hmm, if I'm not mistaken the thermador dw are bosch??? you could cross post this in the home web appliance forum

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/appl

My 10 year old Bosch works great only with previous rinsing before loading. Been that way from day1.

We pretty much use Bocsh & Asko exclusively in all of our projects. We have not had problems or issues. FYI, my appliance specialists have told me Thermadors are an upgraded Bosch.

Mine is eleven yrs. old. It's been great! I do the same as gustaruygers.

Happy with our Bosch.

I am on my 2nd Bosch the last one is still going strong in my old house , i run a catering biz from my home and the old one is 17 yrs old had 1 minor repair the one I have now is 10 yrs old never seen a repairman. I sometimes do 5 or 6 loads a day

Recently moved into a home with a 16 yr old Bosch. What I don't like about is that it is much smaller than the Kenmore Elites I have had previously and so I don't get as much stuff into it.

ACM- I also have that smell between washes. What I've read that it could be a problem with the plumbing and how it was installed. I'm going to be investigating this more. I think Bosch customer service isn't giving you the right information..

I've had two Bosch -- both lower end. Both cleaned really well. Doing a reno and getting a Bosch 800 w/ third rack and more fold down options. Expect it will also perform well. Quiet and dependable. Love them.

we really like the 3rd rack for silverware... i had left it up to my husband, he is the loader.... but its not finicky at all and leaves all that extra space on the bottom rack, not needing the basket.

I have a Bosch dishwasher. I have never disliked an appliance before this awful dishwasher. I have two friends who have them and hate them, also. I purchased it because it was supposed to be quiet. It is quiet, however, it takes forever to wash the dishes. If you don't use the long cycle the dishes don't get clean. I would NOT recommend purchasing a Bosch!!

Yes, the drying cycle is long because little or no energy is being spent on heat drying. The dishes dry due to the heat generated by the hot water used in the washing.

Thank you all. I am going to look at them today. Belle, the long wash time does seem to be a concern for a lot of people. I did not know about Bosch owning Thermador. My Thermador is almost 10 years old and this is the first problem it has had (in my 2.5 yrs of ownership), but I hate the design of it. It feels so small, the thing beeps for hours once a cycle is done (so you don't want to run it at night), the detergent dispenser is a tad too small for pods, and you can never tell if it's low on rinse aid.

CF- I love my Bosch 800 series, same size you're looking at. Whisper quiet, great for our open living/dining/kitchen space. I can be standing right next to it and barely know it's on. It has a light that's cast on the floor to indicate that it's running and how much time is left in the cycle. Only beeps one short time when cycle is done, and the light on the floor also indicates when the cycle is finished.

The third rack is great- I use a lot of ramekins of various sizes (pre-prep), perfect for that plus long spoons, tongs, etc.

Long wash time isn't a problem for us. Our habit is to rinse things before loading, and except for a couple of heavy cooking days (holidays) we run almost exclusively the "Express" cycle. Done in 40 minutes, sparkling clean dishes.

EDIT: I don't put cutlery in the dishwasher, as that tends to dull edges, but the third rack can be good for people not as concerned by that. We have a mobile sharpening service- a former French chef who's comment is "Mon Dieu! Why would you spend that sort of money on knifes and then treat them like forks?" Cracks me up, but I listen.

our 2 year old bosch gives 3 sets of chirps when finished, about 2 min apart. easy to ignore but also easy to hear. generally we open the door and roll the racks out so everything dries in an instant from the heat of the water.

I have a Bosch. I like it. Ours does not have the third rack. I would suggest bringing a place setting of your dishes with you when you shop. My only complaint is there is not a good way to load my cereal bowls.

ladma- great idea to take dishes for shopping. I took the biggest pans I use regularly, but no dishes.

My husband, though, adjusted the racks on the top bin to fit our deep cereal bowls/bigger cups. Can you try that?

Our Bosch is probably 16 years old and still works like a dream. Most of my clients get Bosch as well.

Juanita, if I fit the bowls as you suggest, then they take up all the space, and I can't fit in as many coffee cups and glasses. The dishes fit better in the old Kenmore, but that was noisy and lasted only 3 years.
Maybe I just need new dishes!
I never put pots and pans, carving knives, or sterling flatware in any dishwasher.

Alright just went and looked at them but haven't pulled the trigger. Husband is really wanting to get another Thermador to match all the other appliances. I'm just having trouble justifying the higher price when the only thing it does differently than the Bosch we are considering (800 series) is it does have the salt water softener. Anyone have experience with the water softener feature? Our current Thermador doesn't have it and the only Bosch that does is the Benchmark series.

