I've never seen lipage that was so bad it caused a shadow - that does look bad.

The John Bridget Tile forum as well as responses here from pros may give you leverage against the contractor.

http://www.johnbridge.com

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1

Theres $25 handymen, $20 subs, and $50-75hr tile craftsman, who did you hire and in turn who did they sub to.? what does your contract say about tile Installation meeting industry standards?

It's the fact that he refused to come out that is the most outrageous part.

Tell him you refuse to write the check until he does!

Industry standards? Your contractor has lost his mind.

My LFT floor originally had out of industry standards lippage and it could not even be seen in pictures like yours is. That is not within standards at all. A quatrter's depth is too much lippage by most professionals. My GC is the one who told me it needed to be fixed. It is your gc's name, credit and reputation on the line maybe remind him of that...

I hope you have not paid him? If so, I doubt you'll get much satisfaction if that is the kind of work he does. "Industry standards" my foot.

Whoa! Your photo looks like it was taken mid-demo. That has got to be one of the worst tile jobs I have ever seen. There's no planet on which this install would be deemed acceptable. TCNA allows for some lippage, but nothing like that. The amount of lippage allowed depends upon the thickness of your tile. You can find that allowance here:

https://www.tcnatile.com/images/pdfs/Lippage%20and%20Warpage%20-%20What%20You%20Need%20to%20Know.pdf

don't forget to review them on home advisor

Great idea, truey. And while you are at it, OP, be sure to ask him about his "sub"s credentials. That is not the work of a legit tile contractor. More like an unskilled laborer. Or a two year old.

3rd graders with instructions could do better than that.

I was thinking a person would have to be high or drunk to do a job that bad.

I am so sorry that this happened to you. It truly is very unfortunate that some people will call themselves professionals and provide a job such as this, and is even more unfortunate that they could possible state that this meets industry standards (assuming that the pictures are not deceiving, which does not seem like it). Is the entire bathroom like that, or just some areas?

Did you have a contract signed? If so, was there a payment schedule? If you have not yet paid him for the tile, I would hold of on the payment until the issue is resolved.

It is very important to always verify that your general contractor has a license, and his subs do as well. Am not sure where you are located, but in many areas (and I would guess in most of the US), by law he needs to provide you with the information for the sub.

As mentioned above, be very clear with contractor that you will post reviews of his work, if that still does not work, there is always the contractor state board.

what standards? it's not close to any standards. one can break his neck on these floors even when not wet.

the person who installed it was under influence..

your contractor also doesn't give impression that he's reasonable.

if he has a name that is his true name-he should know his name is about to be mixed with mud, for his lies and irresponsibility

if he's some hack then it's harder

but I do hope he's a real person

and that you didn't pay him yet

The nice thing about having pictures of the work is that you can just post them and say "an example of XXX's work" and it's not slander or libel or anything.

Thank to everyone who replied. The sad part that I did not bore you with is this is the second attempt at installing my tile. The first attempt looked extremely bad and they ripped it out and started all over again. They are licensed contractors and actually had great reviews on different websites.

Anyways, I just received another text from the owner while typing this. He once again said this up to "industry standard" and believes the Contractor State License Board will be good with this work. I still owe him some money and told him I'm not paying him.

Ill attach a few few more photos for your enjoyment. Two were taking during the day. Pay attention to the grout lines along the wall.

File a complaint with the BBB immediately!!

Are you in California? Please do call his bluff and file a complaint with the CSLB. You say he is a licensed contractor. Did you actually verify his license to see if it is in good standing? Did you verify the license of his sub contractor? Of course, having a license is not a guarantee of actual skill.

That is outrageous! They did not resurface the floor when they redid it. I have never seen anything like that. The internet allows anybody to have a great rating and have the appearance of a trustworthy Co. It is all an illusion. We live in a time where all businesses are built off of advertising hype and not the product or service being sold.

Tell him you are going to start using the bathroom on his recommendation that it is up to Industry standards. That is a liability in regards to someone injuring themselves not just a cosmetic issue.

Lay a 4' level across the floor and take some pics with a ruler perpendicular to it. If your pictures depict the actual measurement it is off he has zero choice. Obviously I would only accept a refund as you have already attempt dot allow him to try and fix it.

I hate seeing stories like this and truly hope it works out for you. Hire someone else and move on.

To be fair to your GC, the non lit pictures' lippage looks like it might be within standard. There are other issues though regardless of lippage!Can a quarter rest in the lippage in multiple grout seams? If so it is too much lippage if not it might meet standard.

I know my contractor, who did right by me and I trust, said that like dry wall screws, if the lippage is seen in light but not without light shining on it it could still be considered ok if the lippage is less than 1/16 th of an inch. I believe the simple test was to use quarters in the grout lines. However, the real test accounts for grout line widths, tile size and other factors to be calculated to determine acceptable standards.

