Others will chime in I am sure but and I may be wrong but it sure doesn't sound like enough dollars to me. You are doing the most expensive part of building/renovating a house in a big dollar market. $400 a sq ft is almost a common budget sq ft number in a HCOL area and I HATE to use sq ft numbers but just quick math, trying to be realistic.

400-600 was my seat of the pants guesstimate, so I agree with millworkman. You are likely dealing with either Lowball Larry that make all of their money on change orders, or just folks who haven't done this level of project before and are completely out of their depth.

The teardown would be cheaper. It almost always is when compared with rebuilding more than 50% of an existing structure. And that is why I recommended it. You are not only rebuilding the whole ground floor, you are building a whole other house on top.

So you think multiple contractors are bs-ing me? I can't speak for anyone else, but yes I think they are BSing you.

You are building 1360 of new square footage and doing an extensive remodel in another 600 square feet. You are getting close to 2,000 square feet of remodeling and even coming in at $300k in an area where labor is dirt cheap would impress the hell out of me.

I think your rough estimates are still low, and I think if you pinned someone down to a fixed price contract (which I doubt anyone would do on an extensive remodel like this) you would be a lot closer to $500k.

Edit: I believe Sophie is right about the teardown. It is expensive to save existing sometimes. You are saving one bathroom and one kitchen and every other room in the house is getting remodeled (even the hall closet!). In the end, you are going to pay so much for the protection of those two rooms that they probably are not worth it.

I think it would be cheaper if you could do a combination of add-on and going into the basement. If you want to stay in this neighborhood in a bigger house, I think you are going to have to make big compromises on the the house you will actually end up with.

Good luck!

I'm so sorry - I know how hard all of this is. :( FWIW, I don't think the people on here are BS'ing you either. I had a nice little cape cod here in NY that I looked into doing some extensive renovations on, and in the end for me it just wasn't cost-effective. I ended up moving.

I'm somewhat familiar with Boston area real estate and I completely understand what you are saying/why you don't want to move. But if you decide to forge ahead at the $300k figure, please make sure you have a healthy cash reserve because I can almost guarantee you will have overages. It happens all the time on new builds and in many ways what you are doing is more complicated than building new.

Good luck!!!

700sf of the basement is already finished into a playroom/family room. We could certainly create a laundry room in the basement rather than moving it to the first floor. We could also change the current nursery into a master closet and bathroom, and keep the kids on the first floor in the back. However, I don't see us being happy with that long term. A year or two ago, we might have found something for $800K that satisfied our needs, but that is not the case in this market. If we really can't get the numbers nailed down, then we'll just have to see about waiting it out, or piecing it together...if we could get the shell updated, and fairly livable, we would be willing to chip away at it over time. It's just frustrating to be almost 2 years in now, and hearing that estimates may not be just a little off, but wildly so. How does anyone proceed with a contract if the builder could potentially add 50%? I can't imagine everyone doing a renovation has the money to spend waaaay over their original budget/estimate...

How does anyone proceed with a contract if the builder could potentially add 50%? I can't imagine everyone doing a renovation has the money to spend waaaay over their original budget/estimate...

You start with 50% more money than you thought you needed, end up with 70% of the remodel you wanted, and as a bonus it only takes 100% longer than the builder quoted.

Edit: Forgot to mention that you will lose 30% of your sanity, 70% of your faith in mankind, and 100% of your patience.

Ahh, lovely. Can't wait to dive in, bry911!!

Kercove - what town are you in near Boston? Anywhere near Waltham by any chance? I tend to agree with some of the others that this looks more like a $400-450k renovation unless your builder is really cheaping out on materials and is desperate for work. I have a really good builder that's doing our home now and has several remodels similar in scope to yours that I can intro you to if you are in this area.

Thanks, Michael! I'm on the North Shore, so probably a little far for a Waltham builder. I don't think anyone is cheaping out on materials, and they are all busy, but still have three solid guys coming in at or around $300K. I got one that was $380 (but strangely he ignored my plans and thought maybe he should add in a new kitchen), and another conversation with a design/build firm that suggested $600K.

As someone mentioned earlier ask one of the 300K guys for a fixed price or guaranteed maximum price contract and see what the response is. That will be the telling fact (especially the facial expression and the stammering for words).

