Here we go...

Is this an advertisement?

Of course, we don't have a plant without epsom salt to compare with. Yawn. I threw a couple Cheerios on my lone tomato the other day, and it looked great for days afterwards. Yep, I swear, Cheerios are the ultimate fertilizer.

Epsom salt is not a fertilizer. It can be a good way to deliver magnesium and a little sulfur if your plants are deficient, but I wouldn't personally just give my tomato plants epsom salt for no reason.

The growth is likely coincidental. Sometimes, plants, especially the young ones, just have periods of seeming dormancy then suddenly have growth spurts. I didn't check on my plants for a couple of days because it was raining, and when I went out yesterday, they'd practically doubled in size. No epsom salt or fertilizer was involved recently. Probably just good old nitrates from rainwater and good, moist soil conditions conducive to root expansion delivered at a time when the plants were already prepared to undergo a growth spurt.

I would be cautious with the epsom salts. Cal and Mag need to be in balance, as they compete for uptake. Too much mag can deprive the plant of needed calcium and you might end up with blossom end rot.

Can only reiterate what GB said. So sorry but you have not discovered the "ultimate fertilizer" nor any fertilizer at all. And the side effects you may have to deal with now if you have done multiple applications could easily outweigh any benefits.

Please do your plants a big favor and put the epsom salts away. And far from being "giants", whether they are even normal in size all depends on what variety they are?

Dave

Hi Sara,

Don't mind us, we just finished a thread where somebody just lied and tried to scam the forum with his friend's astronomically priced product making believe he was someone innocent who just discovered the "ultimate fertilizer", too.

When I read your plant went "absolutely insane", I just cracked up imagining what an insane tomato plant looks like (probably mine). Keep up the enthusiasm and keep us posted on the progress of your plants, especially the little guy - what variety is he?

Epsom salt is good for a lot of things, including tomatoes, but subject to the warnings above and contains two major plant nutrients, and is one important ingredient used in the Miracle-Gro Tomato fertilizer many people have good results using. You want a well balanced fertilizer for your tomatoes so the plant gets all around great nutrition. Epsom salt sure can green up leaves sometimes, but deep green leaves don't usually mean more tomatoes. Did you just try it on your tomatoes this week? I see you posted a week ago asking about it, and people told you basically everything about the limitations of its use that was posted all over again in the present thread.

Cactus forum - Epsom Salt ???

I really like your little raised bed and the care you put into it. Looks like you discovered epsom salt in the Cactus forum after doing some reading. So cool you are branching out to be interested in tomatoes. They are absolutely insanely addictive to grow :-) It doesn't take a miracle to grow them, just some old fashioned TLC!

The following is the conclusion of a Master Gardener's summary of the use (or not) of epsom salt with tomatoes and in the garden. I recommend you read it!

Miracle, Myth, or Marketing... Epsom Salts

Conclusion in that publication:

"Bottom Line

The urge to use common household products as garden fertilizers and pesticides is compelling for many consumers who want simple, cheap approaches to landscape management. However, the use of any chemical in a landscape should be thoughtfully considered:
• Is it necessary?
• Can it cause damage?
The science behind the use of Epsom salts is only applicable to intensive crop production in situations where magnesium is known to be deficient in the soil or in the plants. It is irresponsible to advise gardeners and other plant enthusiasts to apply Epsom salts, or any chemical, without regard to soil conditions, plant needs and environmental health."

Cheers

PC

In Sara's defense, epsom salt is hardly some kind of mysterious, proprietary substance that only she can sell us at a very steep price. I don't think she's trying to scam anyone but is just excited about something she thinks she's discovered and wants to share.

Sara --- I use Epsom Salts trice a year (just a tablespoon per gallon of water as foliar spray --- for all 30 plants). Three tablespoons for 30 plants over 3 months is not much, but, my grandmother did it for 40 years, and she had the best tomatoes in the neighborhood.

Gorbelly --- how about some pics. Excited to see what you are growing.

NC --- same for you. An update (like your videos).

Kevin --- how is the other garden?

Let me know under which topic you'll post.

Thanks,

Tony

Wow , I didn't think I'd get such harsh comments just by posting a photo sharing what I'm growing . I'm not comparing anything , I'm simply showing my tomato plants .
I am VERY aware that epsom salt is not a fertilizer , hence why I put the quotation marks .
Also , this is not an advertisement . I'm not going to advertise something that I personally know is not helpful - simple as that .
Thank you for those who offered the helpful advice . Everybody could benefit from it .

