You learned a valuable lesson that you should not repot plants in the heat of summer in Riverside. Your result is entirely predictable regardless of media.

Nil13 - Do you think it was the washing and re-potting during high temperatures? I've been gradually making up soil for transplanting. I have numerous plants, it's hot here, I don't know when to start.

Washing is part of repoting, otherwise it would just be potting up. A full repot is very stressful on plants. It is best done either in Spring or Fall depending on the growing season of the plant. SoCal seasons are tricky and you have to know your plant. If you buy a plant in the heat of summer, your best bet is to keep it in its pot and wait for the optimal time to repot.

Washing the potting soil from the roots enables the roots to grow into the gritty mix without encountering a "barrier" (i.e., "perched water table") between the potting soil and the gritty mix.

That is correct, but it doesn't mean do it in the heat of summer. The washing of the roots destroys a lot of the fine feeder roots needed to take up water. The plant can easily replace them if it is actively growing and it's not very hot and dry. But if it is hot and dry you're probably going to have problems.

First, while it might be a failure IN the gritty mix, it wasn't a failure OF the gritty mix. It's about as likely your plant would have collapsed no matter what medium you used - as has been noted, which brings me to; second, yours is a plant that doesn't fit into the houseplant repotting scheme of repotting when the plant is most robust and food making ability is at its peak. It wants to be repotted before it gets serious about growing in the spring, though you can repot later if you do it appropriately ........ which provides the lead-up to; third, while conventional wisdom would find you leaving the canopy intact when transplanting a plant, and those who have memorized that pearl of wisdom would be quick to tell you all about how the leaves make the food that stimulates roots to grow .......... and so forth, conventional wisdom doesn't take into account the huge difference between repotting (especially in the hottest months) and pulling a plant out of a nursery can and putting it in the ground on an early spring day. If you had removed about 2/3 - 3/4 of the canopy at repot time, it's very likely the plant would have recovered instead of collapsing. You broke a ton of fine roots at repot time, which severely compromised the plant's ability to move water efficiently. It's possible that a lot of roots might have died due to desiccation, too, all of which would lead to the predictable drought response that is made manifest in shedding of foliage.

Trees are pretty resilient and reluctant to leave this astral plane if we don't give them good reason to die. The theory that removing a fraction of the canopy to balance out the ability of roots to keep that canopy alive should never be considered a fast rule. Witness what happened to your plant. It's a good guideline for transplanting nursery material, but not as reliable when you're repotting or digging up from the landscape and transplanting. In these cases, reducing the canopy and even total defoliation might be appropriate.

As your time spent growing in pots increases, so does the probability or the total number of times you'll be faced with a decision to remove part of the canopy so the tree has enough root function to support the remaining canopy, or to leave the canopy intact and risk a total collapse. Reducing the canopy might mean a little slower recovery than if you wouldn't have reduced the canopy 'AND' all the canopy lived, but that's far better than not having the benefit of the 'AND' in caps or the need to worry about it because the plant is exanimate.

Al

Because the many "gritty mix" discussions (especially yours) are posted in the "Container Gardening" forum, I didn't feel "gritty mix" was limited only to houseplants.

When I bought the Australian Brush Cherry and the Mountain Pepper, the grower had potted them in 10-inch plastic pots so they aren't "trees" so I didn't consider removing 2/3 - 3/4 of their canopies.

I don't see how the roots would've become "desiccated" because they were kept wet from the moment I took the plants out of their nursery pots, washed the original potting mix from their roots, potted the plants in the gritty mix and watered the plants. I've also watered the plants every 2 or 3 days for the next 3 weeks.

What can I do now to save the plants?

trees are just large woody perennials. There isn't any real difference between woody perennial shrubs and woody perennial trees except final size.

I was referring to the guideline that most houseplants are best repotted during the most robust part of the growth cycle, and noting that Eugenia doesn't fit in with the rest of the plants. The Drymis l also wants a spring repot. The gritty mix is entirely appropriate for either plant.

Forgive my habit of looking at anything woody as a tree. As a bonsai practitioner, even coleus and snapdragon are potential trees to me. Fortunately, what they're called doesn't change what constitutes appropriate treatment.

Maybe the roots didn't dry out during the repot. It wasn't an accusation - I just mentioned it because it's a very common cause of major post-repot issues. There is no doubt though, that a repot represents a significant limitation, even if temporary, on a root systems ability to function, which is something best considered in advance.

