Thanks, Maddielee. I won't be able to catch it on tv, but maybe it will be available later.

I did find this article on the NBC website, which explains the problem pretty well from the perspective of patients and their families:

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/megyn-kelly/florida-s-billion-dollar-drug-treatment-industry-plagued-overdoses-fraud-n773376

satine_gw thank you for your post - sharing that type of information is rare and needs to be done more. We are woefully uneducated and judgmental regarding addiction in this country. I hope your daughter continues on a path of health and well being and wish you restful nights - I'm certain there were many nights with little peace for you in the past. We've walked a similar path and come out the other side.

Satine, thank you for your post. I'm so sorry your family has had to go through this, and so glad your daughter was able to get the help she needs, but she's actually lucky she began her battle so long ago. Today it is much harder to find legitimate sober homes.

My next-door neighbor's son fought a similar battle about ten years ago and the situation was totally different than it is now. Back then, the sober homes he was in were just to help people.

You, too, DLM2000. This is so true:

We are woefully uneducated and judgmental regarding addiction in this country.

So many of my neighbors (some of whom are themselves addicted to things like lorazepam+alcohol although they don't realize it) regard this as a sign of innately flawed character. Sigh.

Thank you for sharing, Satine. A few months ago I shared that DS2 got addicted to drugs while in college and ended up in prison. He's out now, but after seeing many P. docs in prison (the only thing prison is good for) is that he developed bipolar disorder while in college, which is the usual age it rears its ugly head.

After trial and error with meds, he's finally on the right med. Knock knock knock!

If it wasn't for prison I know he'd either be dead or homeless somewhere. We did everything we could to help him, but we simply could not afford rehab.

It galls me that our country cannot take care of the elderly, people with addictions which is a disease, and mental illness. If they did that, there wouldn't be many in prison, or that many funerals.

I always include the elderly in my rants. lol

ETA: Bipolar leads to drug addiction if not diagnosed immediately.

I am so sorry for everyone and their loved one's going through or have gone through this. It hasn't hit our family or friends, but it still doesn't keep me from worrying and wanting to prevent this horrible epidemic consuming so many people. I really don't hear much about it in my state as I do others, but it seems to be spreading more and more.

Those of you who know someone, would you mind sharing how your son, daughter, aunt, uncle, friend, etc. starting doing it in the first place? Educate me please-because right now I want to keep my 14 year old in a bubble!

Thank you for your stories. By the time I wrote my above post, I see Oakley wrote hers too.

What state are you in, olliesmom?

Oklahoma

eta: I'm sure it's in Oklahoma in some areas maybe just not as prevalent as in some areas as others. Or, maybe I've been in a bubble LOL not funny I know-but partly true.

Well, but that's the thing, olliesmom. We know about it in the states, most particularly here in FL, where the people come from other states to try to get help, but until dodgy sober homes start appearing in your neighborhood it's pretty much a hidden thing. Even the 'death from overdose' maps are deceptive, because they tend to indicate states with big sober home populations, but not the states where the people who died lived and got addicted in the first place.

These poor folks being taken advantage of by this disreputable industry are not stereotypical crackheads or like the movie version of drug addicts; they're normal middle-class people in terrible trouble who assumed that people who say they can help meant it.

Yes, many people with mental illness get involved with illicit drugs because they cannot afford medical treatment and the drugs are available on the street. That is one way people get involved with drugs. I know several who have gone that way. Being able to afford treatment for mental illness, and having it available in more areas, would go a long way to preventing many other more expensive tragedies.

IMHO, only the uneducated view drug and alcohol as a character flaw. And I mean either educated in the traditional sense, or educated because someone in their circle has suffered.

And I do not know who could think mental illness is a character flaw ... earth-is-flat people maybe, IDK?

These are malfunctions of the human body, and there is no question at all that health insurance should treat these ailments.

KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN YOU VOTE.

Further, I can sympathize with not wanting to raise a family in a neighborhood surrounded by transient non-family groups of people in recovery. This is why we have zoning; multifamily vs SF vs commercial etc. The activities and goals are different. Moreover, as the report clearly shows, these facilities need to be regulated for the good of the patients, too.