Sara --- for Zone 5, your tomato plants are large indeed. Just note that Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt) is to be lightly used to add just a trace of 2 elements (Magnesium and Sulfur).

Here are some of ours, and we are in zone 7a.

Tony

Your plants look extremely full . Props to you :)
At least I'm doing something right with my tomato plants . As long as it's alive , I'm proud of myself . I don't necessarily have a green thumb sometimes ;)

I think there's a generic available.

Sara, I think the point here is that throwing something on a plant and saying that it's a great "fertilizer" because the plant grows "absolutely insane" really doesn't mean anything unless it's sitting next to an identical plant that didn't get that treatment that didn't grow absolutely insane. It's great that your plants are growing well, and you must be doing something right, but saying that one particular thing is the cause of that is simply not credible without some control. Plants just do different things in different years, sometimes even insane things, even when we treat them the same.

By all means, do that experiment with two plants, and report back. It would be appropriate to get a soil analysis done as well, so chemically we know what the score is.

BTW, I think St. Louis is 6a.

"Wow , I didn't think I'd get such harsh comments just by posting a photo sharing what I'm growing . I'm not comparing anything , I'm simply showing my tomato plants. "

Then it is always best to just show your plants and tell about them and not use such hyped up terms as "giant", "ultimate", insane" etc. when you post. Such claims using highly inflated terms are bound to trigger negative responses. In a format such as this it is the tone of the original post that sets the tone for the replies.

Personally I am happy that you know epsom salts is not a fertilizer as you'd be amazed how many claim that it is when they post about it here.

As the search will show, it is a subject that comes up often here with all sorts of glorious but invalid claims attached to it, especially by new growers. So it is only normal that responses would first assume your's was just another of those.

Dave

BTW, I think St. Louis is 6a.

Good point Dan, Sara's plants are 6a!

I'm very impressed that a person as young as Sara would be interested in growing tomatoes and other responsible things close to the earth after seeing the current state of the Internet! We really do not have much participation of young people in this forum and this one turned out to be a keeper.

You never know what a person's been through that might bring them to the magical, but absorbing world of growing tomatoes, something that will stay with them for the rest of their life and in 50 years bring fond memories. These plants are pretty awesome. Sara, take more credit yourself for doing a good job driving your plants insane so far :-)

Cheers

PC

I think you are doing a lot of things right. I like your bed and your spacing.

PC -- spot on!

A teenager using terms such as: awesome, insane, etc. --- should be expected, not ridiculed or put down!

My parents thought me at an early age that if you have nothing nice to say --- than, shut your mouth!

Tony

PupillaCharles: I'm very impressed that a person as young as Sara would be interested in growing tomatoes and other responsible things close to the earth after seeing the current state of the Internet!

The young are embracing gardening more than the previous few generations were at their age.

Young people get a bad rap. Millennials, for example, are way more into gardening and growing things than the boomers or gen X/Y. The problem is, the economy we previous generations have left them make it much harder for them to own property where they can have gardens. They're striving in different ways to grow things, though. And they're rejecting the wasteful habits of past generations, like valuing lawns and caring only about qualities like a certain kind of neat, overly manicured aesthetic appearance ("HOA landscaping") when they do plant gardens. The concern with younger gardeners is more likely to be to plant edibles, ornamentals which are also edible, and plants that nurture native pollinators and wildlife.

It's fashionable among older people to declare the young inadequate and uniquely bad, but many millennials, despite having been dealt a bad hand, are embracing values that reject mindless consumerism and mindless accumulation of wealth and status.

@digdirt2 -- i honestly didnt believe ppl would act so harshly ... kinda makes me hesitant to post anything else , knowing i basically just got criticized && people are making jokes about it . its certainly unnerving .

@pupillacharites -- zone 5 is what the USDA site gave me when i typed in my zip code , so idk :/ && someone as young as me ?? im going to be 20 on august 1 , i sure dont feel young lol . honestly , i have just recently taken up gardening && trying new things - cause hey , you dont know whether you like it or not if you dont try ! its certainly better than being influenced by the media && the riots !