It's very likely, given the mass of the original canopy, there's a lot of energy stored in the roots. The plants might shrug off the ignominy and push a new flush of growth - done deal. Total collapse and lose of viability are also possibilities. If they were my plants, I'd prune them back to a basic structure. I'd probably reduce the volume of branches by 75% or more. Then, I'd remove any leaves that look like they're not going to make it to further reduce transpiration and let more light/air movement into the center of the plant to promote back-budding. I'd either site it in open shade out of wind or tent it and keep it in open shade. No fertilizer until it starts to push. Also, make sure you keep the soil moist wherever roots are growing. The top of the gritty mix dries out quickly. This isn't a problem for established plants because roots in the upper quadrant of the soil serve only as plumbing and anchorage (essentially), but it CAN be a problem for fresh repots with a lot of roots in the upper half of the soil.

If your plants recover, they'll really take off. The silver lining is (if you prune hard now) you'll have had a good look at the plants' structural pluses and minuses and the opportunity to correct the bad and maybe bring extra focus to bear on the good.

I hope everything breaks your way, and 3 weeks from now your angst will be just a memory.

Al

Should I:

• shear off 75% of the shrubs' height
• prune back 75% of the shrubs' volume

I had about the same results last year, losing both Mountain Peppers. The Brush Cherry still looks sad enough that I may replace it. It was a tall column and now has big missing sections.

I left about 6" cube of the original nursery potting mix in the middle to reduce shock and watered FAR more than you did. There was only a day or two recently where the temp was low and the humidity high where I might have not watered that day. A day like today with a high of 77 and super high humidity of 46% might qualify. 100+ and low humidity and a new transplant into gritty means water 3 times per day. If I pot something in summer and have a hot day, I go home at lunch and water.

Even when established, those plants in full sun will need water every day on the hot/dry days. People in other parts of the country are not going to able to understand triple digit temps with single digit humidity. I've gone to what I call a gritty-ish mix with the lower parts being gritty for drainage and less granite and finer particle sizes in the upper parts of the pot for some more water retention. I go to no granite at all in the top third of the pot. I change the mix very slowly and blend the change into each other. Only works with taller pots, of course since layers are an absolute no-no.

The nursery I bought the shrubs from have a lifetime guarantee so I think I'll return both shrubs before December 1st rather than pruning them and hoping they "maybe" recover

I haven't been able to find Mountain Pepper to replace the two I killed last year. Can you tell me where you found them?

I found some at the Armstrong Garden Center at 735 E Foothill Blvd in Claremont. (If they don't have any in stock, they'll order them at no extra cost).

Gary,

Thanks for jogging my memory about ordering from Armstrong Claremont, which is 2 miles from my office.

An update on established plants in Gritty Mix in full sun for our last two days of 100+ temps with 8% humidity. They all did fine surviving 24 hours before the next watering and were just losing turbidity indicating they were ready for water. I'm sure they would have survived another hot day but would have been looking sad. Two days of that in the middle of summer with the much longer days could be a different story.

I'm convinced that gritty is too much of a good thing for this climate and plants in full sun.

You do know you can adjust the amount of water the soil holds w/o sacrificing aeration or drainage by varying the ratio of Turface to grit?

4 Turface

3 bark

2 grit

offers MUCH more water retention than the 1:1:1 ratio.

Al

I wish I knew that BEFORE I mixed 50 cu. ft. of gritty mix (based on your instructions for 1:1:1 gritty mix).

Adjusting the ratios now would be too difficult and would result in the plants going through another re-pot shock (the first one was fear-inducing until the plants slowly recovered).

Gary

Just to mention that there are many threads on this forum about adjusting mixes (both 5.1.1 and 1.1.1-gritty). And there are also many threads discussing substitutes.

I realize that but adjusting the ratios now is too late.

Gary - I'm not/wasn't trying to sell you or anyone else a mix, or even make the effort to pressure anyone to use any particular recipe. I provide information, generally considered very helpful, to promote a concept that, once understood, you and others can press into service as a way to avoid the prevalent limitations associated with excess water retention in most commercially prepared media. At the very end of a very detailed discussion that explains how to put that concept to work are 2 recipes that provide good starting points from which to implement the concept.

How your plants responded was predictable. You'll find me working with others on a daily basis at this time of year, helping them weigh the pros/cons of repotting out of season or pruning hard at inappropriate times and trying to discourage them from working their plants/plantings on an 'at will' basis, and instead, adjusting the timing of procedures so the plant is better able to tolerate the imposition. Very recently I've had at least 3 very spirited, even vehement debates during which I argued against others who were encouraging growers to do exactly what you did, so if I'd have had any input, I surely would have encouraged you to wait, too; or, had I known you were intent on repotting now, I'd have offered the suggestion to reduce the canopy significantly at the same time, explained the reasoning, and squared it against commonly repeated "conventional wisdom", as I did upthread.