I understand the "halfway house" concept but it does not need to be in a neighborhood; the patients are not establishing bonds in a community; they are learning how to live with more freedoms. That can happen anywhere.

My niece and her husband bought a house next door to a halfway house 6 years ago and have never had a single issue. It is government sponsored, not private but I don't know if that makes a difference.

It is important to have halfway houses in neighbourhood communities. Many of your neighbours within your community are alcoholics or addicts and taking them out of their community for treatment can de-stablize bonds with friends and family. It can also create issues with maintaining or finding employment within their own community. Our province is trying to build halfway house in communities to answer the needs of the specific communities so that those who need help aren't being sent away from their support.

Ollisemom, unlike cocaine iirc, opioids are very much a rural problem, not just an urban one.

http://www.businessinsider.com/drug-overdose-rates-by-state-2017-4

"In 2005, central and southern states like Oklahoma and Louisiana had the highest (overdose death) rates." If you look at the charts, it also had among the highest rates in 2014; in 2015, the latest data, OK was in the second highest category for overdose death rates.

As far as prevention, I'd love to hear other's thoughts. In my immediate family we have one alcoholic (very high functioning but serious liver damage). That person started drinking in his teens.

In my extended family there is a young man who was on heroin, got treatment in FL, relapsed, and now gets some sort of shots and has been doing very well for about a year. All I know is that he started using pot in HS, and I recall being shocked that his good friend's parents were totally ok with this (providing pot and a place to smoke it), which drove his mom crazy because she didn't want him to smoke pot at all. I also saw somewhere that Colorado is #2 in the rate of overdose deaths? I know a lot of people will disagree w me but I DO wonder if maybe marijuana is actually a gateway drug after all, a term now used teasingly.

Not everyone has the option and it sure is not foolproof, but one reason I have my kids in a small, private school is because private schools can, and do, kick people out. Public schools cannot and so they deal with a lot more personal problems, incl drugs. This doesn't always work; you will hear stories that the private school kids have all the money to buy drugs. But the private school my kids are in is small and the deans and advisors know everyone one and everything. You may think I am just missing something, but I am pretty highly confident there is zero drinking or drug use or dealing on campus or at school functions, and because of our board roles we know a lot about what goes on.

By contrast, one of my kids goes to boarding school and that is, I think very high risk for experimenting. My personal assessment is that she is way to focused on school work and too competitive for any nonsense like that, and her school has a published rule that you are kicked out for drinking or drugs, no questions asked. Still there is a lot of unsupervised time.

The other thing, and this is kind of random, but I don't believe in letting things slide when they are teens. I had a friend tell me recently that when her teen daughter came home from a date she suspected she had been smoking pot. My advice -- if you thought it, I can almost guarantee she was. Don't sugarcoat it and nip it in the bud right away.

I also have very strong feelings about sleepovers. I do not understand them at all for teen boys (excuse the sexism) and I believe that by the time they are teens,sleepovers are bad news. I always try to have them at our house, and they can only happen a handful of other places.

I would also say to try to pay attention to your teens moods and behaviors and not just attribute them to "that age". I think unhappy teens are at the most risk. Try to keep them involved in things and don't ignore signs.

All that said I have no real clue. My eldest is a senior, my youngest is just starting HS this fall so I am new to this. I think a fair amount of it is probably an inborn susceptibility.

It is a horrible scourge and we are failing miserably at helping people with these issues.

It is government sponsored, not private but I don't know if that makes a difference.

It sure does! Anyone can run a sober home, and around here anyone does. If you didn't read the article I linked up-thread, please do. I'm pretty sure govt-run homes don't encourage people to shoot up and relapse so they can collect more money from them for going through treatment again.

Olliesmom, the most Opioid addicted county in America is Montgomery County, Ohio. Would never had thought that.

NBC News Report

Mtn, I guess I do live in a bubble, have never heard or seen that about Oklahoma. If it is rural, Oklahoma has a lot of rural towns, so I can totally see that. I live in a college town and I am just now seriously thinking about this, since my son is getting older. I have, however, for years now, tried to scare him about drug use. He is an athlete, so is very into fitness and pretty vain about his looks, so I remind him of the commercials of people with no teeth, sores on their skin, etc. My mom died of lung cancer-so I tell him pot is smoke and can do just as much damage. He has plans for the future after college, so I am hoping and praying he stays on course.

