with plastic models. Since I was married in Chicagoland, I chose staying with husband than going for a career. No regrets, having a child is more precious than any career. There's enough doctors in my family, my 3 siblings are M.D's

I hope my nephew choose physician assistant career. His Dad is a doctor, but my nephew is hesitant about the long education & commitment of being an M.D. Both in medicine and rose-growing, experience and environmental/genetical differences count more than strict theories.

Per your question: "I find the most difficult part is figuring out whether the rose prefers acidic or alkaline soil. Your comment above about glossy foliage being a sign that the plant prefers alkaline soil. Does that apply to Kordes roses or just Meillands? Aileen".

That applies to French Meilland roses only. French Meilland and Romantica roses are bred in southern France, mostly alkaline soil with hot summers. The high calcium and high pH of alkaline soil enable roses to withstand hot summers better. In the summer I tested lowering my pH 9 tap water, with used lemons or vinegar, and I watched roses' leaves become thinner and wilt immediately in hot sun.

Own-root Kordes roses fall into 2 categories: The THICK and glossy foliage like Flower Carpet like alkalinity, its thick leaves make it mildew and blackspot-resistant. Thus THICK and glossy Kordes leaves for alkaline soil. This type of Kordes have very aggressive root that secrete plenty of acid for rock-hard clay, and can digest rock-hard minerals.

Dr. Huey rootstock is also an aggressive root that prefer alkaline clay. My brother, M.D. in emergency medicine, put white-limestone rocks on top of his roses grafted on Dr. Huey in MI, and they are healthy. Lime raises the pH and supplies calcium.

The 2nd category of own-root Kordes roses become disease-resistant by SECRETING less acid at root-level, such as Kordes Deep Purple rose, leaves are NOT glossy, and HATE my alkaline soil, can't even secrete acid for hard clay, and roots are so wimpy that it can only go through fluffy potting soil, or loose sand. California folks with alkaline clay/alkaline tap water complain about Kordes roses as being stingy, can't secrete enough acid for blooming.

Other roses in the category of staying healthy by secreting less acid at root level: Heritage, Nahema, Kordes Barcelona (dull leaves, mildew prone) .. these stay healthy by producing less acid at root-level, thus need fluffy & loamy soil, soluble fertilizer, with tons of acidic rain. I put Kordes Barcelona right below my rain-spout, it practically drowns in acidic rain water, but healthy. These dull-leaves, mildew prone roses are best in fluffy soil with tons of rain.

Multiflora-rootstock is in this category: secrete less acid, thus can handle acidic rain, but need fluffy and loamy soil, and does best "spoon-fed" with liquid soluble fertilizer.

totoro Z7b MD Besides not spraying with pesticides, what can be done to encourage the spiders that eat rose pests?

Answer: There are many beneficial insects that eat pests, and the plants which host these beneficial insects. I once spent hours researching on these, and some quick info. from my head:

The best way to control rose pests is to use slow-released organic fertilizer. One year my kid dumped tons of NPK 10-10-10 on my tomato garden, and that's the only year we had tomato hornworm. But other 20+ years of growing tomato using organics, I never have fat green worms. My neighbor who uses chemical MG-soluble gets lots of those worms and the hawk moths that breed them.

For aphids control in spring: slow-release organics like alfalfa NPK 2-1-2, or chicken manure NPK 5-3-2 is best. Green lacewings and ladybugs give birth to "aphid lions", which consume hundreds of aphids per day. Dill, garlic chives, herbs, yarrows, wild flowers, and calendula attract both green lacewings and ladybugs.

For rose slugs (sawfly larvae) and thrips control, there are annual flowers which attract predator wasps, such as marigolds.

In my experience, my vote goes to marigolds to attract wasps which feast on thrips and sawfly larvae (rose-slugs). Also many votes to dill, I had seen a frog, a praying mantis, green lacewings, plus ladybugs in my dill patch. Also to garlic chives to attract beneficial wasps and bees, but garlic chives is very invasive, but great for making pot-stickers.