Essentially, what I'm saying is, I can only be responsible for what I say, and not what you do with your plants, when you do it, what parts of the things I offer you do/don't understand, or for those things you miss getting exposed to entirely.

Al

Gary, I am probably one of the earliest person trying to help you
with your gritty mix. You started with the recipe for 50 cubic ft of
mix. And I suggested take small steps at a time and try to get used to it

I got annoyed since you kept posting many threads around the same
topic. You defended it in your own way saying people do not respond if a
thread is old. Fair enough. You probably now have more than 20 threads
on the same topic. Or some variation thereof. Yet by posting so many times you missed many valuable advise.

Let me remind you of at least two threads, started by YOU, that mention adjusting the gritty mix based on your OWN questions:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4004999/modify-gritty-mix-formula-for-container-gardening

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/4003795/modify-gritty-mix-formula

Both those threads had at least one response that gave you advise on how to increase water retention. Same as what Rina alluded to earlier. So the knowledge was there in front of you BEFORE you wrote that and you claim that you did not know it before.

I feel for your experience.

I think people read the wisdom of an 'expert' without understanding the variables involved in growing plants well. Al gives good information but it doesn't fit the majority of growers. Al's experience is with bonsai, not large container plants.

Al does not explain when circumstances dictate changes with the growing media. I don't agree with 5.1.1 or grit mix.

These factors have to determine the mix: Are the plants grown inside, outside, temperatures, sunlight, water, climate and grower time and expertise?

Al and I go back quite a few years, he does not agree with me. I have always tried to teach people to think about how they live, their climate, whether the plant is appropriate for indoor growing and if indoors, what their lighting conditions, how they water.

I live in Florida now. I grew most of my life in NY. Indoors and out. My plants always summered outdoors and came in for winter.

I totally agree that your timing for repotting was a mistake. Plants are not in growth mode. Most plants are slowing down and will do so until Spring. Spring is the best time for a major repot. I have had success doing a major repot in Jan and Feb. in Florida. I would never do that in NY.

I looked at your temperatures and they are the similar to S. Florida where my plants are growing now. It was 94 degrees today with humidity over 80%.

I have seedlings waiting to be planted but I will not plant them in the ground or in pots until the temperature breaks. In my area of Florida it is late. Usually, by September the temps begin to lower into the 80's but that hasn't happened yet. My many trays of plants have to wait to go in the ground for the right conditions.

I always make a mix with a small amount of potting soil mixed with bark and perlite. I would never use a grit mix except for succulents. Even then, I still add some potting mix (small amount) to hold some moisture during the dry season (winter).

I do not disagree with Al and his followers. But, I do stress that each grower has to understand how they grow (watering) and their climate.

I feel for you and understand your confusion. It was a bad time of year to repot, it was too hot and you damaged the roots washing off the soil. You could have done a simple 'up-pot' without disturbing too many roots. Put those plants in the shade until they recovered.

At this point, I would try to get your money back. If not, move the plants into a cooler, shadier spot and keep them moist. Cut them back by at least 1/2.

Since you mixed such a large amount of grit, try adding some moisture retaining material to the mix. Some potting soil, some bark or even some sphaghnam moss. Something to keep the roots from drying out too fast. Wait for cooler temperatures.

Good luck,

Jane

Jane said "I looked at your temperatures and they are the similar to S. Florida where my plants are growing now. It was 94 degrees today with humidity over 80%."

Yesterday here was 102F and 8% humidity. Most of Florida has 60 rainy days plus many overcast days during the 120 days from Mid June to Mid October. We sometimes have ONE.

The water requirements for containers here are dramatically different during our rare tropical storm days when the humidity climbs to something really wet like 50%.

I also think you can add some water retention to the top of the pots without repotting the plants. How about removing some, adding Turface, and covering with bark for some protection?

Jane knows with absolute certainty that my experience with container culture is extensive and goes well beyond that gained via the bonsai experience, which is a horizon (she has yet to successfully visit, and) where the understanding of container culture's intricacies expands far beyond the day to day workings of conventional container culture; so falsely claiming my experience is limited to bonsai or implying that practicing bonsai in some way imposes limitations on a grower's proficiency at something as simple as growing a tree or shrub in a container could hardly be more agenda-driven or unfounded. While it might be her stated opinion that my constructs can't be broadly applied, it doesn't mesh with the opinion of a significant majority of growers, nor does the number of one-on-one, climate-specific conversations I constantly engage in support her contention. Further, Jane's contention that I fail to "...... explain when circumstances dictate changes with [in] the growing media" is also a falsehood. That is a topic that has been actively discussed on a daily basis across multiple fora, almost since I initially started posting about container culture and media in '04.