My friends and I have a deal, that we ALWAYS tell each other if they hear anything inappropriate our kids have done. I have gotten notified once about my son, by a couple of my friends on the same thing, not too serious and not drug-related and I was happy to know, and we dealt with it. He knows there are people looking out. My goal is to have him be the one to "know" its wrong and have the willpower, regardless of peer pressure. Anyway, I'm rambling now and have an appointment in a few minutes.

I could write a book.

I'm doing this from memory but the numbers are approximately correct.

In the US 3 billion prescriptions are written each year.

Of these 400 million are for opioid painkillers.

Think about that.

My nephew got started in middle school trading pills around with other kids. Mostly kids would trade their add drugs for opiods found in their parents or grandparents medicine chests. It got more serious in high school. One of the top public school districts in the country.

The most popular drugs were sold over Xbox - oxy, percocet, etc. Yeah, they're playing Call of Duty, but it's so much more than that.

The pills are expensive and get more difficult to access. The addict turns to heroin or fentanyl which is cheap and available.

Long story short, at 25 he's clean and starting life over again from square 1. More than a couple of his friends are dead.

Interesting aside - I believe states that have medical or legalized Marijuana have fewer per capita prescriptions for opioid painkillers.

An interesting article about how the opioid epidemic began here.

JN - this was what I saw when i was looking for OK data (below). There may be more current data. You make a good point about painkillers. Everyone who has had dental surgery or whatever has some bottles in their medicine cabinet. DH and I found that most of the time we would take 1 or 2 or none. We dont get them anymore and if we need one we have it. Just one bottle in the house with probably 3 pills.

Colorado

Colorado ranks second in the nation for prescription opioid abuse.

Source: The Denver Post

My DS started abusing OxyContin when he was 19 and working at a Country Club. This was in 2003. Some one at the club had easy access to the pills and they would go to parties after work and snort them. He and his girlfriend became addicted and when the person who had the pills got arrested and there was no longer easy access they both turned to Heroin. He dropped out of college and it was hell on earth for the next 10 years.

We live in one of the most highly rated public school districts in the country and the problem is pretty big here. 4 of my DS friends from high school died from over doses and several have spent time in jail. One of his HS friends was in the HBO special "Addicted" (you can still watch this on HBO but the material is pretty dated). I still think she is having issues with recovery and she is 35 now. She has been to jail and numerous rehabs.

The whole recovery business is a scam IMO. It drains families of money and doesn't get the addict the type of help they need. Back in 2005 one month in a recovery program was $20,000 and it was not covered by insurance. They just cycle people in and out of programs and pocket the profits.

From The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/02/marijuana-cannabinoids-opioids/515358/

[Interestingly, patients already seem to be replacing opioids with marijuana for chronic pain. A handful of observational studies have also found correlations between states legalizing medical marijuana and a drop in painkiller prescriptions, opioid use, and deaths from opioid overdose. And in 2016, Dan Clauw and his colleagues published a survey of patients with chronic pain who started patronizing a medical marijuana dispensary. They cut their previous opioid use by two-thirds.]

Yeah I make no case one way or other, it was just that the Colorado rank at no 2 for overdoses that caught my eye

If people can figure out a way to scam a segment of the population, they will. This is just an other example of preying on people desperate to help their family members. I'm sure some are probably legitimate. I have no basis.

The whole opioid epidemic is not just in rural areas. Our city has declared war on this growing problem. A smallish city yes, and surrounded by rural areas, but that's not where all the activity is going on. DD is an ER nurse and they see it EVERY SINGLE DAY. Last week there were 5 in one day. Probably more involved, but they suspect some didn't get affected as badly and escaped before the ambulance arrived. I believe there were at least 2 that died who didn't respond to treatment. DD is of the opinion there should be another term besides 'overdose' because there is no 'normal dose' of this stuff.