For ladybugs, my vote go to pink yarrow to attract ladybugs. After killing all the pink yarrow in my garden, I have much less ladybugs .. before that it was a major infestation of ladybugs, which is a beneficial insect which feasts on aphids, scale bugs, and other garden pests.

My concern about spiders is they eat any insects, including beneficial ones.

Kelly: Your Demes de chenonceau is simply gorgeous. I have never seen this rose before but it looks fabulous. All your roses are great, so healthy and blooming so well. Is your Sir John Betjamin fragrant?

Sam: Great photos. Your compost tea sprays seem to have worked very well. The foliage of your roses is so healthy. BTW, great photo of spider web. I have so many of them in my garden. If the web is restricted to one bush it's nice but when it is between the two bushes then it is hard to move between the bushes and the web strings cling to ones clothing. It happens to me every morning but I try not to destroy the webs as much as I can.

Straw wrote: "My concern about spiders is they eat any insects, including beneficial ones."

My view on this.... "let the nature work. Nature knows fully well how best to maintain balance." Our knowledge of how nature works is still incomplete so I consider it best not to interfere with it and just try to provide an environment that allows nature to function. Balance is the key and nature knows how to maintain it. I also sometimes feel that spiders eat ladybirds and other beneficial insects too but then I have also observed over the past year or so that bushes that had spider webs were relatively free of pests as compared to others that did not have spiders. So whatever happened, I don't have full knowledge of it but it worked well. BTW, spider itself is a beneficial insect and a predator and in nature's law, it is the top predator that stays..... rest will have to go.

best regards

Thanks so much for explaining about the Kordes leaves and pests. I do try to grow garlic chives and dill. I did not realize that garlic chives were invasive and I had hoped to eat them. I even bought lady bug larvae once, but maybe I should try pink yarrow too.

I am mostly organic, but I need to stop using soluble Miracle Grow. I don't think I have the time or the space to do my own composting.

I no longer practice surgery and I would not really recommend medicine as profession unless the person really understood the current trends in the health care industry and government policies. I have a 2 year old and would choose family over career any day.

totoro, please don't let the compost police ie the rigid rules, keep you from making compost. If you have leaves or any yard waste and strong black plastic bags, you can make it.For many years, I didn't have interest in a pile and just put all my leaves in the black contractors bags and in Spring I had black gold. No need to shred, just add some water. I had to bag them anyway, so why not get something for my effort. I stored them in an out-of-view place.

Frankly, I now find piling all my leaves on a tarp and hauling them to the pile easiest of all as I don't turn or layer or add much else besides twigs. This year I do intend to add some other things like coffee and horse manure and try turning it, etc, but it's not necessary. Any homemade compost, full of worms and other goodness is better than none. Give it a try.

Vaporvac - so true!! Compost can be as easy as you want to it be. But it's good stuff regardless.

Carol

Kelly: Really appreciate your posting pics. with your nice hand. The blooms will be larger and more petals each year.

Vaporvac: You sold me on Sugar Moon and Summer Romance, very healthy & glossy foliage.

Khalid: I love your logic on spiders. Thank you !!

Totoro (Aileen): If my child is 2-year old again, I would chose her over roses anytime. Quick tips to grow healthy & big blooms and save time for your most precious 2-year-old:

If you have Ace Hardware nearby, they sell odor-free chicken manure, big bag for $13. If you don't, then Charles' Compost (organic chicken manure & corn-cob) can be ordered from Amazon, it's $$, but safe & doesn't burn & doesn't need to be mixed with soil.

For the cheap chicken manure at NPK 5-3-2, that needs to be mixed with top soil, like Scott's top-soil (sold at Walmart for $2 per bag). I use a face-up garbage lid, mix 1 cup chicken manure with lots of top soil & other additives, then give one rose-bush half of that. Thus each rose bush gets 1/2 cup chicken manure, plus 1/4 cup lime (for blackspot-prone), or 1/4 cup of gypsum (for pale roses), plus 1/8 cup of sulfate of potash (Amazon sells that cheap).