One thing I can ALWAYS depend on is that Jane will remain steadfast in her opinions, that they will always be opposite mine except in cases where withholding even provisional assent would go well beyond the pale; and her opinion will run counter to everything that might shine a favorable light on anything I do or say. Anyone who has been around this and other fora for longer than 6 months knows this to be a fact, and I'd be happy to support that contention to admin and help them look into it if it comes to that point.

Gary - if you truly feel as though you need it (more water retention), there are better ways to achieve that end than by putting into practice a plan that completely negates the primary reason you made the medium and screened the ingredients in the first place, which was to shed the limitations imposed by perched water. Jane's idea of adding potting soil or sphagnum moss would turn the soil you made into just another soil, similar to what you can buy off the shelf. Ideally, you would use materials that increase water retention w/o changing the physical characteristics to the point where the additional water retention is gained via the introduction of a PWT and inherent soil saturation. IOW - you can achieve the goal of more water retention w/o a notable change in aeration or drainage characteristics and w/o having to suffer limitations related to perched water. Hopefully you'll return to the conversation before plotting an immalleable course.

Al

Al, I am one of those that totally appreciates everything you have shown me when it comes to container culture and how to make great porous mixes and how to amend them if I need too...You have shown me how to make my mixes, the concepts of them most critical, and how to make them more water retentive and the opposite without sacrificing the integrity of healthy root systems if need be...I have no idea how anyone could think otherwise but as far as I am concerned, I don't see any truth in false accusations and misconceptions...I don't think personalities differences and disagreements should have any baring on the knowledge that you so willingly produce here..

So Jane, please could you just stick with the facts and how open mixes provide lots of air movement and oxygen to the roots which is needed and I would respect you for that))

Al, since you are spending quite a bit of time here, please help me out since I started a thread for you a few days ago and I don't think you have seen it, or would you prefer me wait until you get your bearings together?

Thanks

Thanks for the kind words Mike. I'm very used to dealing with people who have an ax to grind. Fortunately, I'm more interested in the veracity/usefulness of their day to day offerings than the personalities behind those offerings. I always figure it's much easier for others to decide for themselves what I'm like as a person, than it is to decide whether someone's information is meant to be helpful to others or hurtful to me. Jane's history has always shown the later is much the more important, at least when we participate in the same threads, which is why we disagree so often. It's intentional on her part. She has her little hot button phrases and pieces of advice she uses over and over and over to purposely trigger a negative response because she knows I tend to disagree with bad info and in doing so hopes I'll end up looking like the aggressor.

I've been much busier than usual, but I do have my bearings. ;-) I haven't noticed a thread you started, but that's because I've been primarily focused on the threads I get update notices on because I've already contributed to them. I'll ck this forum for your thread. If I don't find it, you'll need to provide a link.

Al

No one is interested about how you feel about Al or his advice...Just stick to the question and you might be of more help)

Seems there's something missing above. Was there a comment posted and then deleted?

If there was, the first line or so should still be in the email notification you rec'd, notifying you there was activity on your thread. Sometimes people post things, then think better of it and delete what they wrote, too. It's not always admin that removes posts.

Al

My above post was the first that sub'd me to this thread. So the only email notification I got was from your last post.

Smart thinking though!

But houzz has a terrible notification system. Sometimes they come several hrs later and sometimes never.

I think this thread is sort of dead too. The OP has disappeared. Could it be my not so friendly response earlier?

On topic: sometimes I resort to putting sphagnum moss as a top dressing after repotting in a gritty mix to prevent moisture loss from the top surface. My target is to remove that layer in a month or so. If that does not help then I know there is something seriously wrong underneath.

The nursery from which I bought the Eugenia and the Drimys will replace the dead plants within 90 days of purchase.

So, in November, I'll get replacements, wash the grower's potting soil from the roots, cut back the canopies 2/3 to 3/4, plant them in gritty-mix, water them frequently, keep them in the shade until new growth occurs, then apply regular doses of fertilizer.

Gary - I see the True Gritty wars continue. I have a suggestion for you, a different type of mix to try which has worked well for me in the High Sierra Desert region, where I get similar high temps and (lack of) humidity.

Since I can't get Turface in less than industrial quantities, I tried an Al-approved substitute and several variations thereof based on crushed pumice, bark, peat, and the clay stuff that gets sold to pick up spilled oil.

I had several dozen small citrus which I started from seed.