@hoosier40 -- thank you , i actually built it myself last spring :)


* I honestly do appreciate all of the advice everybody offers . But the 'sarcastic & rude' comments are very unnecessary .

Sometimes, first impressions go wrong. That's life. Letting it drive you away from places where you can learn a lot would be a shame. Especially since there's no real harm done by some sarcasm.

You should keep in mind that basically since the inception of the Internet, it's been a place for people to spread misinformation and shill unethically in many ways. People are just on their guard. Now that they know better, they won't hold their first impressions against you, as long as you don't hold your first impressions against them.

im going to be 20 ... i sure dont feel young lol

LMBO, if this^^^ doesn't prove my point :-)

This is a place to get good advise when you might really need it and show off your plants to people that can appreciate them and all your effort you make into growing them. The collective knowledge here is amazing and however it is delivered: Be tough. Most are not your ordinary gardeners, this is world class. Nobody is criticizing you now after you showed you are not a zealot, want to learn and all want to help you. You have good moral character and were obviously raised by great parents and it shows, even if I can't stand textspeak. tafn!

PS About your USDA zone, dark green is 6a and light green is 6b. USDA current (2012) map.

2012 USDA interactive map link

Cheers

PC

Yeah, there are still a lot of outdated maps out and about that show the older zone information. Most, if not all zones have 'warmed' (to be simplistic) to a higher number.

"@digdirt2 -- i honestly didnt believe ppl would act so harshly ... kinda makes me hesitant to post anything else , knowing i basically just got criticized && people are making jokes about it . its certainly unnerving . "

Sara - my apologies if any thing I said offended you. Despite Tony's comment, no ridicule or put down was intended by anyone.

Any jokes or comments that appeared so weren't directed at you personally but like PC said, a carry over from the many previous problem posts that used many of the same words.. After years here I admit to getting jaded now and then by some of the hyped up claims some will use in their posts. We spend time typing out a long polite, detailed reply only to then discover they were merely advertising some thing they stood to make money off of and could care less what we thought.

Have no idea how PC or Tony knew you were so young since you never mentioned that and I agree that, good or bad/right or wrong, hype seems to be normal jargon for teenagers and young adults today. But I do encourage you to keep in mind in future posts - and I do hope you remain and post more - to avoid it when possible. It can be a hot button for many. ;-)

So welcome to the forum.

Dave

Let me be clear (without being sarcastic). I have no problem with exaggerations. I love insanely, madly, outrageously growing plants. What my problem is (which quite frankly is the problem that I see routinely in gardening reports) is that the performance of an amendment, fertilizer, or technique CANNOT be credibly established unless that assessment comes with a control. That's just simple science. It's not just gardening. It's everything.

We have loads of people popping in here who are so excited about what they sprinkled on their plants, because the plants are just growing beautifully. THEREFORE, they say, everyone should sprinkle this stuff on their plants and they'll grow beautifully. No. No. No. Because so many other things have happened to those plants, some of which you're probably not even aware of.

It's fair to say, hey, I sprinkled this stuff on my plants, and they grow beautifully. I wonder if that was the cause of their beautiful growth. Yep, maybe. Maybe not. It's not well enough appreciated that many people sprinkle the same stuff on their plants and NOTHING happens. Maybe the plant keels over and dies. But no, that's not worth writing about. We never hear about that. So there is a powerful selection effect in reports that are produced. We want to write about something great that happens, and not something that doesn't happen..

But if you sprinkle the stuff on some plants, and don't sprinkle the stuff on other plants, THEN I want to hear what you've found by comparing them. That kind of experiment has real meaning for me.

Sigh. Please understand, Sara, this isn't about you. It's about how we need more good detectives. Thank you for spurring this overdue rant. Your excitement about gardening is wonderful, and I wish you best of luck in your efforts. I do suggest you get your soil tested, so when you pick up your chemical ammunition, you know what you're aiming at.

digdirt --- her profile....

Tony

https://www.houzz.com/user/sara-henderson66

Sara, so happy to see that you love gardening. I am impressed that you are looking for ways to help your plants grow better. Tomatoes are not the easiest plants to grow, so you are doing a great job!

I don't think epsom salts are a good way to treat BER. BER is specifically a calcium deficiency in the plant. Epsom salts supply magnesium, which your soil may lack, and you'll help your tomatoes if it does lack that. But such Mg deficiencies are pretty rare. In fact, I think it's understood that high magnesium levels in soil locks out calcium in plant uptake.