The ratio and amount is VERY IMPORTANT. A lady once burned a dozen of her roses by fertilizing monthly with Mill's Magic NPK 6-5-1 (too high nitrogen can burn, so does chicken manure). I follow U. of Davis tissue analysis of best ratio in roses: equal amount of nitrogen to potassium, 1/2 calcium, and much less than 1/4 phosphorus.

The above treatment is done PRIOR to tons of rain: spring time April, heavy rain May & June, and rainy fall. Two applications for a dry year, and 4 times max for rainy years. Another lady killed a few rose bushes with monthly chicken manure. I play it safe, 3 times for my zone 5a short growing season.

During hot & dry summer stop that treatment, and use sulfate of potash & gypsum to fix alkaline-tap-water (equal sulfate of potash & gypsum pre-mix as powder) ... sprinkle less than 1 tablespoon per bush, and hose in at least 3 gallons of tap water.

Signs of over-fertilization: wilting in hot sun, leaves curl down.

too acidic: leaves curl up & thinner, and blackspots.

too alkaline: leaves twisted & crinkled (copper def), pale leaves.

potassium def: zero blooms, smaller blooms, thin & weak stems, and blackspots.

calcium def: less petals in blooms, stunt growth & short bush

nitrogen def: small leaves & pale lowest leaves, and less leaves

I don't follow the above regime for this year: too busy with 12+ roses in pots, plus rooting roses, plus bad hayfever .. quality and health of roses go down.

Here's some pics. to show the result of the above approach. Here's previous years' bouquet entitled Sept. bouquet, with the largest Evelyn bloom, at 4":

Below is previous years' picture entitled "Francis RB frost", stand for Francis Blaise right before frost in Oct. Perfect foliage.

Here's this year, 2016 Sept. 7, Double Delight (grafted on Dr. Huey). I dumped soil mixed with cracked corn (ran out of stinky chicken manure). The quality of bloom would be better (more petals) if I had followed my regime: It's bare-root-stick for $4 at Walmart this year.

Here's Radio Times blooms with chicken manure & sulfate of potash & lime mixed with Scott's top soil, pic. taken in Oct, 2011. Blooms were twice bigger & more petals than Radio Times now, without chicken manure & additives.

These were 1st-year own-root Radio Times & Mary's blooms bought 1/2 price early July 2011 from RU. First pic. taken Oct 2011, second pic. taken Nov. 2011:

My crazy need to experiment with new stuff, led me astray from what I did right years ago. Same with white bloom Mary Magdalene, really lousy now in 2016 with Alaska Pennington NPK 4-6-6 (blood meal, bone meal, sulfate of potash).

Chicken manure has zinc, copper, and boron.. anti-fungal trace elements for better blooms. I experimented with blood meal & gypsum & Jobes soluble NPK 5-2-3 with kelp this year, but I'm going back to chicken manure.

Found this pic. entitled "Nov. 2011 Radio" .. I'm going to apply the odor-free chicken manure tomorrow, hoping for better blooms in Oct.

Straw - Holy Toledo!!! Your Radio Times blooms are beyond stunning!!!! Oh my!!!!! Drool!! Swoon!!! and Gasp!!!!

Carol

I wish it was possible to take out the roses from pics..... your Radio Times is simply fabulous, Straw

Carol: you are a big blessing to all forums with your generous and kind spirit. Honestly my biggest contribution to forums is NOT my crazy experiments nor my extensive research, but my clicking "like" & support & complimenting others. Carol, you are a great role model in being positive & enthusiastic about rose-growing.