Long story short - half of the citrus planted in the Al-approved gritty-like mix actually died. All of the shortest stumpiest plants were grown in one of the gritty-like mixes, including the Al approved one. All of the tallest, fullest, healthiest plants were grown in a mix with a high proportion of peat and bark, or in the mix I made using peat, bark, and Growstone - which is man-made and has many qualities similar to pumice. I used I think it was the #2 - the smaller grade of Growstone, about 3/8" to 1/2" in size (mostly). I think it was 3:2:1 peat to bark to Growstone. Might have been 3:2:2, I can't remember and my computer crashed and took that with it - though I'm almost certain I posted it somewhere here.

I found all of the gritty-like mixtures to be difficult to deal with not only watering - I found that floating the plants was too much work and flooding them is only possible outdoors for me, I don't have a greenhouse. But also I had a lot of difficulty with fertilization. Foliar feedings didn't work for my guys. I tried everything I could think of, and several ideas from a local soil scientist who works almost exclusively with a Turface-based gritty mix for growing cacti and native plants. I just don't have the physical wherewithal for dealing with a gritty mix, on ohsomany levels.

The state ag guys deal with the watering issues (of a gritty mix) by using an automated system that mists, and collecting and recycling the (copious) runoff. Whereas I have to water with a hose or drip irrigation, or by floating each pot, which makes watering a gritty or gritty-like mix difficult.

However I had NO problems with any of my non-gritty soil mixes. I got the best performance from the mixes that included the Growstone.

So my suggestion is - try a few plants in a container mix using Growstone and see how you like it. My next experiment will be to get the #1 Growstone which is a lot larger and trying that in a 50/50 mix and in a 70/30 mix (Peat to Growstone).

Home Despot, Lows, and all their ilk no longer carry anything but shredded cedar and the pre-dyed ground up demolished houses and tree waste from the lumber industry around here. No more Mountain Magic stuff that was more or less acceptable. I'm not including a bark component in my next iteration because I can't GET it any more, at all. I would continue to use it if I could get anything acceptable.

The ratios above are being used with pumice successfully. Growstone isn't EXACTLY pumice by a long shot - it weighs less for one thing - but it has a lot of positive characteristics in common with pumice. I have repotted most of my trees by now at least two or three times (they're a bit over 2 years old by now) and I routinely find roots growing through the Growstone, which you also see with pumice.

I rinse the Growstone before using, and in fact I float it in big 5 gallon buckets, stirring once in a while, and then scoop it out leaving the smallest grit and dust behind. Less water used that way which I think matters when you live in a desert. Growstone is probably a bit more alkaline than even pumice, but I'm rather fond of my peat moss and that goes a long way towards moderating the pH.

I read the same soil science book somebody else around here did, published in the 80s, and only ONE CHAPTER of that book discussed the turface-based soil substitute that has come to be known on this forum as "gritty mix". All the other chapters talked about other types of container soils based on other components.

I'm not necessarily saying gritty mixes and their relatives are always bad - clearly they aren't. But if they don't work for you, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Find what DOES work for you and let the insults from the True Believers sheet off you like water off a duck.

BTW - I pay about $30 for a big bag (1.5 cf) of Growstone. It seemed expensive to me at first - but more than 2 years later I have successfully reused ALL of that first bag. I've only had to use 2 bags of the stuff and I have a third bag sitting around unopened.

Personally I've never had any luck reclaiming any size of perlite, plus both Home Despot and Lows have stopped carrying the coarse grade anyway. So while the initial investment made me wince, I've not had to buy any more because I just keep reusing the old stuff by floating it, scooping it out and leaving the spent organics behind, floating it again in water with a little bleach added (5% I think, definitely not more than 10%), rinse it one more time, and its ready to go into a new batch. You can find it very easily at most any hydroponics store.

BTW I have also been able to reclaim a lot of the bark this way. Whatever gets left in the bottom of the bucket after the first rinse goes into my compost heap.

I am VERY much looking forward to getting out of the desert and back to a place where it rains more than 7" per year. Then I might have some hopes of being able to once again make use of processed yard waste/compost from the city, because I can't even buy any remotely acceptable bagged bark/mulch any more. The big box stores have all stopped carrying it and I cannot afford greenhouse prices.

Thank heaven I started my Growstone experiments when I did! At least I still have SOME bark left, and there is always the upcoming peat/Growstone only experimentation to give me some hope yet, LOL!

I used equal volumes of:

• GreenAll micro-bark
• Granite No. 5 (1/4")
• Turface MVP

Zen, no one is insulting anyone here that does not use the 'gritty mix', and certainly not me....

Please, where can I get grower stone?

I would like to try what you are talking about for certain plants..I have well over 30 citrus trees, many in gritty, many in the 5.1.1 and a few in bagged mixes..I like to grow them anyway I want and then some the best way I know how.. I am always willing to try something new, as long as it's well aerated and porous enough to drain well and allow the roots to my trees to breath for quite some time in the same mix. I've yet to see something that can top the 5.1.1 or gritty mix..

