wisconsitom, yes, I too have reservations about clearing anymore land. With that being said, I do not have the resources or land availability to purchase any that is already cleared and believe that the ability to grow food is important. We are looking to do raise beds. My question was more about how much should be cleared to allow for adequate sunlight to a small area, rather than how big the actual garden should be. It may be too dependent on the actual land and therefore not really a suitable question for a form like this. Thank you for your response.

I would post this in vegetable gardening forum as well.

Where are you? Sun angle during the growing season may effect this to some degree. How tall do trees get in your area?

We are in western pa. The trees get pretty tall, approximately 50-60 feet on average.

Possibly some judicious limbing up could let the sunshine into the area for your veggies.

I'd do a bit of measuring of shadow lengths from your trees at this time of year to see how far the shadows currently reach. If you give yourself 20' or so of additional distance, I would think you would have not only enough sun for spring through late fall now, but also as the trees continue to grow for a number of years.

Do you have any recommendations for how to measure shadow lengths of there is no open area?

Find an area with a similar sized stand next to an open area.

Forget annual vegetables - they need calories (sunlight) and a lot of them to produce crops. Otoh, think about growing fruits such as juneberries, saskatoons, currants, rubus strawberries, damsons, sloes, elder, bullace, gages, crabapples, rowanberries and other hedgerow fruits,...and nuts - hazel, hickory, pecan, walnut, almonds filberts...and if you MUST grow veg. then think about permanent crops such as ninestar broccoli, asparagas and potherbs (garlics, mints, valerian, chamomiles, chervil, fennel, dill etc.). There has been an interest in Forest gardening in the UK - many books available but all agree on one thing - vegetables need sun. Permaculture, if you ignore the more cultish aspects, also has some good ideas for sustainable planting for produce...such as raised beds, muchroom and other fungii cultures and hugelkultur.

I have a small pocket wood - almost 6 acres...and normal digging is just not doable (tree roots) so you will need to be innovative and inventive. Go with nature - not fighting it...and look to tree crop, woody shrubs and permaplanting.

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Bravo Camp-a thorough and positive message.

How much sun does your lawn area get? That will give a tough idea of the direct sun any additional clearing might give you. How large is your lawn clearing? Could you keep just a part of it for grass and turn the rest into garden (assuming it gets direct sun)? I'd still lean toward Campanula's suggestions.

We moved into a similar situation. We chose a spot that more or less was a peninsula that jutted into the grass. "Clearing" may not mean more than one or two large trees. As said earlier it is about sun/angle and what trees you have. We have mostly burr oak. Most are old and rotting. Taking them down might be the best way to give vitality to your woods. Taking one down before it falls is very advantageous. We eked out a space large enough for growing what we can eat in a season. It will never be ideal but it works.

We cleared about a half acre of trees. After the trees leafed out, we cut a few more here and there, trees that still blocked the sun, mostly on the east side, to give us 6 hours of direct sun in most parts of the garden. It was well worth it since my garden is my sanctuary and sanity. We are surrounded by millions of acres of forest, so I feel OK about my little half acre cut down.

Some interesting plants grow in that field each summer. I like walking through it. We mow it once a year.

What do you use the lawn for? Can you put your raised beds there, and raise veggies and flowers instead of grass, or in some combination?

And it sounds like minimal produce production from the recently cleared forest. A field? Undoubtedly, the plants that are "interesting" and trying to grow back would eventually reforest that area. That's what it's trying to do, but the mowings interrupt the process. I hate to think an entire half-acre of woods had to disappear so that somebody could mow a field once a year. And this in a native plants forum "devoted" to woodlands? All the active posts deal with how to vanquish the native vegetation. What a joke.

And whatever susanzone5's state of satisfaction, it is a fact that forest land is disappearing at an alarming rate all over the eastern US. It's the little untold secret of current environmental disasters, hardly even mentioned, but ongoing every day.

Wisconsitom, don't take your frustrations and anger out here. Your judgements of people are not appreciated. Live your life on your land and do what you want by your own rules.

My mowed field is a haven for wildflowers, grasses, and other plants. Bees love it. Birds love the seeds over winter. Deer have their fawns there. In these mountains, there are natural fields all over the place that never revert back to forest. The fields have their own biodiversity.

I guess I should have been more specific. We do not have a lawn, per se. Its just moss and doesn't get much sunlight at any time. My house is the tiny brown speck in the middle of those trees. Basically the only place that gets any consistent sunlight is on the roof! I think a traditional veggie garden isn't in the cards.

Who owns the fields on the edge of the woods? Any chance you can have your garden out there?

We own a 12 acre woods and a cabin in the MN/Canada border country within almost 4 million acres of state and federal Superior National Forest. I just had it logged for aspen and some spruce for saw logs. I am in the process of further clearing an area to accommodate 6 raised beds. I don't care if it ends up being 1/2 or an acre, or 2 if I end up wanting to do more with my gardens.

I wouldn't mind hiring someone with a bulldozer to push out roots and stumps, but have decided to use raised beds with heavy mulching, as well as annual trimming and brushing to establish and maintain my garden opening.

Don't hesitate for a minute to do what you want with your land. I couldn't agree more with susanzone5. The bio-diversity provided by logging, clearing, and especially the creation of edges within forests is highly beneficial to a number of species of plants, insects and animals.