Everyone I know that has Bosch,,,,3 people .....love them

ladma- I think you just came up with a GREAT reason to go shopping for new dishes. :)

A note to those who commented about the end of cycle chiming being troublesome- you can turn it off. I called Bosch customer service and they walked me through the steps required.

Our Bosch is 18 years old and going strong. My husband replaced the computer board about 5 years ago....himself....easy peasy. Cleans my dishes unbelievable, quiet and no problems whatsoever.

Ted and acm, the smell in between is the garbage disposal backing into the dishwasher. Mine does this occasionally as the garbage disposal gets packed too full. I run the 10 minute rinse and hold and that takes care of it.

Belle, I do not use the long cycle and my dishes are amazing clean. I also have a water softener. Maybe since you and your friends are having difficulties, it is your water. I do not have to use any kind of finish rinse agent. My dishes are clean and no streaks whatsoever.

I love my Bosch DW. Have had it for 2 1/2 years now. Super quiet and gets even dishes with baked on food clean. Love the third rack for long utensils, flat items and plastic lids. Love that it's perfectly flat with my cabinets. The only issues I have are the long cycle time and the no heat drying.

We've had one for a few years now and love it! It's used daily, sometimes twice, no complaints! I would buy it again.

I thought that Bosch was a high quality brand, and installed a bosch range, range hood, refrigerator and dishwasher in my 2016 kitchen renovation. I will say that the appliances are attractive, and the DW is quiet. But in the first 6 months, Bosch had to come back 3 times to repair the dishwasher, as plastic parts kept breaking off by the handle area -- very abnormal 'wear and tear'.

Slightly off topic: NOW, the markings around the Bosch range temperature/burner dials (for burner and temp settings) are almost all worn off, when all I've used to clean the area is the stainless cleaner Bosch provided. Sadly, I am now out of warranty -- and it seems crazy that a range less than 1 year old would have this problem. EITHER STEER CLEAR OF BOSCH (!?) OR BUY THE EXTENDED WARRANTY WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

I use soap/water on writings/ temp area. Only clean on range.

Love my 5 year old Bosch dishwasher. And LOVE my three year old Bosch range.

The Bosch dishwasher at our residence has the water softener feature, but I no longer fill it, as we have soft water. Could be a Benchmark (not there to check); I had to special order to avoid the third rack. In Europe we had extremely hard water and I had to fill the water softener thing every couple months (it had an indicator).

I recommend going to a store and smelling inside the dishwasher. I read that if the smell bothers you in the Bosch, it won't go away and it did bother me.

I ended up with a Miele, which I generally like, very similar to a Bosch, without the smell. I has a third rack, and cleans fairly well. Maybe too well, it took the nonstick coating off of all my pans.

KitchenAid had one with a third silverware rack and if I had to do it again, I might have chosen that, because I think I liked how that one loaded more, but Miele is one of the highest reliability and I can live with my choice.

The third rack silverware is a seriously good feature. I don't miss the drying function from my American models. I don't mind not having a food macerator, because of how quiet the dishwasher ends up being, but I do find it inconvenient leaning in the dishwasher to add salt and clean filters, so I find I end up pre-rinsing to avoid changing the filter.

If I had something I miss, which some of the American models have, it would be bottle jets, because I have a few thermoses, which I use daily and I would rather have the jets clean them.

Hi all, just thought I'd update. We ended up ordering another Thermador...womp womp... Reason being it is, as others have pointed out, same company as Bosch and therefore supposedly just as good as the Boschs, although the "higher end" brand. We ordered the mid-level Thermador, with the chef's tool drawer that some of you mentioned you liked.

We were also big fans of the Miele in the showroom, but when we measured, it is seriously 4 inches more shallow than the Bosch/Thermador- a huge difference.

Of course the irony in all of this is that the Thermador we ordered is on backorder for an unknown amount of time and my old Thermador has not yet repeated its water-spewing behavior. Also, I read online a process for turning off the beeping that annoys me and supposedly I have now disabled it, but I haven't run the d/w again yet to see.

Thanks again!

I know you've purchased, so this is a general comment. I like my Bosch just fine, it washes well and is quiet (easy to buy quiet these days). Two things I like; the red light on the floor when it's running and the recessed handle.

I love my Bosch. It's quiet and I love having a third self for little things.

