I haven't had particular trouble with the Russians. I got at least a dozen starts from a pair of leaves of a Russian variety.

OTOH, I've had particular American varieties that have defied sending up starts repeatedly.

Last fall i started about 25 mini African violets, and lost about 5-7.. Two-three of which were Russian. The Russians actually seemed equally hardy! Most of them grew like optimaras! :P

for ,me they propagate like roaches. The problem is that they do not always bloom right and even if when they do - the flowers can vary from way paler to way more intense shade than on a hybridizer photo. There was no selection done on repeatability on these plants. and it is not only my problem - you look at the Ukrainian or Russian forums... and the photos are all over the range.

The issue can be - the fresher the leaves the better they root... and if it took them 10 days to cross Atlantic...

The more you complain... the longer God lets you live..

Wow that is encouraging news! I would love to give it a try, the Russian variety are so beautiful- I don't suppose anyone is willing to give up a couple of leaves from their collection for a girl to experiment with?

They are so easy to find! Check around on eBay and Lyndon Lyon website and the violet barn website! You get guarantees when you go with a company like Lyndon Lyon. ;) and you know you're getting healthy stuff then! :D

Thanks, I will. Does anyone use rooting hormone or just water/potting mix?

I've had the best success just slicing the leaf on an angle and sticking it in potting soil and then bagging the whole thing.

It'd be cool to hear some more thoughts. ;)

I don't use rooting hormone.

I usually don't have a problem with my leaves rooting, ... just with plantlets appearing sometimes.

My rooted leaves will last for months, ... before they finally give up the ghost ... having started the next generation ... or not ....

While I can't compare Russians the way you guys can,,,,Irina is it really true? The more you complain, the longer you live??? Well then I am going to start complaining BIG time!! I have too many violets I still want to grow and I not enough time!!!!! (remember??? my Wish List???) Rosie

Ok I ordered my first starter Russian off eBay- Amadeus- let see how this goes. I will update

Good luck on your first Russian sniderta ! Rosie

PS. Oh,,,,just re-read my prior post !!! I think that is my first complaint! lol Rosie

Regarding Russians and the rest of them AVs - I just looked at ebay - and plenty of them - and not many bidders. I guess becaue of the early spring - there are plenty of sellers - but buyers didn't catch up yet.

If you find something you like - check if anybody else is selling it - I looked for Ness' Fantasy Gold - an there are 5-6 of them. 7 Rose Bouquet are selling - prices all over/

I'm wondering if anyone knows a bit more about the individual Russian/Ukrainian hybridizers. Are there any that are really reliable? I'm starting to wonder if they are a gimmick, because I see pictures of unbelievably gorgeous plants, but then when I buy one or see other online pictures, it appears to be a completely different plant. Is this true of most Russian and Ukrainian hybrids, or are there some that are better than others?

My first heartache was LE Esmeralda. I later heard that LE hybrids are extremely unstable. A few days ago I came across RS Ice Rose (Ledianaia Roza) at my local garden center and, though the bloom was still beautiful, it looks nothing like the other online pictures of Ice Rose. Don't worry, I won't go into all the minute differences. Suffice it to say that I am indeed picky.

So what are some of your experiences with different hybridizers? Are there any that don't regularly revert or change? Any names of hybridizers who generally produce more stable hybrids?

I don't know if they are reliable. I bought my first Russian/Ukrainian (Copper Horseman) from the Ann Arbor Sale. It was just opening the buds and they were beautiful but not at all what was pictured. Now everyone knows, I don't put much stock into the very first blooms. I always sit back and wait for the next flush. So we wait.

But from what I do hear most people say those varieties are not stable. As you can see that didn't stop me from buying one. I don't know. Rosie

Ooh, I never really thought about it but you make me wonder. I have SK (Alexei Kuznetzov) and N (Nadezhda Berdnikova) miniatures that are blooming true. But I haven't had much experience with standards. I do have Blue Mist that blooms true.

I'm curious what other people have to say.

I usually purchased from violet barn and lyndon lyon. I bought Ian minuet, blue mist, rs aquamarine, pink water color, sky azure. The flower all look like the pictures.

I've heard a lot about Ian Minuet, and wonder if it's more popular because it's more stable. I realize it really shouldn't matter if you still like the way a plant looks, but it seems like there should be some standards enforced to help maintain credibility in the hybridizing business.

I've also wondered if we shouldn't be propagating Russians, Ukrainians, and fantasies by bloom stalks and suckers rather than leaves. I guess that would really slow down business and raise cost though.

For those of you who belong to AVSA, do they ever discuss these things in the magazine?