The problem with some substances is the dealers are cutting it with fentanyl or other junk that the users are reacting to in a bad way. So it's not just the addiction that is killing people (notice I didn't say kids, it's adults too), but it's the addition of things that can have bad effects when taken into the body in excess or unexpectedly.

I know whenever DH and I have any kind of minor to major surgery in the past 10 years, we get a bottle of the stuff. Then we take anywhere from 1 to 3 tablets and then switch to Aleve or Advil and that's it. But some people think they have to take the whole bottle of pills because that is what they were given. Next thing, they are addicted, don't you think? I can see that happening.

When my teen had his wisdom teeth out, the dentist gave a prescription for 16 pills of oxy. My husband would have let him take all the pills. He doesn't believe you can get addicted this way and that if a doctor gives them to you then it is fine. Very bright man, but pharmacology is not his field!

I gave DS one right after the procedure, hid the pills and gave OTC pain meds. He managed just fine without the oxy.

But it is a battle I fight with my DH, as he thinks that kids will smoke pot in college and we should just accept it. I don't agree, specially when kids are still dependent on parents for their spending money.

chispa - hold strong to your belief and your constant talking to your kids about the pitfalls of drugs. Yes, they may experiment with smoking pot but hopefully mom's voice will be strong enough and loud enough in their heads to prevent them from doing it a second or third time.

The overperscribing of drugs, especially pain medications, is rampant and I think it's part of the problem.

Our city and province has a horrific opioid crisis and it continues to get worse. Our city is particularly bad and the first responders are paying a huge emotional toll. The province has started to cycle in first responders from outside of the metro area in order to give the local first aid people a break.

My niece who is 30, is a paramedic and sees first hand the devastation and deaths that this crisis is causing. A friend of hers who she has known since kindergarten, died last week of a fentanyl laced cocaine overdose. Fortunately she didn't get the call.

Everyone is suffering through this crisis.

I am a firm believer after my experience that pot does lead to more drugs. I asked DS about it and he also firmly agreed.

Ollie, DH & I went to OU in the 70s where pot and drugs were everywhere. As luck would have it, our two sons chose to go to OSU. Of course now we are a "house divided."

I didn't worry about DS1, although I accidentally found out he started smoking, now he's quit. He told me he tried pot once, and wasn't that fond of it. End of story.

However, I knew DS2 was smoking pot at times and when he chose to go to OSU I was very happy, and I remember saying this out loud, "there are hardly any drugs there." That's what I heard.

Well, by the time he was a Jr., he was addicted to meth and ectstacy. (sp) Come to find out, that great college town with no drugs, it's one of the drug capitals of OK! I-40 is the big hwy bringing drugs in from Mexico.

Ollie, OK. is rampant with drugs. But pain pills are the only ones getting attention.

When DS2 went to prison he called me and asked if I could get him into the better prison. My Senator lived close by so we chatted in person, and he said at the time he is scared to death for his grandchildren. I think I opened his eye's a bit since we're both in a rural area, but close to the City.

And he did get my son transferred shortly after our visit. :)

About meth faces being scarred, teeth looking bad, etc. Don't let that fool you. I said earlier that DS2 was (and still is) my "Gap kid." His teeth were great, showered daily, wore nice clothes, never in a million years did I suspect meth.

One last thing Mtn, no matter how studious your child is (DS2 was the same way) never trust them. Some can hide drug use easily. OTOH, DS2 became moody around 18, and it was bipolar disorder beginning in him. Pay attention to the moods of your teens and 20 somethings.

Oakley, thank you so much for generously sharing your terribly difficult experience with your DS2's drug problems. It's so easy to discuss diaper rash and sleep problems among parents, but once our children get older and the trouble gets trickier, everyone clams up and we are left in our own islands trying to navigate difficult waters without as many points of information as we would like.

Ditto what Rita said. Thank you all for sharing.

Without divulging too much, both DD's went through some difficulties in High School. Once the line is crossed, you learn who is involved and what they are doing in the broader sense.

The difference is who gets caught. So, when I heard parents talking about how their child would not do such and such, well, let's just say I knew differently.