Will do, millworkman. The guy that we are leaning towards has said that his estimates are time and materials, and that he tends to overcushion so as not to disappoint. Based on the work he's done for friends, he has remained true to his estimates in the past. I will certainly discuss it in more detail to figure out how to cover ourselves before we sign anything.

It wasn't yesterday, but my husband and I turned a single story Tudor cottage with a somewhat finished attic into a true 2 story - and did it while I was pregnant and didn't move out of the house. But we were young and stup, er wide eyed, and did it all ourselves with the help of family. It can be done. I don't recommend it. I can guarantee there will be costly surprises in that house during remodel/addition of this scope.

Oh and if they tell you it will take 4 months, I would absolutely double the time.

Thanks, DLM2000. We lived through our kitchen/dining room addition, and our only bathroom gut-job, but obviously this is way bigger. And we have a 2 and 4 yo. Cpartist, we will be moving to my parents' house, so thankfully, lengthier reno does not equal more money in rent somewhere. He's estimating 5 months, but we'll see. We just need to be back in by next August for my son to start kindergarten.

I agree with the others, that to get your costs way down, you need a major change of scope. To give you some perspective.....my husband and I did a major renovation of our home 10 years ago in N. Texas (WAY cheaper than the Boston area in terms of construction costs). It was very similar to yours in that we removed the roof, added a completely new second floor (with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, office and playroom) and gutted the downstairs to the studs (master bed/bath, living, dining, kitchen, 1/2 bath, laundry, and new garage). Basically building a brand new house, but could reuse the existing foundation (it did need some new piers) and saved on framing materials for the downstairs.

My husband was the GC for that and we did a fair amount of sweat equity. That cost us $200K. Again this was 10 years ago in a much cheaper area of the country.

I think you're 200K estimates were extremely low and $300K seems better, but still sounds a bit low. You don't have a kitchen to redo, so that saves you a bunch. I'd investigate the idea of just 'dormering' the existing attic space. Not sure how much head room you have up there now but that might be enough space to get you some additional rooms you want.

If there are certain things you can do yourself, that will save some significant dollars. If you can lay your own flooring, or do your own painting for example. That's a few thousand to save.

I am far from an expert, but I really don't like the upstairs plan.

In my personal experience you really need 6'6" to walk around without feeling like you are going to bump your noggin. The front bedroom (with the dormers) is 9' to the 4' knee wall, so even if you have a 12/12 pitch on the roof you are going to have 6'6" of comfortable floor space, as designed the bed is going to eat up all of the usable space.

I personally think you could accomplish much of what you have here with a large shed dormer on the back. However, I am not sure it is really worth doing either.

Bry911, thanks for the input on the plan. The knee walls will all be 5' where they say 4'. We were reluctant to move forward with the front left bedroom as is, so we will be adding a 1ft cripple wall around the perimeter before putting the roof back on. This should make this a reasonable bedroom for a child in our area of the country. Not huge, and not full-height everywhere, but plenty of character ;) I plan to put a twin bed tucked into the far left area, and the rest of the area can be open for Lego creations, tents, and whatever else my son can dream up. We could gain an extra foot on the back of the house with a bigger shed dormer, but that's only 44 additional sf.

If the doghouse dormers are a significant cost, we may remove those and just do one bedroom on each side. However, that would make us a 3br house, not 4br, and I'm not sure that's worth the sacrifice.

Gthigpen, thank you for the insight. We are considering leaving all of the first floor work, other than the windows, for later. I'm not sure how much that will save us, or how much difficulty it would be to do upstairs without downstairs, but it's definitely an option. However, the first floor reno is definitely not even close to a gut job. We are moving a couple of non-load-bearing walls, a few doors, and adding the bathroom and laundry room. I realize the plumbing is a big expense, so perhaps that's where we are running into trouble. Flooring will remain the same throughout with a bit of patching.

Honestly, I know this is a huge job, I'm just trying to figure out how to make it happen without removing all of the pieces that make it worth doing.

I think spending that much on this house would be a mistake even if you have the money. Overbuilding a neighborhood is always a mistake as things can happen that might require selling - things you can't even imagine. Also, you're going to gave big trouble with financing.

what about just putting a full dormer on the upstairs back of the house? You'd get more space.