Good thoughts. No one likes to fall in love with a plant and not get the bloom they pay for. Just my thought. Rosie

In the sad case of LE Esmeralda, neither the blooms nor the leaves looked anything like the pictures, nor did they match the written description. It's possible that I just got a really bad one though, because it promptly became sickly and eventually croaked. :(

I will actually disagree with Irina's comment above about Russians being all over the place in 'repeatability'. Their range of bloom colors, sizes, and petal counts for the same hybrids actually have a LOT to do with temperatures. Russian Av's are predominantly grown a great deal COOLER than most American grower spaces (frequently in the 40 to 60 degree range F) and simply put our cultivation is considerably different.

Therefor it may seem that they do not bloom true or consistently. I've been growing a number of Russian hybrids for a good while now and I find that they are merely temperature sensitive. Often going pale or white in cold conditions (brings out the yellows great!) but growing much darker (or loosing the yellow) in warmer conditions. I have one Russian that is purple in warm temperatures and brilliant yellow in chilly conditions! If it repeats those cycles every year on cue, that's not inconsistency. Jolly Sunchaser does the same thing. Yellow for me in winter but merely white flowered the rest of my year.

Under the /right/ conditions I'm usually able to bring around a tempermental 'off' blooming Russian (or any other hybrid) around to performing as 'advertised'. The real problem is that buyers have a rigid concept of what the plant should look like and lack education about temperature and PH. Each growers conditions vary and so it's only reasonable that the plants also vary with the conditions.

There are also a number of American hybrids that are also very changeable with temperature such as the Optimaras with white and colored flowers. They may not be as dramatic as Russians for some but in my growing conditions that vary from the 40's in winter up to the mid 80's in summer, I get to see those extremes repeated every year from white flowers to deep, dark rich blooms with no white at all. That doesn't mean my Optimara's have gone bad, it's temperature and they come right back around again when conditions reverse. For me, usually only in spring or autumn do they look like the 'ideal' prettiest version buyers expect. It's not the plants at fault so much as people's ignorance and expectations. Many a plant gets pitched into the trash for not blooming true when all it needs is to be moved to a low shelf in the basement instead of being grown in a warm upstairs bedroom. You'd be surprised what 20 degrees can do! It's also true of my streptocarpus and my sinningia which can vary fairly widely due to temperature or humidity.

To the original question, however, I find Russians very easy to propagate from leaves. Like any other hybrid there are ones that are stupid easy, and some that are more difficult, but I wouldn't say they are any harder than other hybrids. Enjoy them!

And that's not even bringing variegated foliage into the discussion, which is also very changeable due to temperature and light intensity.

Oh, very true! Good point, though I haven't run into a Russian yet that has done that to me. It is good to pay attention to what hybridizers are producing. I also like to do internet searches on every variety I'm interested in. -If- a number of photos come up, then I can compare them to see how much variation the plants are throwing. If I really love it in /that one/ photo but not so much in the others? I won't buy it. Very often somebody will get one great, lucky shot but the plant in various other conditions simply lacks that consistent quality. That's true of any hybrid though from anywhere.

This thread on Russian/Ukrainian violets has been helpful for me. I have a plant of SK First Love that I have been struggling with. I’ve had to treat a couple of times for mildew, removed lots of tiny suckers, and some of the leaves rotted where they touched the soil or the edge of the pot. After repotting it and putting it on wick watering a month ago, it looks perkier, but the flowers are not developing well. They are tiny almost embryonic whitish flowers instead of the normal-sized pink ones it had when I got it from Violet Barn. After reading Hyn Patty’s post, I wonder if temperature is my problem — it’s been quite hot in my growing room this summer. I now have a second Russian micro mini (both were freebie plants from Violet Barn), so I’d like to learn to handle them better. The new one is N Spring. I wish Violet Barn would send me something else besides these micro minis, but of course I’m not about to complain about free plants! Can anyone offer me any specific tips on growing these?

I checked on the Russian forums - N- Vesna (N-Spring) is a slow grower, loses the pansy shape of the flowers if the light is too high - or in your case probably your intuition is correct - too hot.

Sk- Pervaja Ljubov (SK First Love) - easy and fast grower, gives lots of suckers.

Looks like Russian growers keep them on wicks and under lights. Both varieties have a tendency to sucker - so you need to keep your sucker - plucker ready and consistently remove them as soon as you can. Variegated minis are quite challenging and you need to work on powdery mildew. People have good success using Immunox Spectracide fungicide - you can get it in Home Depot.

Good luck

Irina

Oh I just love Sk- Pervaja Ljubov (SK First Love) !!! Such a beautiful color! And I love semi mini's, mini's and micro mini's!!!! It is going on my Wish List for sure!!! (as soon as I find my pencil!!!!) Rosie

My SK First Love is coming into bloom for the first time. Such a slow grower, leaves so tiny. Can’t imagine trying to leaf propagate this little micro. Here’s my pic of it.