The only reason to apply epsom salt is if a soil analysis shows that your soil is clearly Mg deficient.

For me this is a learning place. Please stay and read and learn. Post
future pictures for us so we see the growth of your plants.

Patti, Something tells me if Sara wanted she could have used us for target practice ;-)

About your new raised tomato bed ...! Now you're outed. Let's see them pictures!

Cheers

PC

- Patti / growing any type of vegetable / flower is always a learning experience . you have to test methods to see which works better for where you live . once you have the hang of it , you're good to go . I'm very glad you're here , & learning ! learning new things & receiving advice never hurt anybody :) good luck to you , & your tomatoes !

Also , I'm very sorry I'm just now checking this thread , I've been super super busy with my online college classes . Plus family stuff . I want everybody to know that I DO appreciate the helpful advice everybody has to offer on this thread & as well as others . Thank you to ALL !!

Hey everybody , just a quick update on my tomato plants if anybody cares to take a look --

There are a TON of buds & baby tomato's , so if anybody eats tomato's I'd be glad to share some if you pay shipping ;) - I have no clue what I'm gonna do with all of them , surely we don't eat a lot of them & I'd hate to see them go to waste .

Hey Sara,

That's a pretty sight. Glad you're having so much fun growing. Looks like the one plant is still straggling but the other two are really pouring it on. Don't forget to remove the browning leaves near the soil because they can be a place near the wet ground mold and bacteria get a foothold and infect the whole plant.

What varieties are these - do you know?

Happy tomato sauce, tomato paste, & salsa time!

PC

PC -- ill have to look tomorrow to give you the exact name of each plant , i keep the little 'name tag' , haha . && yes , the one is still straggling , but quickly catching up . i got it later than the others ! as for the browning leaves , i did just remove them today while loosening the soil :)

Sara Henderson: i did just remove them today while loosening the soil

While chances of soilborne disease are low because you are a new gardener growing in new beds, just fyi for the future, disturbing the roots of established plants can greatly increase the likelihood of wilts because the damage it causes to roots creates openings for disease organisms, disturbs the biofilms created by colonizing beneficial organisms, etc.

This is also the reason why one should have stakes/cages/ground-anchored plant supports in place at plant-out, when they can be placed without cutting into roots, if at all possible.

Granted, 5b isn't a zone with rampant soilborne disease, but diseases that people in colder zones never had to worry about much before, like bacterial wilt, are creeping northward.

Also, some amount of soil settling in new beds is normal. The time to address it is after and before the growing season, through generous amendment with organic matter. Although, with tomatoes, you can always add more soil/compost/etc. on top, as tomatoes don't have a "don't bury past this point" line unless you have grafted plants.

Something here just re-reminded of a movie about some tomatoes that went ''absolutely insane''.

Gorbelly - I didnt disturb anywhere near the roots too much - they were plnted pretty deep , so i only loosened a bit of the top soil .

I have cages & the wooden stakes - as you can see , they didn't help too much . I've loosely tied some yarn/string around them to help hold them up - some of them are tied to the cage , just so the heavier stems aren't sitting in the soil , etc .

Also , I do add a bit more new soil on top of the old bc i know that the nutrients do run out .

Thank you for your info , & advice ! :)

Sara Henderson: I didnt disturb anywhere near the roots too much - they were plnted pretty deep

We plant tomatoes deep because they readily form new roots at the buried areas. These roots eventually form a network of fibrous roots, many of them pretty close to the surface.

This article shows how roots develop close to the surface as the plant gets older.

I think its great that you so happy with your tomatoes. What made them grow, what ever you say there yours, that's ok. enjoy the experience and the moment. I personally think that's what gardening is abt.

I have been absent for a while and missed this thread. I just read some of the early comments.

In agreement with Dave, gorbelly, .. PC et all, Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate ) is a good source of Mg. But Mg is a trace element not a fertilizers. Furthermore, too much of it can/may block Calcium intake, if I understand it correctly. I apply Epsom Salt regularly to moderation myself. I do this mostly early in the season during/before plant out. Mg in Epsom Salt is very quick acting, very much like nitrogen and thus you can see the effect in short time , GREEN, HEALTHY FOLIAGE.