Gary, you will find that once you know how to use the gritty mix properly, which can take a little time for some if they don't give up, you will be very successful with your plants like you have never experienced as I have). I'll be honest, I too lost a few plants when I started some few years back, but to me wit was worth the sacrifice to be where I am today with my well over 300 plant species from all over the world and locally, most watered and grown in house.....Continue to let Tapla guide you If you choose to ignore the failures of others and the naysayers, You won't be disappointed.

Mike

Good advice from Zens. Worth a try and it sounds like it would retain more moisture.

I offer how I grow for posters to understand options available. The grower needs to understand their growing style (watering frequency), climate (temps., light, humidity) . Also the cultural requirements of the plant they grow.

Greg, interesting, sounds like desert conditions! Florida has such high humidity and heat in the summer, it's challenging. The winters are extremely dry, humidity low (never 8%), hardly any rain. So, mixes have to work in both environments. I am happy how mine have handled it so far. It's going on 4 years here.

Took a lot 'fiddling' with my proportions but it's working well.

Mike, I'm suprised at how rude you have been to me. I never attacked anyone, nor grit mix. I did not attack Al at all. I certainly would never treat you that way in orchids or any other forum. I'm truly hurt.

it doesn't even sound like the Mike I know.

Jane

Jane I think it's rude when you insult the people I truly respect here.

I should be hurt since my suggestions are always ignored by you, insulted by you, and you have accused me of being a 'follower'.... These forums is not a religion and I follow 'NO ONE'....Calling me a 'FOLLOWER' or 'BELIEVER' is an insult..Like I have no brain of my own..Do you and others think this a religious experience or a cult? That bothers me more than you insulting Al..It's suppose to be an enjoyable experience on this 'container forum' where people have a the freedom to chose and teach without repercussions for doing so or agreeing with Al..

Let's all be kind and helpful on this forum and never mind berating people and calling them names..That is childish... Stop calling me a follower simply because I choose to use what Al offers..

I have never said anything bad against you or discredited your advice here. Please, don't take it personal..?

If I've hurt you, I apologize.

Gary, I apologize for the detour but I certainly hope you all the best in your endeavors to be successful with the gritty mix or a variation there of..)

Zen, again please, where can I get 'Grower Stone'? I would really like to try that stuff..It sounds promising...Thanks

Mike

Suzanne

What a nice post.

It doesn't matter if one agrees or disagree, it can be said in very respectful - civilized way.

As for posts by some other individuals, it is not so much what is said, but how it is said. Name calling is so childish...

Hi Mike,

"Zen, again please, where can I get 'Grower Stone'? I would really like to try that stuff..It sounds promising...Thanks"

I know I'm not Zen, but he mentioned that it can be found at Hydroponic stores. There are many in the Greater Boston Area - and I see you're in MA. If you're within the 495 belt, I can suggest Root Down in Medford. I'm going there today to get FP and would be happy to check, but am pretty sure I saw it in their online inventory. There's about 4 or 5 others in the area, between Lyn and south shore too.

-Amy

Mike - when people take you to task for what you're thinking or what you believe, they very often confuse your personality with your attitude. For your own peace of mind, you might remember that your personality is the best reflection of who you are, while your attitude is a shape-shifter that takes its form according to who they are. Ganbatte kudasai! From what I read, that phrase is something of a shape-shifter, too. I hope I used it in a proper context, and that Suzanne will let me know if I didn't.

Al

I found growstones in a local nursery (Best Feeds) in Pittsburgh. I think hydroponic stores should have it. This is the first season I used it. So after next repot I will be able to say more about it. It is very light and feels like pumice. I am planning to buy a whole bag next year if it is still available locally.

This was originally planted in gritty mix, in full inland SoCal sun. I struggled to get it enough water, eventually removing some of the mix in the top half that wasn't locked up by roots. I added 1:1 Turface & bark, making sure to mix the first into the lower so to not create much of a layer. I changed the topping to straight bark. Big improvement a two summers later.

Dose of reality:

Growstone floats when inundated (a very few particles sink), which says that it's not openly porous - that most individual pores are isolated from other pores by walls impermeable to water, and it's water holding ability depends primarily on its irregular surface and surface porosity - just like perlite. There are 3 sizes of Growstone listed. The large size is not appropriate as a fraction of a solid grow medium. The middle size is also very large, ranging in size from 4-9.5 mm. For reference, and as a guideline, I consistently note that for best results the upper mineral soil particle size limit for gritty soils should be a maximum of 4mm or about 3/16", and 1/8" is better in a perfect world. The medium size Growstone ranges from about 3/16 to 3/8". That leaves us with the product called Gnat Nix, which ranges in size from .63 to 4mm, or from 2/100 to 3/16", so it contains a large fraction of fine material that would need to be screened out if it was to be used in a medium like the gritty mix, which derives a great deal of its value from controlled particle size.