A note on Ace Hardware, they stock high quality stuff, like that $13 big bag of no odor & well composted chicken manure. Ace Hardware has the best bagged top soil, now on sale for $1.33 .. I'm going back for more to winterize my roses. Ace's top soil is better than Scott's bagged top soil ($2). It's fluffier, blacker (more woodash), plus the growth is better than chemical nitrogen,

One year there's some bare-spots on my lawn, so I bought Ace-grass-seeds, plus Ace-top soil to sprinkle on top. The grass became dark-green, and twice taller & denser than my old grass, it didn't match with my old grass. I told husband that Ace grass seeds is different from my old lawn, but husband insisted that it will even out next year. Yes it did, after frequent rain to leach out that fertile top-soil, the new grass even out with the old grass.

I had horrible experience with Menards' bagged cow manure (both with roses and tomatoes) ... wrote plenty on that. Walmart has bagged humus & manure, I winterized roses with that, not impressed with its mostly cow manure & chopped leaves. Ace Hardware sells bagged cow manure .. I put that inside Golden Celebration, and it immediately broke out in blackspots just like others' bagged cow manure: too much quick lime (bad stuff), antibiotics, salt, and phosphorus.

Bagged top soil is rich in minerals, plus they add wood-ash with many anti-fungal trace-elements.

Thank you Straw for your succinct guide to nutrient deficiency. I think I should also buy a soil testing kit from Lowe's as you had recommended on a former post. I will definitely check out my local Ace Hardware. I had also experimented with kelp and bone meal this year, but from another one of your posts I learned that I also need to watch how much salt some of the organic products contain. So far Alfalfa meal seems a safe approach.

Everyone's flowers are so lovely, thank you for sharing.

Aileen

Aileen: Kelp is great for large leaves & some salt so spirulina is better, bone meal is high in sulfates (that burns), and can't be used at pH over 7. I burnt countless plants with bone meal, and with my experiments in potting soil: chicken manure beats bone meal as to phosphorus release. The chicken manure at Ace Hardware is "Coop-Poop" with NPK of 2-4-3, with 8% calcium, low in odor & well composted.

For nitrogen in spring, either alfalfa meal NPK 2-1-2 or blood meal NPK 12-0-0 can supplement chicken manure if you want roses to be taller. My roses are too tall with blood meal, so I'll stick with alfalfa meal's low-nitrogen.

I bought a soil-kit from Lowe's and it was a waste of time & gave me false result. Faster to get 7 to 8 leaves of red-cabbage from grocery store (sold by lb.), chop that up, and boil in 3 cups of DISTILLED WATER ($1 from grocery store). Boil for 10 min, then save the juice to test up to 15 samples, from potting soil, to alfalfa meal, to your tap water, plus 1 Tablespoon of soil from different locations in your garden.

The above test costs $2, $1 for distilled water, and $1 for red-cabbage leaves.

I use those small apple-sauce cups, or small yogurt cups for each soil samples. I use 1/2 tablespoon of baking soda as pH 9 and 1 tablespoon of vinegar as pH 2.6, plus red-cabbage juice itself as pH 7. I put soil samples in those tiny cups, then pour the hot cabbage juice. I use a spoon to stir each soil sample well. Wait for 30 min, before reading the color on top.

Here's the procedure in detail, inside the link the pic. of test tubes is wrong ... they accidentally switched pH 7 with pH 8 for the test tubes. My soil is dark-blue, at pH 7.7, professionally tested by EarthCo.

Coffee grounds should be clear, it's a buffer. Most potting soil becomes clear solution, or neutral pH. Alfalfa meal reported pH is 5.8. Rain water pH is 5.6.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2132487/cheapest-way-to-test-soil-ph-using-red-cabbage?n=26

The below recent pic. from the internet is most accurate:

Oh Straw, thank you!!! I really appreciate you too!!!

Carol

After 30 min. of soil sample soaked in red-cabbage juice, if the above solution is cloudy: there's free lime (calcium), and it's a good sign. My healthiest rose is Tchaikovsky (not a trace of blackspot & lots of blooms) .. its soil sample is cloudy blue, pH 8, with plenty of calcium.