As for these "ballpark" estimates- well, in my experience many people just don't realize how expensive something will be. Just last week, my landscape guy finally gave me an estimate to re-sod my tiny backyard. His ballpark? $600 - maybe $700; his bid? $1800. And yes, he's been doing this for a long time.

I'm not concerned about the financing end of things if we stay closer to our $200-250K budget. I realize things go over, which is why I want our starting point to be closer to $200K rather than 300K. I understand we might need to sell, and at that point, we may be looking at a $100K loss. That would totally suck, but it's not the end of the world. It's not like we'd lose all of the equity in the house.

The project already calls for a full dormer on the back of the house (though our current plan has us rebuilding the roof first to get a higher ridge). It may be doable with the current roof (this was our original plan when we started drawings) but I don't know that we will have a enough head room once all of the required insulation is added.

I could be totally wrong here, and I apologize if I am, but this looks a bit like a "might as well" plan (a.k.a. the "it's only" problem). They tend start with a simple idea to fix a problem and then spiral out of control. The go something like - "since we are doing A, we might as well do B, and since we are doing B, we might as well do C.

There are some traps to this method. For one, the money tends to get crazy, each additional item may not have a large marginal cost but all those relatively cheap things stack up to a major expense.

Another concern is, this is not the best way to solve a problem. In a way it is like walking out your door to your mailbox, then seeing your neighbor walk over and talk to them, then decide to walk to the end of the street to see something, then realizing you are half way to the grocery store you walk there. But when you get to the grocery store your feet are killing you because you never changed into decent walking shoes. While each step seems reasonable and efficient, it may not be the best way to get to the grocery store.

If this is how you came up with your plan, my advice is to put your needs and wants on a piece of paper and see if you can get to the same place with a different plan.

Bry911, you are right that it started with a much smaller scope (though we did approach the project in the beginning by asking our architect for 2-3 bedrooms and a bath upstairs, and a potential master suite scenario on the first floor for down the road). Things have been added, and it has grown exponentially over time, and a lot of the "phase 2" stuff has been wrapped into phase 1, as it seems easier and cheaper to do it all at once.

.As I'm sure other people have experienced, it's really hard to scale back the wish list once you see what can be done with the space. Honestly, this whole thing started with needing another bathroom! I'm planning to sit down with our builder to discuss some of the major line items, and see what will give us the biggest savings. I appreciate all of the input from everyone, and hope that we can still get what we need, plus some of what we want, without going overboard.

Your plans look great -- but I think it's a classic case of "champagne taste, beer budget". What you want is very expensive.

Honestly, I don't see a way to cut down on your plan. Either you raise the roof, or you don't. This is an odd project, one in which you cannot cut back on the square footage to save money.

I see a garage ... could you renovate that into living space and park on the street? You have a basement -- could you expand into that space? Do you have the land to add a "matching" wing on the other side to match the garage?

Why would two contractors give you a 200K estimate? I don't know. Unless you increased the scope of the project before actually "placing the order", that makes no sense.

I also have to add that I think you're making a mistake by purposefully over-improving for the neighborhood. I know, you say neighborhood is a non-negotiable, but I think it's a choice you'll regret in the future.

Thanks, mrspete. The basement is already half finished, and serves as a playroom/family room. It has the potential for water though, so I don't feel comfortable making that into bedroom space. Garage is a slight possibility, but the flow doesn't feel right at all, and being in New England, a garage is very nice to have. We don't have any extra land to expand our footprint.

Thank you for your input on the over-improvement...it's certainly a consideration, but we know how far we are willing to extend to stay put. I realize this is not a popular way to look at it, but it's a very personal decision. I can walk to the train, beach, park, downtown area, and can be on the highway in 3 minutes. Not willing to give that up for anything, and if our house stays tiny, so be it!

In a way it is like walking out your door to your mailbox, then seeing your neighbor walk over and talk to them, then decide to walk to the end of the street to see something, then realizing you are half way to the grocery store you walk there. But when you get to the grocery store your feet are killing you because you never changed into decent walking shoes. While each step seems reasonable and efficient, it may not be the best way to get to the grocery store.

I want to know how bry911 figured out where I lived and followed me around for a d... oh look! shiny object!