It's reusable, so that is a plus if you can find a reason to use it in the first place. If the grower's aim is to decrease water retention, a product like crushed granite or perlite would be a better choice (cheaper, reusable, does the same job). If the intent is to increase water retention, there is a large selection of superior products that are less expensive, hold more water, and offer some significant CEC benefits Growstone cannot claim. There is actually a product on the market (Haydite) that is available (just recently) in an appropriate particle size and offers roughly the same physical properties as Growstone, but costs only a fraction of what Growstone costs.

That puts in front of us the simple question of what reasons are there to use this product other than the ideological one, that it is made from recycled class? Glass has no CEC. That is to say it has no ability to hold nutrients - they wash out of the soil straight away, except for nutrients at attachment sites provided by particles other than Growstone. It is pH neutral, so use of the product as a significant fraction of media tends to preclude the use of dolomite as a liming agent. It is much more expensive than other products with more favorable particle size and either greater or less water holding ability.

And what about that water holding ability? From their website we can clearly see that the product is not one that would logically be chosen for it's ability to hold water. An answer to a question about Growstone's "drier nature", offered by the Growstone team, says, "Growstones [sic] drier nature also help suppress root diseases such as
Pythium. Also allows for faster recovery from human mistakes that lead
to Blossom [sic] end rot (BER) for example [they don't say how, but a reduction in water retention can facilitate Ca uptake, which is presumably where they were headed]. These characteristics facilitate
crop management compared to substrates with high water holding capacity
which water content takes longer to change [sic]."

A poster upthread laments that because "...... half of the citrus planted in the Al-approved gritty-like mix actually died". Presumably it must be the fault of Al and the mix that person made and Al gave a nod to, with grower error having no potential to be causal. What the heck is an "Al-approved gritty-like mix", anyway? If I look at an image supplied online and say, "Yup, that should work", am I forever married to the performance of anything planted in that mix? Scheech. If I kill a plant, that's the end of it. It's no one's responsibility but my own.

When a grower dismisses, out of hand, a "gritty-like mix" concoction for lack of water retention, it says that he sort of put his faith in a recipe substituted for another that others found well-suited to their plant's needs w/o really understanding the recipe is meant to represent a singular way to embody a concept that can be embodied via an infinite ratio/variety of components. The water-holding capacity of "a gritty-like mix" can be increased significantly by increasing the volume of Turface or a Turface substitute like calcined DE while proportionately decreasing the volume of grit. To my way of thinking, tossing the entire concept out the window before it's actually implemented isn't a reasoned (sounds much more like frustration to me) response - especially when the exit path leads right back to roughly the same methodologies that led him to the alternative concept in the first place.

Edited to say: When I read what Greg said immediately above. I thought to myself - this is the kind of person who will be successful growers in spite of the adversities they encounter.

Often, a gritty mix isn't made with the same ingredients the basic recipe is designed around, and that can change its physical properties substantially. Greg understood the concept, so knew how to remedy having to water so often w/o abandoning a perfectly legitimate concept. The next time Greg builds a soil, he'll know enough to adjust his original mixture ratios to increase the volume of water-holding ingredients and decrease the volume of particles that decrease water retention. Or, if the physical properties of his ingredients change, he'll also know how to adjust for that change.

Al

I just got back from Root Down and they do have Grow Stone in all sizes. They have a size between the medium and the Gnat Nix though - and the Gnat Nix is a bit smaller than what you list I think, Al, at least the bags I've used. Gnat Nix is closer to regular nursery Perlite than the coarse or extra coarse. The small Grow Stone is about on par with Gritty Mix, on eyeballing it. I wish now that I had taken a picture, since it seems to be either a new size product or one uncommon.

I can verify that it floats and is very hydrophopic. I use the Gnat Nix product - or have done in the past. This winter should be the last one I use it though, hopefully. ^_^

Hydro growers love it. So it must have its proper application. However, speaking only for myself, I would prefer to learn and understand to properly apply the principals of one tried and true method first, and once I am firm in that, only then should I try to experiment.

"Jane I think it's rude when you insult the people I truly respect here."

Where did I do that? I tried to give my way of growing...take it or leave it. It works well for me.

"you have accused me of being a 'follower'.

Where?? I didn't address you or even mention you. You addressed me first. Your name was never mentioned by me until AFTER you posted accusing me of things I didn't do.