My sickest rose is Munstead Wood, at first I thought pale means too alkaline, but looking at the pH-nutrient-chart, there's both sulfur and nitrogen deficiencies at too acidic, causing paleness. Munstead Wood leaves are much thinner than when it was in neutral potting soil, which is a sign of too acidic.

I got soil samples from blackspotted roses both in pots, and in the ground, and those samples were either clear neutral, or clear pinkish acidic, rather than cloudy. Lime is known as the best buffer for acidic rain, and calcium is one of the anti-fungal nutrients.

I used red-cabbage to test the pH of Munstead Wood, and it's actually acidic when dug at the root-zone. I put too much acidic pine-bark & cracked corn, plus watered with acidic soluble. The sample became pinkish clear like alfalfa, clear means there's no free calcium to buffer acidic rain. Calcium is what makes the solution cloudy.

Prior to our recent week-long rain, I put gypsum (17% sulfur) on top of own-root Veteran's Honor, which I made pale with too-alkaline Azomite and pea-gravel, but I didn't put gypsum on Louise Este. Both are wimpy own-roots.

Today Veteran's Honor shot up in height, with 3 buds & healthy leaves. Louise Este came down with blackspot (topped with acidic alfalfa and cracked corn).

Veteran's Honor gets plenty of alkaline calcium from Azomite, plus free-calcium from gypsum, to produce healthy leaves & buds.

Constant rain leaches out calcium from Louise Este, so leaves became thinner & stems became weak, and dropped leaves from blackspot. My 2013 pots were blackspot-fest, thanks to my NOT putting gypsum in the poting soil.

Roses Unlimited instructions for the planting hole: 2 cups of organic fertilizer (or 2 cups alfalfa), 1 cup gypsum, 1 cup lime, 1/4 top soil & 1/4 clay & 1/4 peatmoss & 1/4 compost, 1 cup phosphate (or composted manure). The lime is to neutralize acidity of alfalfa & peatmoss, and the gypsum is for free-calcium.

To buffer acidic rain: 1/2 cup of alfalfa for sulfur & growth boost, 1/4 cup gypsum for wimpy roses OR 1/4 cup lime for heavy-bloomers, 1/2 cup chicken manure & 1/8 sulfate of potash, plus bagged soil to provide solid minerals.

Bagged top soil at local stores: varies with state: The East coast North Carolina bagged soil was tested with pH between 4 and 5 .. found that in a government report ... compared to Chicagoland bagged soil with higher pH than my pH 7.7 clay.

Below is a pic. of Radio Times when it was planted in Scott's bagged top soil with high-calcium woodash .. and it turned cloudy dark blue in red-cabbage juice, pH near 8. That was watered with my pH 9 tap-water (hard-water & high calcium).

Picture taken mid-Sept. 2012, before I moved it. It was fertilized with stinky chicken manure NPK 5-3-2, alfalfa meal NPK 2-1-2, plus topped with pH 8 composted horse manure with shell lime added by the stable. Total potassium: over 5. Total calcium: at least 3. Soil pH around 8. Leaves are very thick. When I moved it, I saw the root going deep down to the rock-hard clay below for nutrients.

Below is Munstead Wood when it was in neutral pH potting soil (clear in red-cabbage juice), after I applied gypsum (pH 6.8) which made it throw a 3 feet octopus cane.

Below Munstead Wood after planting in fixed clay. It's actually acidic at root-level, after I tested the pH with red-cabbage & distilled water. But it's at a well-drained spot, so it doesn't blackspot. Note the leaves curled up (too acidic), plus pale and THIN leaves. Sulfur deficiency occurs at very acidic level, plus less nitrogen.

I put too much pine-bark, plus acidic cracked corn (pH 4) to fix my alkaline clay. I once received bands from Burlington enclosed in pine-barks (not composted at pH below 5), and leaves got thin & pale & curled up like below.

Sulfur and nitrogen are both essential for dark-green healthy leaves, and both are less at pH below 5.6 (rain-water). Calcium & magnesium & phosphorus are less at pH below 5.6. Sulfur is supplied through decayed organics, or sulfate of potash (21% sulfur), or gypsum (17% sulfur).