Is it possible to add onto the rear of the house instead of going up? That should be less money to do, I think.

I see a garage ... could you renovate that into living space and park on the street?

Not in Boston where they got over 100" of snow two years ago.

We're in NJ in a commutable by public transit NYC suburb, so comparable costs to outside Boston. Our town is basically split into $4-500k houses and $1mm+ houses, so that middle area has become filled by expanding the $4-500k houses. We are a case like that. $300k, if you don't need to do a kitchen or a foundation, is do-able, though it'll be tight. People telling you $400/sq foot are, in my recent experience, way off. You are doing the right thing by going back to the contractor to get his ideas on where you can save - that's what we did. There were a few items in the architect's plans we didn't realize were there, or that would be so expensive. You definitely have to work at finding areas to cut back on, and maybe ask for some flexibility on finding a sub on your own or supplying finishes on your own, or doing a little work yourself after he's done. 4-5 months is a best case scenario. I'd tack on another month or 3 for more realistic expectations.

Also, in our case where we doubled the size of the house and gutted the remainder, it still cost much less than a tear down. Combined with the value of our existing house, that would've put us in the $1mm all-in cost, and even if we had the money, it would never be worth that because of the lot. I was surprised at the cost difference given the scope of our work, but the architect and contractors confirmed that - it takes way longer, much more planning work, zoning fees, code issues.

I can walk to the train, beach, park, downtown area, and can be on the
highway in 3 minutes. Not willing to give that up for anything, and if
our house stays tiny, so be it!

Can you find other ways to "extend" your living space? A bay (or box bay) in the dining area to allow for a bigger table, or to allow more elbow room? Better storage? Add just a couple feet to the bedrooms? These options aren't as good as your proposal, but they will cost less.

Not in Boston where they got over 100" of snow two years ago.

Maybe not a wonderful solution, but possible -- especially if the OP is close enough to walk to all these areas or doesn't commute to work every day. If the OP is really willing to sacrifice anything for this location, it might be an option.

Freeoscar, thank you!!! Your situation sounds exactly like ours, which is so hard to make sense of, but is the reality of these desirable communities with access to big cities and great amenities. Do you have any posts about your project? I'd love to see what you did with your home.

Mrspete, unfortunately, it's the private spaces that are lacking...our common rooms are modest by most standards, but perfectly workable for our family. The bigger issue is 1 small bathroom, and small closets for each bedroom. We can't really expand our footprint as we are close to setbacks on all sides. As it is, we are already applying for a variance for the front porch.

Also, I'm completely underwhelmed by our current curb appeal, and I'm dying to change the crappy vinyl siding (not a need, but will definitely make me happier each time I come home). Definitely a balancing act with the budget, but hoping we can still make some good progress toward the wish list with $200-250K.

If your house is worth $500K and you are conceivably putting $300K into it while living with family for 5 months with two little kids, have you considered picking out a few houses in your neighborhood that would meet your needs and offering them $800K for their existing home? Sometimes people hear an offer like that, they get thinking and you can make a deal. Especially when there are no realtor fees to pay, I really think it would be a mistake to do what you are planning.

What your budget WILL accomplish:

A new master suite in your garage.

Tweaking the layouts of the bedrooms in the main house, but not wholesale rearrangement.

And that is it as far as how far 200K goes in a high COL area.

All of this is conjecture at this point as all you have is "budgets". Has any of the GC you are speaking to put pencil to paper and given you something in writing? If I have been following correctly the answer is no. As you have found out already the first guy told you a number that was completely false. You have heard from many people on here who have said the second and third guys is more than likely incorrect as well and several who think it is doable. As I stated ask the two GC's who told you 300K to put something in writing with the scope they propose to include. Until they are willing to do that this is all 100% a guestimate. My gut feeling is you will not be happy with the numbers you hear and or the scope they are willing to give you for the budget.

We did a project of similar scope west of Boston, and I'd agree that both the time and budget proposed seem low by a factor of 2-3. We had an exceptional piece of property and barn that made it worthwhile for us, but I'd agree with the others that hunting hard for an existing house in your area that meets your needs would probably be a more cost effective solution. In the Boston metro area a $400/sf cost for a renovation with good, but not exceptional materials seems pretty typical.