Jhmarie...if the installer was high (not drunk) the installation would have been PERFECT...it just would have taken a lot more time! :)

lol janet. depends on a substance, that one..)))

This is my first time posting here and I am thoroughly impressed with the honest feedback you provided. I am in California and will be filing a complaint with the CSLB and BBB. Sadly I did my research, but apparently not good enough.

Roarah, thanks for your reply. Can you please elaborate on what you mean with the quarter? Are you saying placing a quarter on its edge and see if stands by resting it on the lippage?

I really appreciate all of your replies.

Acturally the lippage should be no more than the thickness of a creidt card.

If you can slide a coin or credit card on the floor and it catches on the edge of a tile, that's lippage.

TWI = Tiling While Intoxicated

Friends don't let friends tile drunk!

Sigh. The "good news" is this is the SECOND attempt!!!! Yay! Building law requires that you allow the contractor (the person who is on the contract with you) ONE attempt to CORRECT the problem! ONE!

You are DONE! They messed up the FIRST attempt. This is the "correction". This is all you have to offer. At this point, you are well within your rights to bring in a REAL tile professional, have them assess the project and offer a solution. You can then hire them to do the job - and you send the BILL to the ORIGINAL CONTRACTOR!

Honestly. You are in the PERFECT situation. You are now allowed to have this done by someone else at the GC's expense. You have to honour the payments. The work was done. But you only pay the GC what you ORIGINALLY owe him/her. And only upon completion.

Once the 'real' tile setter has finished, you offer payment to the original GC for that segment of the job (or whatever your contract states is the "next" payment). It is up to the GC to pay the 'real' tile setter out of those funds!

Done and double done.

If you still owe them any money, hold on to it.

Millwork man, doesn't the grout line, tile offset and tile size dictate allowable allowances of lippage? Just for future readers.

good point about the law. I had to allow my orginal hired tiler a chance to make both a floor and shower tile right before I could get my money back to hire another guy.

This is what my GC did to show my tiler how off he was with lippage. I did request the herringbone pattern so more lippage than a 1/3 off set is to be expected I was told but this was too much

he fixed it redoing it with a leveling system with no damage to my heat mat

From the TCNA and you can se it is not as simple as just using a credit card or coin there are many factors considered before it is out of standard. Lighting is one.

What is acceptable variations in the height of adjoining tiles?

Variation in the height of adjoining tiles is called lippage. This is defined in the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) standard A108.02, Section 4.3.7: "Lippage refers to differences in elevation between edges of adjacent tile modules."

The ANSI standard notes that the perception of lippage is influenced by many factors such as:

A) The allowable thickness variation of the tile modules when judged in accordance with manufacturing standards.

B) The allowable warpage of the tile modules.

C) The spacing or separation of each tile module, which would influence a gradual or abrupt change in elevation.

D) Angle of natural or manufactured light accentuating otherwise acceptable variance in modules.

E) Highly reflective surfaces of tile modules accentuating otherwise acceptable variance in modules.

Additionally, variations in the plane of the substrate will also affect lippage. In many cases, when tile is installed by the thinset method over an uneven substrate, the installed surface will not meet lippage standards.

What is the allowable warpage of a tile?

The ANSI A137.1 standard defined allowed warpage according to the type of tile. For a paver tile (commonly used on floors) the allowable warpage is defined as follows:

5.3.1.2.6 Warpage. When measured as described in ASTM C 485, the warpage of each tile in the sample shall not exceed 1.0 percent along any edge nor 0.75 percent on either diagonal.

From this formula the allowable warpage can be determined.

"he fixed it redoing it with a leveling system"

It's gonna be difficult to use a leveling system with those 1" ocatagons :)

Just kidding.

Honestly, scrape it off, pour SLC (self leveling cement) - and that floor will be flat, ready to tile.

People, homeowners. You must try harder to Hire the right crew. Im betting $ there is no real "Contractor" behind this mess and the CSLB not gonna get contacted.

You get exactly what you put into it. Put as much time into vetting a Professional tile contractor as you do shopping HOUZZ for designs and dreams. stay off angies list, thumbtack, the local Bar and search out professional tile contractors. If a deal smells to good to be true well you know where this is going.

Id challenge the OP to prove to us here and now there is A vetted contractor Pro behind this mess. Doubtful.

Once the 'real' tile setter has finished, you offer payment to the
original GC for that segment of the job (or whatever your contract
states is the "next" payment). It is up to the GC to pay the 'real'
tile setter out of those funds!

This may be the way things are done in Canada. What a horrid thought! The courts are jammed in the states, but this would make them total chaotic.

Here in the states we sign contracts with contractors. You are legally obligated by signing your "x" on the line, as well as the other party signing the contract. And if you think you could enter into a contract and harm a third party, that in itself would be jail time.