Note at pH 8 (Radio Times), there's plenty of the major nutrients: magnesium, calcium, sulfur, potassium, phosphorus, and nitrogen, which contributed to healthy leaves in Sept.

Straw: Unfortunately my ace hardware does not have coop poop. Only Espoma chicken manure which I read mixed reviews about. I may try the chicken manure at the organic gardening site you posted in a different thread. Thanks for sharing the link.

Vaporvac: today I started a plastic bag for composting leaves as you suggested. I will see how it looks next year.

Distant drums

Hi Aileen (Totoro): Grass-clippings or leaves compost itself nicely in brown-bags. Neighbors put out paper-yard-waste (with leaves or grass clippings) .. I ask them for free. Normally I spread out fresh grass clippings on my garden, and husband complains that it stinks up the yard.

A month ago I got grass-clippings inside brown-yard-waste .. was too lazy to spread them, so I left them (tops fold-down). It rained tons, but the brown-bags kept the clippings dry. Yesterday I spread them, nicely composted, and no stinky smell (at least one-month old).

Decades ago my neighbor left her leaves inside brown-bags outside, folded-shut, for 6 months through the winter .. it composted nicely & no foul smell. At that time I was a newbie in Dr-Huey-rootstock, so I topped my roses (grafted on Dr.Huey) with leaves in late fall. It was a disaster: the leaves were too acidic, and rotted Dr.Huey rootstock (prefer alkaline). In spring time, the canes were black with canker, plus blackspots from acidic leaves.

Grass-clippings or leaves can compost itself inside brown-bags, just have to pick that up from the neighbors. A bag of grass-clippings gives off tremendous heat while it decomposes. In late fall, I put those inside my garage and it heated up the entire garage at freezing temp.

Decomposing organics like green grass & alfalfa can give off heat that cook roots to death. I burnt my hands when I touch a clump of "hot" grass-clippings inside a bag. Once it's completely decomposed, then the grass is no longer "hot" and safe to touch.

Thanks for the tips Straw. My neighbors and I don't have grass since I live in a city. But there are a lot of leaves that I can get from the landscapers of my neighborhood. My issue is that I have so little space to store something out of sight because my back yard is so tiny. I probably could only tuck away 1 bag.

Not sure where I could get brown bags. I am hoping if I leave the top a little open, add some water and soul, there would be enough air to decompose the leaves in a plastic bag? Anyway this is more of an experiment and will test the pH before applying the stuff to my garden. My soil is already to acidic.

Totoro: The brown bags are "yard-waste" bags (tall & sturdy) sold at Walmart, Menards, Ace-hardware, HomeDepot, Lowe's in the fall so people can put leaves inside. Wet leaves can be stinky & moldy so I prefer "dry-compost", leaving the bags outside, with top folded down to prevent rain getting inside.

My neighbor did that .. she lined up Yard-waste bags (closed up) next to her house (where it's partially sheltered from rain). After 6 months of winter, the leaves are dry & fluffy & composted & no odor.

I don't like "wet compost" .. I did that one fall throwing fresh grass clippings on my tomato bed .. it became a stinky swamp with fall & spring rain. Mid-May I planted my tomato in that "composted swamp", a dozen of them died from "Verticullum-wilt", or fungal infection of the stem from sitting in a foul, wet, acidic decayed grass.

Keep it dry & alkaline is the key to prevent fungal growth, be it around roses or tomato. The horse manure pile is also "dry-compost", the stable chose a shady spot (with over-grown trees to block out the rain), then they piled up horse manure on sawdust, but they sprinkled "shell lime" to keep the odor down, and to prevent fungus & mushroom from growing.

Yes, I've had leaves/grass decompose in bags too. Pretty handy way of doing it. :)

Carol

thanks everyone for sharing. Straw, thanks for explaining about how to avoid mold and where to find the big brown bags. Will try that for my first composting experiment!