Have a Bosch it works great! Very quiet and no spots.

Does anyone know the specific Bosch models that are made in Germany?

I have one also and I love it. Never any trouble quiet and works well. Looks pretty too!

Is it made in Germany? Model?

There are no words for how much we hate our Bosch dishwasher (2 y.o.). It does not clean properly, my dishes and glasses all have developed a sort of film over them that won't come off, and it leaves everything gritty and dirty. It does not dry anything plastic, period. Even when I pull out the rack to let it air dry, my items don't dry. They only dry when I shake them off in the sink and then airdry them in a countertop dish rack. So so so over it.

I never ever wash plastic in dw! I use cascade complete. The dw has a rinse level digits 1-4. I set mine on 4.

JM you must have a lemon.

I don’t kneel at the alter of Bosch, DWs generally do the job.

Bosch has had phenomenal customer service with regard to the recent power cord recall. I had a serious problem with the 3rd party servicer, and Bosch rose to the occasion and took care of the problem. Happy customer here. I will always consider their appliances when future purchase come up.

JM, what you are describing is not the dishwasher. It is either your water or your detergent.

I would suggest you try a different detergent. And then, a finisher like jet dry. I would also consider getting a water softener.

The film that won't come off is etching because your water is so hard.

We've had our Bosch dishwasher for about 3 months now and it's by far the best we've had in many ways. The loading racks, the sound level, the appearance, and very effective cleaning are all beyond our expectations. The touch pad takes a few minutes to get familiar with, but once you do it's very intuitive. Of course this is not a long term review, so ymmv, but so far so good. Ours is the SHXM98W75N which we purchased from Plessers and self installed.

Note: We have used only tabs, mostly Cascade, and no issues.

Bosch Tech told my sister to only use powder Cascade and fill cup no more than half way. No Tabs or liquid gels. She hasn't had a problem since. She was having problems from the beginning but was using Tabs. Tech said Tabs are too much detergent for the amount of water these machines use.

I have a Bosch that I use Finish Powerball Tabs and have absolutely no problem. I do have a soft water conditioner. I use to live in another state with hard water and did not have a soft water conditioner and etching took place on all my glasses. It didn't matter what or how much detergent I used. My friends who had soft water conditioners did not have a problem.

As far as the drying, it is a fact that without a true heater element in the dishwasher that plastic does not dry. It's the nature of the beast and the way the manufacturer meets the "energy savings." You will always be hand drying them. As far as your other items, you can't open the door shortly after it runs it's cycle. If you are doing this, try letting the dishes dry for a couple of hours in the dishwasher before you open it. The steam is the way the dishes now dry and if you let all that escape it doesn't have a chance to do it's job.

Now that all being said, I hate my Bosch because the tines don't fit my dishes very well and I can't get as much into it as my previous Kenmore's. Plus, it's an older model that develops a smell in it within 24 hrs of running it. It's a known problem that Bosch won't acknowledge but seems to be a non-issue in newer models. This will be my last Bosch and can't wait for it to die...

I rinse dishes before putting in dw.

happyleg- shouldn't need to do that unless its bones. I never rinse and it's very rare that there is anything left and its rare if I find anything in the filter. They say the temp of the waters high heat dissolves it. And most dishwashers will heat the water to the appropriate temp before running.

mimimomy-don't you find that lower drawer rather low to the ground? Friends have had FP drawer dishwashers but they were 2nd dishwashers in their kitchens as they said they don't hold much. When the Bosch dies ( it's 17 yrs old - don't they keep saying that appliances don't last now adays??) I'll take some of my glasses and dishes and check out the FP.

I heard that it don't smell. I think the manual. Perhaps check the trap or/and do a cycle of lemon juice.

Friends have a Bosch. It is astoundingly quiet, freaky quiet. But it has never cleaned well at all--real dirt left on items that hadn't even dried on. It takes a long time for a cycle. And it shows hard water buildup like crazy (stainless steel interior).

I have a Frigidaire. Cleans great, quiet-ish, white interior. But I hate everything else about it from an ergonomic/usability/design/layout aspect. There are 6 things wrong that could have been tweaked if they had just cared a little.

happyleg- are you referring to my smell in my dishwasher? If so, it isn't either of those. It is a design flaw- after wash, water traps down in the pipe and becomes swampy. Next wash flushes it out and the problem starts all over. Did lots of research to find the answer and also tried many things to clean it but it is the water being trapped that causes it. Thanks for the suggestions though :)