Nonsense!

There are different 'strokes for different folks.' All should be allowed to to offer their growing styles without criticism. Its a big world.

I think Al does a good job at what he does. But life is full of variables and differences. All should be welcome without being shunned.

I like to offer growing advice that I feel is helpful. I should be able to post wherever I feel appropriate....just like anyone else. All should be welcome.

Jane

Thank you Al and Rina: we usually mean either 'best of luck' or 'give it your best shot' when we say ganbatte kudasai. Either way, it implies we have faith in you and is taken as a positive encouragement! I have found Japan to be a very positive environment as well as encouraging persevering in the face of adversity. Important for gardeners, in my opinion! Suzanne

All should be welcome" seems a noble thought, meaning that wherever people gather, the body of the gathering should
support an all-inclusive attitude toward anyone who feels like
being a part of the group. Right off the bat, we can see problems
with that thought - like pessimists in The Optimist's Club, a Hell's Angel in The Bicycle Built for Two Club, and Justin Beiber in any kind
of club I can think of. All welcomes are provisional, offered in faith that you'll put your best foot forward. When you don't, you violate the faith invested in you and the welcome is rescinded because people get touchy when their faith is violated. Even food kitchens or homeless shelters do not welcome all the hungry and homeless because some are too disruptive.

Ben Franklin was a pretty sharp guy. He said that "Guests,
like fish, begin to stink after 3 days". Since we can be
pretty sure he didn't mean that literally (at least not about the
guests), we can probably assume Ben was saying, "If you're not
careful, you can wear out your welcome in a hurry." Given the
number of times we've heard others allude to that idea during our stay on this
planet, it must hold more than a fair amount of
truth. So, it would seem that a welcome isn't a right - more like a
privilege. Since we're all guests here, we must conduct ourselves
in a manner that ensures neither the host nor the body of the
gathering feels moved to countermand the provisionary welcome they
gave us. If we can't/don't/won't behave in a way that ensures our being welcome is viewed as a positive thing, it should be no surprise when the mat is pulled from under our feet; and it shouldn't it be
expected that a shrill demand that EVERYONE should be welcomed would be heard with favor
from all those gathered about. In short, the welcome that's extended
after we've been here long enough for others to take our measure
is the welcome we made for ourselves, and when we find ourselves unwelcome, it's better to look inward instead of seeking a favorite candidate to serve as whipping boy, because it's you, not the group that has work to do.

Also, opinions are not all created equal. Others tend to value
opinions that can be supported with fact and reason, not with more
opinions and fabrications filled with ad hominem attacks and denigration for anyone you disagree with. Opinions are not meant to be used as cudgels in forum settings, but you demand that yours be heard and accepted without question, even when it's blatantly obvious your opinions are actually verbal aggressions. Where I invite you to question anything I say because it opens up additional opportunities to get reliable information into as many hands as possible, and establishes in people's minds who knows their stuff and who doesn't, you demand that your opinions be awarded equal footing while failing entirely to offer anything resembling support. "It works for me" is an observation that is highly subjective, not support.

You have developed your own antagonistic phrases and the repetitive short pieces of advice you insert into an extremely high % of posts, even when the antagonistic material is completely off topic. Some of the advice offered has no potential to be helpful or to create any light; in fact, it's specifically designed to create heat, and you do it over and over, using the same hot button issues and phrases. You also camouflage these aggressions so when admin is called in for a look, the aggressions don't seem egregious enough to act on. The outcry you instigated against yourself on this forum last year had dozens of examples of these favored trolling tactics, and there wasn't a single day of strife that I saw on this forum from the day you disappeared until the day you reappeared with your well-worn habits.

You can attempt to discredit me or use whatever adjectives to describe me that you like. I don't care about that because it says more about you than about me. What I do care about is the fact that you shun all plant-related science and anything technical, you don't know how plants work, and you regularly post information harmful to the growing experience of others - on purpose - even when you know with certainty it's wrong. You do this for no reason other than to create friction - nothing positive EVER comes of it. Is it really to much to ask someone to contain one's self to a sphere of opinion that ends at the limits of their knowledge?

No one but you is culpable for the words we see in your posts. Too, you are responsible for your welcome and for how your opinions are viewed and accepted or rejected. No one can mount a serious disagreement when you're right, but we're all obligated to protect the growing experience of others when you're wrong ..... and especially when being "intentionally wrong" w/o regard for others and hiding behind feigned innocence are tools you're using to gain another pound of flesh from someone on your black list. You can stop people from being disagreeable (toward you) by finding something to write about that isn't abasing or intentionally inciteful.

Al