Sorry, maybe I was unclear about how I got the numbers. The first round of numbers (3 different builders) was based on a walk through and discussion. The second round of numbers (3 builders, one the same as the first round) are actually estimates with line items, lumberyard quotes, window/door schedules, etc. based on our final drawings. The main thing I need to clarify is whether these numbers are fixed or not, and how far off they could go...I realize that I won't have anything firm until I have a contract ready to sign.

Rwiegand, I wish I was able to find something we'd like to buy instead. We've been looking for 2 years now, and there have only been 1 or 2 houses that would have met our needs (and at the time, they were more than we thought we could afford).

Hello, have you thought about adding space-saving furniture for your bedrooms? We also have small bedrooms, and have added captain beds (with drawers underneath), so we don't need an armoire/cabinet. I'm also planning to remove the closet's folding door and replace it with a curtain, and add a closet storage system, to make more space for clothes.

Hope this helps,

Marie

Thanks, Marie! The bedrooms are okay for the moment, as my kids are quite little. The catalyst for this whole thing is that we need another bathroom...which spiraled into the whole project. Which we are happy about! We just need to figure out where we can cut back/shift things into phases/diy in order to make it work. We also need a new roof sooner rather than later, so now seems like the best time to take the plunge (also bc we can more easily move out before the kids get into school, as we'll be living a couple towns away).

Oh okay, well I wish you the best of luck in your project! :)

I assume that the upstairs is currently finished (as there are stairs up) but not to your satisfaction. Is that correct?

Have you thought about a nice master suite on the second floor and leaving the first floor alone? You will not resolve the common bath problem but adding a shed dormer instead of taking off the roof and avoiding the extensive remodel downstairs really reduces the scope of the project. Not to mention that first floor masters in older homes are highly overrated. Trust me you don't want your teenager's room over top of your bedroom.

The second round of numbers (3 builders, one the same as the first round) are actually estimates with line items, lumberyard quotes, window/door schedules, etc. based on our final drawings.

It doesn't matter how detailed the estimate is, it doesn't even matter if it is a firm bid, if you are on the hook for unforeseen items or the contract has a bunch of allowance accounts, then it is only valuable as a guide. Until they commit to a maximum or fixed price and a contract without a lot of allowances then stand by with your checkbook.

Please note: I am not saying the estimates are wrong, they may well be right and we are wrong. The estimates are very contrary to my (and I feel many other people's) experience which sets off the alarm bells. We are advising that you be prepared for much worse, whether that be through really nailing the contractors down to a firm price or expecting a higher cost. I said this recently in another thread but it is worth repeating. Inexpensive builds and remodels happen when people can spend extra money and choose not to, they rarely happen when people don't have the extra money to spend.

Thanks, bry911. I do appreciate all of the input, and am wary of the numbers myself, which is why I'm asking for help. We would feel much more comfortable committing to a starting budget of $200K, leaving us plenty of wiggle room for unforeseen issues...and if we stick to budget, great! I'll choose prettier tile, we'll hire painters instead of painting ourselves, we'll buy new furniture, etc. And if not, we know we have a cushion to work with. Going in planning to do a project estimated $300K would be a mistake.

I am not comfortable having the kids on the main floor without us. I get that they will one day (sooner than I think) be older and bigger, and I won't want them over my bedroom. But for the foreseeable future, having them above us, or us staying in the large playroom upstairs, is all I'm really considering. Which leads me to thinking that maybe the whole first floor plan waits (with the exception of windows since they will affect the siding). But we'll still need to figure out where we can bring up the plumbing and heating ducts.

Oh, and the upstairs is completely unfinished, bry911...just a walkup attic.

The second guesstimate is 50% over what you originally planned and that is still a wag until you nail down specifics. How old is your home? You are going to need a huge contingency for all the things you don't know until you know. Like when they open up walls and actually see what the electrical and plumbing is. And your basement having the "potential for water?" Plan on upgrading all systems, including HVAC, due to increased square footage. 300K seems low based on the scope of what you are planning on doing.

Is looking at other properties in your location an option? One's that might need some remodeling to fit your family and lifestyle but not as much as this house?

Wantsidea, I'm not clear on exactly what specifics I should be nailing down at this point that haven't been accounted for already (for bigger ticket items I mean...I know how much of a range I can find for plumbing fixtures, lighting and tile).