You definitely have the gift ...

Those are cuties! I certainly agree that several of my Russians /hate/ to get and stay warm and they up and die easily in my summers. But come winter? They couldn't be happier.

They are kinda cute, though I hardly appreciated it when it first arrived. What am I supposed to do with such a tiny plant anyway, lol.

I'm thinking Irina's pic of SK First Love has been mislabeled. Those leaves are way too large for this micro mini.

i agree with Hyn Patty on different growing conditions - most of Russia lies on latitude of Canada - with cool summers (or at least cooler then in US).

mostly inland, so humidity is low.

so we really are much more south, though drier in the west then most of russia (excluding non-european part) and more humid in the East then anywhere in Russia with exception of St Petersburg (but it's really very cool there for the most part as it's very far north).

and if you don't grow under lights - you need to consider northern russian light - it's much weaker then anywhere in US.

so i would think that russian varieties would do best in the conditions of New England, not too close to the coast :)))) - perhaps Lyndon Lyon greenhouses are closest approximation? being half way upstate NY?

also the fertilizers/soil mixes are much less standardized - so each hybridizer conditions are most likely unique. so i reason, for closest repeat of blooms it would be very helpful to know where exactly each russian/ukranian hybridizer is located and what soil mixes and fertilizers they use and on what schedule...

not to mention local water pH :(((((...

Most of observations are on the button. Except Russian houses are not in 40s. We have central heating there too, you know... I think the apartments - are at their lowest in spring - when you like it or not but on April 15 (in Moscow) the central heat gets turned off - and doesn't matter - what is outside - it doesn't get turned back till October. But if it gets to be 60F - everybody gets their little electric heaters, turns the gas on in the kitchens and gets by. The worst time is - 2-3 weeks in mid summer - it can be high 90s - and not very many people have airconditioners - so both people and AVs suffer. The rest of the time - the summer is mild - around 65-75, often rainy and cloudy - probably similar to Sweden. Last several years - the global warming made the weather in Europe really crazy - my cousin in Saint Peterburg said that it rained all summer, was very chilly - while people in Western Europe were suffering from unbelievable heat and drought. Moscow had hurricane winds that destroyed tens of thousands of trees in town...

What is different in culture - people use high quality European made soils mixes with slow release fertilizers, not like we do - use weak solution of fertilizers when watering. Water mostly comes from rivers - so it is not hard.

I think all serious growers grow under lights - on the Russian forums there is a lot of discussion how to set LED strips. Just not enough natural light - especially in winter.

Regarding the size of SK-First Love - I looked through a whole bunch of photos - and it seems the one I posted is a maximum size for a mature plant. Probably comparable with a popular American variety Shirl's Hawaiian Lei. Small plant, slow grower, beautiful variegation and large blossoms - I would say - a very small miniature.

"What is different in culture - people use high quality European made soils mixes with slow release fertilizers, not like we do - use weak solution of fertilizers when watering"

irina,

would you know the specifics of their mixes and/or fertilizers? just curious, what they got so-o high-quality that we don't ;)...?

or may be a link to a good russian Av forum? - then i can hunt for hints myself :).

Petrushka -

Here we are

Klasmann TS1 (# 419 ) Germany, Maker Klasmann-Deilmann GmbH.

Fialki.ru

many thanks - wealth of info!

here's the page describing sev formulations of Klasman, including TS1.

http://www.fialki.ru/node/12513

i am just wondering why would that be considered better then what we got here ;)?

meaning their blooms are bigger and better due to better culture (mix, ferts, light)?

so TS1 is based on white peat (?) with addition of granutaled clay (small granules) with iron and magnesium added and npk is 7:5:9 ratio (140mg 100mg 180mg per 1 litr). am not sure how to 'translate' into percentages like on schultz av plus 8-16-9 (with manganese and iron and zinc,etc). oh, and wetting agent is added too.

the ratio vs percentages explanation is here, but i still find it confusing..

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1416834/npk-vs-npk-ratio

because it makes a diff if u feed with 8-16-9 or half (4-8-4.5) .

what i am getting at - do they feed them more heavily ?

also under lights AV's will take more fertilizer i presume? better light = more feed?

also this is fertilizer in the mix - and then there is additional liquid feed necessary, once the soil mix is exhausted...but then again if you transplant ev 6 mo - new substrate will top up the ferts a little (third of the pot)...

so it gets even more hairy...

is it the granulated clay that makes it better then? but we use a lot of perlite for similar function.

and more: is this for top watering and needs to be lightened up with perlite for wicking?

i know, i'm a bit lazy here - i'll poke around the forums until i get my answers.

but perhaps you already know and can tell us? roughly at least :))))

I frankly do no know if our methods are better than theirs or theirs are better because we do not have this Klasmann soil mix here to compare. And I am doubt that their blossoms of the same varieties are bigger then ours. I am sure they fertilize after the initial preload is exhausted.