I can't imagine any contractor willing to set tile or any other work, and being told they have to collect from someone else. Really, who in their right mind would fall for this?

Picture it. You're going to pay someone in full, who will not properly do a correct job. Then expect them to pay the person that did the correct job? Totally outlandish.

"Once the 'real' tile setter has finished, you offer payment to the original GC for that segment of the job (or whatever your contract states is the "next" payment). It is up to the GC to pay the 'real' tile setter out of those funds!"

I don't get this. If the homeowner hires another tile setter and then pays the original contractor for the work, what obligates the GC to give that money to the new setter? If the new tile setters contract is with the Homeowner, then the Homeowner is responsible for paying him. If the new tile setter is expected to be paid by the GC, his contract should be with the GC.

Thatsmuchbetter, I hired a pro GC who hired a TCNA tiler and I still had issues using the highest bid tiler and one who "knew" the best standards. I wanted LFT, herringbone and fifty/ fifty offset and thinner grout lines, I knew some lippage might happen and asked my tiler if I should pay for the leveling system. He thought he could do it without the system and without charging me the extra.

He was trying to save me money for he knew my DH was just diagnosed with cancer a week after the addition started. He was wrong but than fixed it all the second try. Mistakes happen even when a homeowner researches, interviews and does not cheap out and hires the best recommended and qualified people. Sometime decent tradespeople also misjudge their abilities with harder tile patterns and sizes...

My GC had my back and pushed the one sub he hired that failed to produce the standards he sold us in his bid. The tiler succeeded to provide a nice finished tiled bathroom on his second try at no additional cost, other than time, to me. sometimes we do all the right prep and still face unwanted results.

In my state, CT. I had to allow the tiler a chance to make good on his provided services before my GC could try to recover money from him. If he could not provide a finished product satisfactorily than my GC could sue to recover the costs to fix the mess but not before we gave him a chance to fix it first...

@ Roarah

So they cheated you the first time, tried to shave a cost by skipping lippage tuning. Sounds like you hired A GC with poor decision making, and oversight willing to "allow his sub" to take chances and likely at a saving for their pockets only it backfired, still as they apparemtly didnt notice the lippage themselves?? HMM....they decided to push on and try to pass it by you.

The fact that they were then meraculously "able" to deliver to you what they should have the first time further proves the novice approach from both parties.l. . So they got lucky and proved right in front of you that they tried to pull a fast one.. I fear you were dealing with a questionable code of ethics and are lucky you hired A contractor and got all the proper paperwork in order.

Now Roarah im placing a bet on you, that next time it comes to Allowing A GC to insert a Tile sub to your project you will be very involved and asking all the right questions you didnt know to ask the first time, stuff you learned about in the unfortunate process, knowledge you gained thru the TCNA, ANSI and industry guidelines.

Im not saying paying the top $ is the answer. Its the process in which you the Homeowner get involved and Vet. its where you source your knowledge from and the due dillegence you put into it. Its very true in 2017's interweb, HGTV, houzz, thumbtack, porch Everyones a PRO or DIY gone pro world, we all have to have the smarts to see thru it and try harder to wade thru it. Soon enough the "poor me" just wont be valid, sign of the times im afraid. Be vigilant.

I researched the tile industry standards prior to hiring my GC. I researched waterproofing and I got references and multiple bids. The GC was the one who saw the lippage and brought it to my attention. No one tried to pass it off as ok....The tiler thought he could do it and in fairness without artificial light and while shoes were on the lippage was not very noticable. my GC noticed it in the am after grouting cured while in socks and the tiler was back that day to repair it. I got the leveling system used at no extra charge to me so it was all ok in the end.

My tile choices also contributed to the first outcome and the tiler never faught me or my GC he just replaced and repaired it. I would use my tile size and pattern again and my GC in a heartbeat. My GC will most likely not reuse the tiler....I might give him a second chance though because just like you expect a customer to live and learn I think he might have learned a bit since than too.

You are too kind and dare i say A rare case of A "caring" homeowner.

Any tiler that has been around any tile block. Knows exactly what and when lippage is not acceptable. as such they dont proceed to continue to finish the entire floor job before CORRECTING it.

You hired A GC. he has proven in front of you that he himself is not qualified to hire tile subs, nor manage A tile sub effectively with oversight of installation or catching issues before you the toe stubber did.

You had a novice learning on your job and poor oversight from a GC perhaps unqualified at project managing.. The fact that you choose to proceed and be understanding is you alone being a kind person .

Real Tile professionals dont think they can do it, they know they can or cant based on field experience, or they pass on the tile, the job, or at worse catch their own goof and fix it without you or the GC seeing anything funky.

You can protect them and feel like they did make it right in the end and its a nice gesture on your part, but lets not pretend you had a real tile pro fumbling around on a simple herringbone floor in which they had every right to measure tile and approve or disaaprove it for install. Novice in every way.