The house was built in 1950, and has gone through a full bathroom and full kitchen renovation, plus turning a breezeway into a dining room/mudroom. HVAC has been confirmed by our oil guys (who installed our furnace for the previous owner) to be sufficient for carrying the upstairs load. Electric panel was updated for the kitchen and confirmed sufficient for this project. Water heater replaced during bathroom reno and chosen to support 2 additional bathrooms in the future. All of our mechanicals are in the unfinished side of our basement and are easily seen by the subs. I've warned the contractor to prepare for water damage behind our vinyl siding, as we saw a bit during the previous reno.

I don't mean to be defensive at all, but I do feel like we've done quite a bit of due diligence to prepare for this, and are also fully aware that things will come up, hence trying to back off our scope so that we can have the reserves to deal with such things.

We have looked for other properties, both move-in ready, and for renovations, but they are few and far between (anything needing renovation needs a LOT, and anything nicer is gone in a day, for way over asking). At least with our home, we know the positives and negatives from living here and doing previous renovations. If we were to update another house, who's to say that it wouldn't have some major issue that we never could have known about? There is always going to be risk involved...just looking for the best way to mitigate it.

Just to be clear, what I was suggesting was to make offers on existing houses in your neighborhood that meet your needs that are NOT currently on the market. Even if you have to overpay that would probably make more financial sense, give you more certainty and prevent you from having to live with family.

Yes, thank you schreibdave! I did see your note about that, and I've considered it on many occasions. Perhaps I should get those letters out now, and then have one more thing to consider before taking the plunge. The hard part is knowing whether the interior matches our needs without it having listing photos...worth a try!

Oh, and we love my family (live together most weekends anyway) so luckily that's not an issue :)

kercove - I haven't really posted much about our renovation, as I'm a little superstitious about these things. We have (had) a 3/1.5 split, not a cape, about 1400 square feet habitable. Added about 1400 sq feet back and up, with about 600 sq feet of basement (not included in the 1400 added), and another 150 of crawl. Down to the studs for the existing, including new electrical and some plumbing and some re-working of ductwork to adapt to new 2 system, 3 zone setup. Brand new water heater, furnace, A/C units. All new siding and windows. One side of split had roof chopped off (and new one built), other side re-shingled. All new interior and exterior doors (including garage) and other trimwork. Were able to save 500 sq feet of oak floors - rest of house new oak floors or tile (vinyl in basement). Brand new kitchen cabs, counter, etc., but kept a couple of appliances. Outside vented gas fireplace. End up with 5 beds, 3 full, 2 1/2 baths, all new everything in them.

Mid 300s for the construction, another 15k for architect, permits, variances. We provided almost all the finishings. I'm doing the low voltage work and closet systems.

Thanks, freeoscar! I totally understand not posting...I should probably stay off these boards myself, other than lurking! Sounds like quite a project, and I'm really happy to hear how your numbers came together for a huge amount of work. What did you use for siding? Any idea what the market value is for your house now?

Market value is around $775-800 (based on similar-ish sales over the past couple of years). We used a royal haven insulated vinyl siding (plank - 6"). Not for the insulation value (little to none really), but it feels more solid - much less give than a typical vinyl. Vinyl is totally the norm for my area on anything below $1mm (and even some a little above that). We love it.

If
your house is worth $500K and you are conceivably putting $300K into it
while living with family for 5 months with two little kids, have you
considered picking out a few houses in your neighborhood that would meet
your needs and offering them $800K for their existing home? Sometimes
people hear an offer like that, they get thinking and you can make a
deal. Especially when there are no realtor fees to pay, I really think
it would be a mistake to do what you are planning.

Possibly the smartest comment on this thread. OP, your proposal just doesn't make financial sense, and this may get you close to your goal most easily.

Yes, thank you schreibdave! I did see your note about that, and I've
considered it on many occasions. Perhaps I should get those letters out
now, and then have one more thing to consider before taking the plunge.
The hard part is knowing whether the interior matches our needs without
it having listing photos...worth a try!

You know you can do a great deal of snooping through your county /city's GIS. You can find out square footage, general shape of the house (upper and lower floors), number of bedrooms /bathrooms ... all privately from your living room.