Glad to see you're giving compost a go! Your soil will thank you. I did want to mention since you're using paper bags that you can't get them wet or they'll disintegrate eventually, especially if exposed to the elements for a long period of time.. They are heavy, but not waterproof. Be sure to put them someplace protected. I've left them out exposed all Winter and was literally left holding the bag with compost littering my feet, when I went to lift them up.

I also wanted to warn you that not all the leaves may compost down; some may still be leaf mold which is extremely beneficial for your soil and is packed with beneficial fungii. It makes excellent mulch over a layer of compost and is really what encourages worm activity in my beds. I hope you report back next Spring. : )

I just finished dumping Starbucks used coffee grounds on the garden. Worms love it, and it's free!!

CArol

I've gotten some of the loveliest blooms yet on my new plants. Hope you enjoy!

The biggest, fluffiest most fragrant blooms on Viking Queen:

Despite some BS issues, intensely hued, thick luscious scented blooms on Darcey Bussell:

And FINALLY, a Munstead Wood bloom that dreamy, dark and mysterious. This is the colour I imagined when I ordered them, although I still love the more fuschia I've seen all Summer. The smell is divine. I don't know if this one is so dark because it bloomed behind a tomato leaf or what?

Vaporvac - Gah, drool!!! Love your Viking Queen!!!!! That's spectacular!!!

Love the color on you MW - that's exquisite!!! That's what I want on mine!!! Catcall whistle!!!

Darcey Bussell looks great too - love the petals!

Carol

Where did you get your Viking Queen? This has been one I have wanted to try. I thought it would be easier to find since it was bred in Mn....great pics! Come back Sam!!

Vaporvac: Absolutely gorgeous colors on your Viking Queen, Darcy Bussell, and Munstead Wood !! We are in a rainy week, I haven't seen the sun for a long time. I'm hoping things dry up so I can transfer roses from pots into the ground .. we get frost in mid October, so my rootings go to warmer-zones, and my pots have to be into the ground fast.

SUMMARY OF THIS POST:

Signs of over-fertilization: wilting in hot sun, leaves curl down.

too acidic: leaves curl up & thinner, and blackspots.

too alkaline: leaves twisted & crinkled (copper def), pale leaves.

potassium def: zero blooms, smaller blooms, thin & weak stems, and blackspots.

calcium def: less petals in blooms, stunt growth & short bush

nitrogen def: small leaves & pale lowest leaves, and less leaves

For the cheap chicken manure at NPK 5-3-2, that needs to be mixed with top soil, like Scott's top-soil (sold at Walmart for $2 per bag). I use a face-up garbage lid, mix 1 cup chicken manure with lots of top soil & other additives, then give one rose-bush half of that. Thus each rose bush gets 1/2 cup chicken manure, plus 1/4 cup lime (for blackspot-prone), or 1/4 cup of gypsum (for pale roses), plus 1/8 cup of sulfate of potash (Amazon sells that cheap).

The ratio and amount is VERY IMPORTANT. A lady once burned a dozen of her roses by fertilizing monthly with Mill's Magic NPK 6-5-1 (too high nitrogen can burn, so does chicken manure). I follow U. of Davis tissue analysis of best ratio in roses: equal amount of nitrogen to potassium, 1/2 calcium, and much less than 1/4 phosphorus.

The above treatment is done PRIOR to tons of rain: spring time April, heavy rain May & June, and rainy fall. Two applications for a dry year, and 4 times max for rainy years. Another lady killed a few rose bushes with monthly chicken manure. I play it safe, 3 times for my zone 5a short growing season.

During hot & dry summer stop that treatment, and use sulfate of potash & gypsum to fix alkaline-tap-water (equal sulfate of potash & gypsum pre-mix as powder) ... sprinkle less than 1 tablespoon per bush, and hose in at least 3 gallons of tap water.

bump this up for reference.

Thanks, Straw!! :)