Satine and Rory, I am so sorry for not mentioning you in my thanks. Sometimes I read threads from the bottom up as I jump from one thing to the next. Your stories make such a difference for all of us parents.

I have often thought of starting a thread about advice for parenting older children. As I send my eldest off to college this fall I can see so many things I fretted about that were not worth fretting about and a few I should have paid more attention to.

ETA Please forgive me if I missed someone's invaluable contribution.

eld6161 - I completely agree with you. Never assume that your child is not doing drugs. I'm not saying that they are but just because they're getting straight A's and doing volunteer work doesn't mean that they are not going to experiment.

Just to be clear I already said that I see the most potential for trouble with my daughter who was away for school, not because of her or anything about her personality or behavior, but simply because of the relative freedom she has. But I was also saying that, unlike other schools, they have (and enforce) a policy where you get expelled the first time; no second chances. And given how hard the kids work to get in, it serves as an effective (not foolproof) deterrent. I wasn't implying that good students don't do drugs; in fact esp among boys I would think the arrogance and invincibility that some of the star students have might make them over-confident about their ability to handle it?

Two points above I really liked. One, do not trust them. I totally agree. I was a really good kid and a relative square but even I could not be trusted, lied about where I was sleeping, hid booze and ...etc.. Teens cannot be trusted, and that is why the plaintive "don't you trust me" (add puppy eyed look) doesn't phase me in the least.

The other point above that is so true is that sharing honest experiences about raising teens is so helpful, but maybe because so much of parenting today is seen as a competition, people are just not very forthcoming. I do like the idea of a parenting youngs adults thread!

Mtn - re your second point - It's not just that it's a competition, in my neighbourhood it was all about how perfect your children are - the straight A's, the volunteer work, never giving the parents a second of trouble. I'm the first to admit that my kids weren't and aren't perfect. They're people, I'm not perfect why should anyone assume that my kids are such..

That's why, in my neighbourhood, parents wouldn't share, because they wanted to give the illusion that their kids are perfect. BS.

The community that I live in happens to be next to one of the richest communities in the country (mine is definitely not on par) and I remember talking to my doctor about the differences between the two wrt raising kids and I assumed that with all the advantages that parents would be able to offer their children in that community that their lives were "perfect". His comment to me was that the only difference between the two was the price of the drugs at the schools that the dealers charged and that drug use among teens was on par between the two communities.

I don't know why it surprised me but it did.

This is an example of our sober homes here in Florida. They are praying on addicts. It's sick! I'm sure they aren't all bad but there are plenty of bad ones.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.palmbeachpost.com/news/just-west-palm-beach-sober-home-owner-accused-patient-brokering/5CpEpP70QQYm0pDi4zIJZI/amp.html

I'm so glad my kids didn't go through a drug or alcohol stage. My heart really goes out to all of you who have had to deal with something so ...oh, I just don't have the words. I can't imagine how helpless you must have felt.

And it's everywhere in FL. I noticed just the other day that the first neurologist they sent me to several years ago has a shiny new building labeled "The <his name> New Life Clinic." When I looked it up, he's in on it, too, using the hook that he's a real MD. (Don't send your kids/friends there.) Sigh.

This thread really shows how widespread a problem addiction has become. So much sadness here.

A big part of the problem is that families are so desperate to get help for their loved ones but there is so little good info about how to go about getting help. This whole crooked industry that has sprung up claiming to treat addiction is just one big scam. They have no incentive to get people clean. Clean people don't need rehab or sober living. Also, throwing addicts all together in a rehab or sober living facility is a terrible idea. My DS told me the best place to get new drug connections is in rehab.

I think if I was looking for a place for a loved one I would completely skip Florida altogether.

This just came through my news feed.

I think if I was looking for a place for a loved one I would completely skip Florida altogether.

S FL's cities have been trying to get that message out for a long time:

http://wlrn.org/post/south-florida-cities-america-don-t-send-your-drug-users-here

“We’re inundated with children from other states,” said Amoroso. “My message would be, stop sending your children and your loved ones to South Florida because we’re sending them back in body bags.”

I hope the new law makes some difference, but it's not enough. Still, it's a start.