I do not think that top watering is good, bottom watering is better because it doesn't compact the soil. Seems that Klassman is a good breathable soil, it probably has better overall ingredients than Promix BX a lot of growers use here.

It seems to me that it all depends on the skill of the grower - same here - same there. Fialki.ru have a lot of top growers in the membership - but they also have newbies and so-so growers - like any other group.

There is no magic soil and magic fertilizer that is going to make them bloom like no tomorrow. It is more about providing optimal conditions in your house, adjusting them when necessary - and regular repotting. Basically consistent care. It is all doable and you can grow the same varieties with a same size blossoms here.

You go to an AV show - and some of the plants are so beautiful, so well grown - it just takes your breath away. At the National AVSA show - they will have hundreds of top level plants - at the AV Council - dozens. At the club show - you never know - sometimes great plants, sometimes mediocre. Plenty of Russian varieties lately.

It is a hobby - and each hobbyist invests as much time and resources for his hobby as he or she is comfortable with. Some put lights, buy thousands of dollars worth of shelving from Indoor Growing Supply, purchase an expensive RO water filtration system and strive to be winners of anything and everything. And some grow 10 plants on the windowsills and are perfectly happy watching them grow and bloom. The quality of the plants naturally is not comparable - serious growers produce top plants, window growers often have nothing but dawgs. But they probably have more fun... less obsession, more enjoyment.

I talk too much...

I.

Hi Irina! No no no you don't talk too much. You talk a lot of knowledge and sense.

I am one of the "10 plants on the windowsill" hobbyists. I always wish for a big room with lots of growstands but alas,,,not to be. At least not in this lifetime, maybe the next! I still dream, wish big, but in the meantime,,,make myself happy with windows and tables! (Someday I just may win that lottery!!! lol)

Some people swear they can't grow a certain violet but can grow a different one. Probably true. But I find there is always some small difference they are doing that they are not aware of. Hey it happens. We all do it. Me also!!!

To coin a phrase, "you get what you give". Applies to life all over and to simpler things like growing violets. Different violets have quirks. Half the fun of the hobby is experimenting, learning quirks, overcoming what obstacles you can and just enjoy yourself! If you get to the point of hundreds of violets, shows, sales etc., good for you! As long as you are still happy doing it!

Have fun, take your time, listen to the plants talking to you, (they do that if you listen close enough) and if at first you don't suceed,,,try, try again! Good luck!!! Rosie

Rosie - with a friend like you - we will overcome!

Everybody has a plant or hybridizer that just not working for his/her conditions. The rest 9999 do work.

Thank You

First snow of the season today - so far it is mostly melting but the grass in the back is covered and the roses are bending to the ground under wet snow. WIll be 22F tonight. Warm up again in a couple of days.

Aww,,,thanks Irina! My pleasure. But,,,,,SNOW?????? OMG where do you live??? It is going to be in the 70F to 80F this week! We won't see snow until, oh I don't know, maybe sometime in December! Maybe a few flakes in November, but sometimes not. Sheese!!! SNOW??? ewe! Rosie

Family out in WY have been getting snow for weeks now.

Personally, while I do use a little Dyna Grow on occasion and start with a mix that has some fertilizer already in it, I also mix in some worm castings and a touch of bat guano with charcoal for my gesneriads with repotting every few months.

For non-wicked plants that I do not repot regularly, I am a fan of a manure tea drench every few months . For me, the natural organics with lots of trace minerals (I also add kelp powder) seem to do a lot better than prepared fertilizers. Especially for finicky heavy feeders like triple layered adeniums that must open very large, heavy blooms, and for my coffee trees.

I think there is something to it, if you can find the right balance that works best for you. While there are a lot of excellent prepared fertilizers out there, it is hard to find any of them that have everything plants require. Boron is often not listed.

Hi Hyn!!!! I figure this way, if there is fertilizer in my MG potting mix, being on wicks it probably doesn't last long. And I am not faithful on fertilizing as it is. I know,,,,, shame on me. I just keep forgetting! My poor plants. hmmm they deserve a better parent.

I don't like to fertilize a lot in winter because growth is slower at that time. I mean, once in a while I do, but not regularly. It is a wonder I can grow anything at all, but my sometimes haphazard ways work for me! Guess there is no perfect system. Rosie